Crime Texas: Two fat hillbillies kill a Father over garbage

[Slick_36]

5 shots fired that ain't no manslaughter bud. They were shooting to kill.

That's what guns do, they kill. There's other weapons to incapacitate a person. If he really felt he was in enough danger that he needed to use his gun, it doesn't make a difference to me how many shots he fires to get the job done. But I don't buy the danger bit, he would have left if he felt that danger. It's like standing in front of someone at a crosswalk and pulling your gun out because you see they don't have a registration sticker, when they get pissed and eventually drive forward, you shoot. Sure you can say you were in danger, but you created that danger by trying to be the law.

 

[Ghost in the Dark]

That's what guns do, they kill. There's other weapons to incapacitate a person. If he really felt he was in enough danger that he needed to use his gun, it doesn't make a difference to me how many shots he fires to get the job done. But I don't buy the danger bit, he would have left if he felt that danger. It's like standing in front of someone at a crosswalk and pulling your gun out because you see they don't have a registration sticker, when they get pissed and eventually drive forward, you shoot. Sure you can say you were in danger, but you created that danger by trying to be the law.

In order to be charged with murder, the defendant must have knowingly and willingly caused the death of another person.

To be convicted of manslaughter, a defendant must be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have recklessly caused the death of another person. As opposed to murder, intent does not need to be proven in order to convict someone of manslaughter.

/

I get what you're saying, however IMO the fact that 5 (five) shots were fired definitely indicates knowingly and willing causing death. If say one or even two shots were fired, and the victim died, perhaps it would be possible to argue that the shooter(s) were willing to kill but did not have that intent. With 5 (five) shots, I don't see any doubt about their intent being possible.

 

[lfd0311]

That's what guns do, they kill. There's other weapons to incapacitate a person. If he really felt he was in enough danger that he needed to use his gun, it doesn't make a difference to me how many shots he fires to get the job done. But I don't buy the danger bit, he would have left if he felt that danger. It's like standing in front of someone at a crosswalk and pulling your gun out because you see they don't have a registration sticker, when they get pissed and eventually drive forward, you shoot. Sure you can say you were in danger, but you created that danger by trying to be the law.

Where that argument falls apart, where it turns into murder, is when the continue to shoot him after he is no longer armed and is retreating. You can’t shotgun blast a dude to the face/side of the head who is unarmed and retreating and claim to be defending yourself. That’s why it’s murder.

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

Why was she filming him physically threaten two armed fat hillbillies?

So she could stroke it to the tape later. She was clearly an enabling douchebag judging from her comments after the fact. She loved to watch her man beat up on weaker people. Made her feel powerful.

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

5 shots fired that ain't no manslaughter bud. They were shooting to kill.

You always shoot to kill.

 

[Slick_36]

In order to be charged with murder, the defendant must have knowingly and willingly caused the death of another person.

To be convicted of manslaughter, a defendant must be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have recklessly caused the death of another person. As opposed to murder, intent does not need to be proven in order to convict someone of manslaughter.

/

I get what you're saying, however IMO the fact that 5 (five) shots were fired definitely indicates knowingly and willing causing death. If say one or even two shots were fired, and the victim died, perhaps it would be possible to argue that the shooter(s) were willing to kill but did not have that intent. With 5 (five) shots, I don't see any doubt about their intent being possible.

Where that argument falls apart, where it turns into murder, is when the continue to shoot him after he is no longer armed and is retreating. You can’t shotgun blast a dude to the face/side of the head who is unarmed and retreating and claim to be defending yourself. That’s why it’s murder.

If you're shooting someone because you're so afraid that you think they may genuinely kill you, you're not going to be rational, calm down, and stop the very instant the threat is neutralized. It's traumatic and scary, it's not something you're used to or prepared for. The shotgun is another story though, he wasn't close to him and he had already been shot and was no longer a threat by the time he decided to shoot. I think I'd give the old guy manslaughter and the younger one murder.

 

[Slick_36]

You always shoot to kill.

If you're a cop. And that's because they're trained and have multiple tools to handle a threat, a gun is for removing the most direct and dangerous of immediate threats for them. It's not unreasonable to shoot a person in an area they have a better chance of surviving if you're just a regular citizen who's only got a gun and is that close..

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

If you're a cop. And that's because they're trained and have multiple tools to handle a threat, a gun is for removing the most direct and dangerous of immediate threats for them. It's not unreasonable to shoot a person in an area they have a better chance of surviving if you're just a regular citizen who's only got a gun and is that close..

Like where? And if you say 'the leg' I swear to God...

 

[Slick_36]

Like where? And if you say 'the leg' I swear to God...

Anywhere but the chest and head really. I know there's arteries in the leg and you bleed out quickly, that's why I said less lethal and not non-lethal. Dude was fucked no matter what since the 911 operators were busy. Really meant there was even more reason to avoid this unnecessary conflict and leave since they knew medical assistance wouldn't be available if things did get violent which they figured it would, hence the guns.

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

Anywhere but the chest and head really. I know there's arteries in the leg and you bleed out quickly, that's why I said less lethal and not non-lethal. Dude was fucked no matter what since the 911 operators were busy. Really meant there was even more reason to avoid this unnecessary conflict and leave since they knew medical assistance wouldn't be available if things did get violent which they figured it would, hence the guns.

Sorry but you're just wrong. You always aim for center mass.

 

[lfd0311]

If you're shooting someone because you're so afraid that you think they may genuinely kill you, you're not going to be rational, calm down, and stop the very instant the threat is neutralized. It's traumatic and scrary, it's not something you're used to or prepared for. The shotgun is another story though, he wasn't close to him and he had already been shot and was no longer a threat by the time he decided to shoot. I think I'd give the old guy manslaughter and the younger one murder.

Their intent is the key. How they got into that situation in the first place and why. That isn't going to look favorably for the Millers.

 

[Ghost in the Dark]

If you're shooting someone because you're so afraid that you think they may genuinely kill you, you're not going to be rational, calm down, and stop the very instant the threat is neutralized. It's traumatic and scrary, it's not something you're used to or prepared for. The shotgun is another story though, he wasn't close to him and he had already been shot and was no longer a threat by the time he decided to shoot. I think I'd give the old guy manslaughter and the younger one murder.

I understand your POV although I cannot concur on the first shooter.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Why do you think that makes your point more valid? It actually makes it less valid.

I don't even have to respond to the rest of your novella. Your very first sentence is so asinine, silly, and counter to basic logic that it invalidates the rest of your views.

You think the reaction of the average person to the video, which is that Howard was a violent "rage monster" and aggressor and the Millers were defending themselves, doesn't bolster that very claim, and is irrelevant to how a jury will view that same video?

Try not wearing a tinfoil hat before you post, Internet lawyer.

 

[lfd0311]

I don't even have to respond to the rest of your novella. Your very first sentence is so asinine, silly, and counter to basic logic that it invalidates the rest of your views.

You think the reaction of the average person to the video, which is that Howard was a violent "rage monster" and aggressor and the Millers were defending themselves, doesn't bolster that very claim, and is irrelevant to how a jury will view that same video?

Try not wearing a tinfoil hat before you post, Internet lawyer.

Concession accepted. You don't know who any of those "normal people" are. They're just posts from screen names on YT that happen to align with your views. This was sad and embarrassing. You haven't attempted to back up a single one of your claims and just walked away from them the second you got called out on them. I guess we can all see what account @VivaRevolution is trolling under when he's gotten the dubs.

 

[TheSlothMan]

After reading the story and watching the video I can't believe any sane person would believe this was a justified shooting. You can't just pull a gun out of your shorts or shoulder a shotgun because some guy yells at you. What danger were these asshats in before they pulled their guns? The guy is big but it's still a 2 on 1 situation. Plus the guy was already incapacitated before slackjaw son cocked and fired the shotgun. Completely remove guns from this situation and how many people would be dead right now?

Everyone involved in this incident is a total moron, but the Miller's should be locked up for a long time. People like the Millers are the absolute last people on earth that supporters of the 2nd amendment should be defending. Types like this are used in arguments in favor of stricter gun laws lmao

 

[Patrick Carey]

After reading the story and watching the video I can't believe any sane person would believe this was a justified shooting. You can't just pull a gun out of your shorts or shoulder a shotgun because some guy yells at you. What danger were these asshats in before they pulled their guns? The guy is big but it's still a 2 on 1 situation. Plus the guy was already incapacitated before slackjaw son cocked and fired the shotgun. Completely remove guns from this situation and how many people would be dead right now?

Everyone involved in this incident is a total moron, but the Miller's should be locked up for a long time. People like the Millers are the absolute last people on earth that supporters of the 2nd amendment should be defending. Types like this are used in arguments in favor of stricter gun laws lmao

Agreed these dumbasses make all gun owners look bad. Really it's amazing the liberal media has not attempted to make this a bigger news story. If an ar was used or it was an interracial issue I'm sure they would have.

But actually, in Texas you absolutely can pull out a firearm if someone starts yelling at you in a violent way.

We know Orange shirt man started yelling at the old man to throw the mattress back in the dumpster. I would argue that anyone yelling at you constitutes a threat. How many times do people tell at others without it being mildly threatening? i dont see how that is irrational personally. I mean we absolutely have video of him threatening these dumbasses.

https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/texas/tx-codes/texas_penal_code_9-04

I think why they got charged with murder is their enticing language. If they hadn't said shit like "I doubt it", "take yer swing", "fuck you cocksucker" etc I can see them not even being charged

 

[Ghost in the Dark]

Agreed these dumbasses make all gun owners look bad. Really it's amazing the liberal media has not attempted to make this a bigger news story. If an ar was used or it was an interracial issue I'm sure they would have.

But actually, in Texas you absolutely can pull out a firearm if someone starts yelling at you in a violent way.

We know Orange shirt man started yelling at the old man to throw the mattress back in the dumpster. I would argue that anyone yelling at you constitutes a threat. How many times do people tell at others without it being mildly threatening? i dont see how that is irrational personally. I mean we absolutely have video of him threatening these dumbasses.

https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/texas/tx-codes/texas_penal_code_9-04

I think why they got charged with murder is their enticing language. If they hadn't said shit like "I doubt it", "take yer swing", "fuck you cocksucker" etc I can see them not even being charged

Miller Sr. said he would kill him as well.

 

[Patrick Carey]

Miller Sr. said he would kill him as well.

Yeah but from what I remember hearing that was in reference to a hypothetical attack, like if I told someone "if you assault me I kill you" is not the same thing as "fuck you, youre dead"

 

[Ghost in the Dark]

Yeah but from what I remember hearing that was in reference to a hypothetical attack, like if I told someone "if you assault me I kill you" is not the same thing as "fuck you, youre dead"

Agreed - however I think that helps conclude that his intention was to kill rather than to self defend.

 

[TheSlothMan]

But actually, in Texas you absolutely can pull out a firearm if someone starts yelling at you in a violent way.

Is that the case even if they instigated the incident by throwing the guy's mattress out of the dumpster right in front of him? Does that mean I could go around dumping peoples trash cans out on the street until someone inevitably yells at me and then pull my gun?

Even if Mr Miller was within his rights to do that, they supposedly held a gun to the lady's head afterwards. That's certainly not acceptable seeing as how she was no threat and just shows that these guys are a couple of scumbags.