The evangelical vote

spacegnome said:
so you don't even know what scripture they are referring to, are not curious enough to ask and yet still make the claim that it is not in there?

i don't really have an opinion on this and haven't looked into it that deep. many scholars believe it is a direct prescription for abortion but of course there will be apologist doing everything they can to make it sound like that is not the case.

this comes after drinking the prescribed drink offered by the priest.




Numbers chapter 5
Here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.” (NIV)
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I've read the Bible and understand enough to know it isnt there.


And Lol. You need to read the verses before that.

It talks about the priest taking a woman accused of adultery and giving her bitter waters. If shes innocent then she will be fine, but if she's guilty her thigh will rot and belly swell.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse​

No one could get abortion out of that text if they read the whole thing. Now if she was unfaithful and lies about it then she will be cursed to be sick and miscarriage.
 
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PainIsLIfe said:
I've read the Bible and understand enough to know it isnt there.


And Lol. You need to read the verses before that.

It talks about the priest taking a woman accused of adultery and giving her bitter waters. If shes innocent then she will be fine, but if she's guilty her thigh will rot and belly swell.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse​

No one could get abortion out of that text if they read the whole thing. Now if she was unfaithful and lies about it then she will be cursed to be sick and miscarriage.
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cursed by a priest and by God that results in the death of a fetus. that is abortion from drinking bitter waters. many biblical scholars absolutely believe it is about abortion. the reason you took hours to reply is because you had never heard of this perspective and argument. you formed your opinion of the text in a few hours and with a preconceived argument in mind.

but none of that is my point and i said as much already, my point is that you should not refute what is said BEFORE you have looked into it and not even knowing what scripture people are referring to when they make these claims.
 
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jeremyemilio said:
Yes. But then God revealed himself to Abraham as a Deity who wasn't into that sort of thing. That's more or less what the incident with Abraham and Isaac is about. This was pre Moses and pre Law, remember.
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i know that and i actually have a profound reverence for scripture. im not using that to discredit scripture at all. however it is really important to know that those peoples, Abraham's people did practice human sacrifice and scholars do not believe it ended completely even after Abraham had his revelation with God. it was still practiced and took a while to stamp out.

human sacrifice and the fact that the pre jewish peoples were also polytheistic ie pagans are among some of the most interesting aspects of the old testament for me in terms of how God deals with humanity over long periods of time and leads them.
 
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ultramanhyata said:
That is inaccurate. Though it is true that the law of Moses very clearly differentiates between the accidental killing of a child in utero and the accidental killing of a birthed human being. And makes the punishment for the latter greater than the punishment for the former.
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can you provide some sources for this-- all of them actually. id like to read up on this perspective more deeply.
 
blaseblah said:
That's all it really comes down to. They vote on this one issue and forget the other GOP stances like the death penalty, kicking people off healthcare, and just general lack of charity.

And the irony is that God actually approves of abortions in the Bible.
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Andddd a further irony is that there would be far fewer abortions if they voted left.
Increased spending and focus on social welfare, education,and healthcare would reduce the number of people that seek abortions.
The free market doesnt care about fixing social problems. They would get more of what they wanted if they actually practiced Christianity

The abortion debate has turned into "pro life" vs baby murderers, as if people want to get abortions for funsies.

The muh freedoms party wants to force people to do things, instead of providing the incentives and resources needed for them to make better choices on their own.
 
spacegnome said:
cursed by a priest and by God that results in the death of a fetus. that is abortion from drinking bitter waters. many biblical scholars absolutely believe it is about abortion. the reason you took hours to reply is because you had never heard of this perspective and argument. you formed your opinion of the text in a few hours and with a preconceived argument in mind.

but none of that is my point and i said as much already, my point is that you should not refute what is said BEFORE you have looked into it and not even knowing what scripture people are referring to when they make these claims.
Click to expand...

1st of all it took hours to reply because I went to sleep. It was midnight here on the east coast.

2nd, no Biblical scholars claim that is about abortion. It says that if she lies she will be cursed and unable to have children in the future.

3rd, he's had 2 days to supply a retort and hasn't offered one. He (like you) probably read something stupid on the internet and never bothered to check it out for yourself.

But at least you're hear offering a half assed excuse for him. Good job I guess?
 
spacegnome said:
cursed by a priest and by God that results in the death of a fetus. that is abortion from drinking bitter waters. many biblical scholars absolutely believe it is about abortion. the reason you took hours to reply is because you had never heard of this perspective and argument. you formed your opinion of the text in a few hours and with a preconceived argument in mind.

but none of that is my point and i said as much already, my point is that you should not refute what is said BEFORE you have looked into it and not even knowing what scripture people are referring to when they make these claims.
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No. Not many. Most believe this in a misinterpretation, which is why it only shows up in the NIV, and no other reputable translation. Most scholars believe this is referring to a woman becoming barren.

(Regardless, as I have suggested, it's pretty much a witch trial that is being described. It's pretty ugly. But the abortion interpretation is mostly put forward very cynical way and doesn't hold up very well under close scrutiny.)
 
spacegnome said:
can you provide some sources for this-- all of them actually. id like to read up on this perspective more deeply.
Click to expand...

Sure.

Exodus 21:22-23

“When men fight and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other misfortune ensues, the one responsible shall be fined as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on judges’ reckoning. But if other misfortune ensues, the penalty shall be life for life.”
 
ultramanhyata said:
Sure.

Exodus 21:22-23

“When men fight and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other misfortune ensues, the one responsible shall be fined as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on judges’ reckoning. But if other misfortune ensues, the penalty shall be life for life.”
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thanks yes ive read that i meant more theological commentary on it and historical context and such.
 
PainIsLIfe said:
1st of all it took hours to reply because I went to sleep. It was midnight here on the east coast.

2nd, no Biblical scholars claim that is about abortion. It says that if she lies she will be cursed and unable to have children in the future.

3rd, he's had 2 days to supply a retort and hasn't offered one. He (like you) probably read something stupid on the internet and never bothered to check it out for yourself.

But at least you're hear offering a half assed excuse for him. Good job I guess?
Click to expand...

again, ive told you i don't have a position on the issue beyond you refuting it without sources. i will look into this further but will be very surprised if no biblical scholars think its about killing a child in the womb. ive ran across several articles already stating just that. but again that is not my position and i will look into it further and post what i find.

based on the character of God in the old testament i will not be surprised at all to find such information.
 
I think it all comes down to "actions speak louder than words". It's the same reason so many blacks and latinos are leaving the Democrats and voting for Trump this time around.

<Fedor23>
 
Go read the democrats platform, if you still can't understand then you never will.
 
Evangelicals are the biggest phonies in America. It’s no surprise they worship the least religious president known to man.
 
HOLA said:


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LOL at the black dude next to Trump. What the hell is wrong with those people?

Hopefully I will live enough to see religious people treated as the mental health patients they should be.
 
HereticBD, hello!

HereticBD said:
It's called putting people in power that will be more favorable to them.
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is that what its called?

you mean, like the way President Bill Clinton signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act?

President Clinton today signed into law legislation requiring the Government to meet stringent standards before instituting measures that might interfere with religious practices.
The new law, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, overturns a 1990 Supreme Court ruling that set a looser standard for laws that restrict religious practices.

President Clinton hailed the new law at the signing ceremony, saying that it held government "to a very high level of proof before it interferes with someone's free exercise of religion."
J. Brent Walker, general counsel of the Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs called the new law "the most significant piece of legislation dealing with our religious liberty in a generation."
https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/17/us/clinton-signs-law-protecting-religious-practices.html

hmmmf.

Joe Biden can be a good Christian all he wants, but...
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lol. why is there a "but", after "Joe Biden can be a good Christian all he wants"?

i mean, i'm assuming true believers also believe that process matters, no?

- IGIT
 
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