Systema -"A Phd for those with batchelors, you're talking to guys who haven't graduated high school"

[eternaldarkness]

As complete and utter garbage.

Here's the Systema history presented on their web site: https://russianmartialart.com/whatis.php
It is completely fake and has nothing to do with real martial arts history in USSR and Russia.

Their "Master" https://russianmartialart.com/founders.php present himself as Colonel who worked for Prosecutor General office with medals and awards.
However, there is no information on any government sites about him. He is fake. Here are the links: https://hanmooye.livejournal.com/19067.html (Google translate is your friend).

There are only two authentic martial arts coming from Russia - Sambo and Combat Sambo. Both are mainly based on Judo and Jiu-jitsu. If someone tells you about "Spetnaz training" they are selling you shit.

and here i was thinking that hool fights in the snow, while half naked was a style. i'm disappointed.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I actually don't wish and never had such intent to teach anyone for h2h like stuff, self defense etc like stuff. Im not that much interested in it.
Plenty of different instructors available, so for society no problem to find and choose them.

i personally don't really believe in self defence. situational awareness and avoiding conflict is far more important than any technique. you can spend your whole life training and still get stabbed in the back or lynched by a half a dozen people.

 

[eternaldarkness]

i was bitten on the face by a dog once... what technique would you recommend using in such a situation. all this talk of "self defence" is kinda cracking me up a little.

 

[Russky]

i was bitten on the face by a dog once... what technique would you recommend using in such a situation.

Standup technique, for sure. If you are standing dog cannot bite your face. Just watch your balls.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Standup technique, for sure. If you are standing dog cannot bite your face. Just watch your balls.

i got bitten on the face because i was feeding it elbows, i ended up picking it up with my teeth (it was a large 40kg+ dog). technique is improvisation and what works in a given situation.

 

[Russky]

I did some research on Russian internet about this whole "Systema" thing. I did not train in any of those so this is second or third hand opinion. There are at least three different phenomena called "Systema".

- Ryabko/Vasilyev "Systema" considered McDojo in Russia.

- Kadochnikov System. Military survival training that includes training in various arms, medicine, military deception, as well as hand to hand combat based on combat sambo. Here one has to remember that Kadochnikov objective was to train missile operators. They are located far away from the war zone and their expected enemy is very well trained special forces who are trying to sabotage launching pads. If things come to hand to hand combat missile operators are expected to lose. Military deception and awareness has much higher priority than fist fighting. For the h2h encounter they would practice just one technique to perfection to give them one single chance to do or die. The technique is picked by the trainer and should match the skill set of the trainee. The trainer is expected to be a high level professional with exceptional skill set. H2h combat training has very high importance as a part of psychological training and has little real combat value.

- Kado "Systema". Kadochnikov and his work were popularized in Russian media. Some people viewed that as an opportunity to make money. The quality of training varies depending on the instructor.

 

[Dexter]

It would be nice to add, brother, that in cases where representatives of the above styles were called for full-contact sparring, they always put people from their schools who had vast experience in DIFFERENT martial arts/combat sports. Something like - one year of studying the Systema, ten years in combat sambo / full contact karate / boxing, etc.

 

[TheMaster]

I did some research on Russian internet about this whole "Systema" thing. I did not train in any of those so this is second or third hand opinion. There are at least three different phenomena called "Systema".

- Ryabko/Vasilyev "Systema" considered McDojo in Russia.

- Kadochnikov System. Military survival training that includes training in various arms, medicine, military deception, as well as hand to hand combat based on combat sambo. Here one has to remember that Kadochnikov objective was to train missile operators. They are located far away from the war zone and their expected enemy is very well trained special forces who are trying to sabotage launching pads. If things come to hand to hand combat missile operators are expected to lose. Military deception and awareness has much higher priority than fist fighting. For the h2h encounter they would practice just one technique to perfection to give them one single chance to do or die. The technique is picked by the trainer and should match the skill set of the trainee. The trainer is expected to be a high level professional with exceptional skill set. H2h combat training has very high importance as a part of psychological training and has little real combat value.

- Kado "Systema". Kadochnikov and his work were popularized in Russian media. Some people viewed that as an opportunity to make money. The quality of training varies depending on the instructor.

Some of these points about Kadachnikov seem off. A system for missile operators?

But can you explain the following as I am genuinely curious;

The order of honour; established by Presedentual decree No. 442 of March 2, 1994 to recognise high achievements in government, economic, scientific, sociocultural, public, sport and charitable activities.

There are multiple sources claiming Vladimir Vasiliev is recipient of this prestigious award for his contribution to spreading Russian culture.

https://www.russianmartialart.com/founders.php

I was surprised but should be verifiable and major crime if was a false claim. Pavel Popovich is a recipient of the 'Order of Honour' so I dont know if it is supposed to be same award.

 

[Russky]

Some of these points about Kadachnikov seem off. A system for missile operators?

Yep. Check his Bio.

But can you explain the following as I am genuinely curious;

The order of honour; established by Presedentual decree No. 442 of March 2, 1994 to recognise high achievements in government, economic, scientific, sociocultural, public, sport and charitable activities.


There are multiple sources claiming Vladimir Vasiliev is recipient of this prestigious award for his contribution to spreading Russian culture.

Presidential decree 442 establishes the award itself. It does not award this order to anyone. Here's a link to the decree: https://legalacts.ru/doc/ukaz-prezidenta-rf-ot-02031994-n-442/

https://www.russianmartialart.com/founders.php

I was surprised but should be verifiable and major crime if was a false claim. Pavel Popovich is a recipient of the 'Order of Honour' so I dont know if it is supposed to be same award.

My search returns two Vasiliev awarded with Order of Honor. Neither one is Vladimir:
http://docs.cntd.ru/search/intellectual/q/О+награждении+орденом+Почета+Васильева/r/13
Nothing for Popovich:
http://docs.cntd.ru/search/intellectual?q=О+награждении+орденом+Почета+Попович

You can ask them for the Presidental decree number, I'll find it for you.

 

[SandisLL]

I don't have interest does Kado work or doesn't. I don't care.
One from Kado adepts in europe is former high school wrestler and competed in sports sambo too. He even is with pretty legit uni diploma & degree. Qualification: sambo coach & sports degree.
Besides this he is like 230 - 240 lbs and does have pretty legit brown belt in striking art that uses full contact.
Maybe he does have other qualificiations too.
For him of course even aikido might work.

 

[TheMaster]

Yep. Check his Bio.

Presidential decree 442 establishes the award itself. It does not award this order to anyone. Here's a link to the decree: https://legalacts.ru/doc/ukaz-prezidenta-rf-ot-02031994-n-442/



My search returns two Vasiliev awarded with Order of Honor. Neither one is Vladimir:
http://docs.cntd.ru/search/intellectual/q/О+награждении+орденом+Почета+Васильева/r/13
Nothing for Popovich:
http://docs.cntd.ru/search/intellectual?q=О+награждении+орденом+Почета+Попович

You can ask them for the Presidental decree number, I'll find it for you.

So any idea about this 'order of duty and honor' and 'order of loyalty' they speak of?

Would seem someone somewhere should be able to either verify or tell them to stop making a claim to a government medal.

 

[Russky]

Would seem someone somewhere should be able to either verify or tell them to stop making a claim to a government medal.

It is not crime to make false claim about government medals in Russia. Neither is false claiming that you have Russian medals in the US or Canada.

The more I read about Kadochnikov the more questions I have. I cannot find presidential decree for his medal of Honor as well. Another medal he claimed (Regional Krasnodar medal "For Sport development") does not even exist. He claimed receiving gratitude from Commander in Chief - no order.
Russia has exceptional legal databases available online. US lawyers would sell their moms if they get something similar to Russlan Consultant+ or Garant document bases. If there was an order I should be able to find it.

I also read that teams trained in Kadochnikov system tried to participate in Combat Sambo tournaments. Failed miserable, as expected.

 

[TheMaster]

It is not crime to make false claim about government medals in Russia. Neither is false claiming that you have Russian medals in the US or Canada.

The more I read about Kadochnikov the more questions I have. I cannot find presidential decree for his medal of Honor as well. Another medal he claimed (Regional Krasnodar medal "For Sport development") does not even exist. He claimed receiving gratitude from Commander in Chief - no order.
Russia has exceptional legal databases available online. US lawyers would sell their moms if they get something similar to Russlan Consultant+ or Garant document bases. If there was an order I should be able to find it.

I also read that teams trained in Kadochnikov system tried to participate in Combat Sambo tournaments. Failed miserable, as expected.

Well lets just say its inconclusive. Since there are other sources for Popovich's award but it didnt show up in your search either...

Really with due respect you dont sound like someone who trains martial arts. Maybe u would make a good combat historian or researcher tho.

No one has disputed or argued against the original premise; that systema has great methods for enhancing other styles but is not a good base itself. The same tired arguments are used. So sambo beat some systema guys in a sambo tourney. Is this supposed to be surprising?

There are a host of great things they do in systema that legit martial artists value. The principles can enhance other arts.

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/rigan-machado-train-systema-it-will-improve-your-jiu-jitsu/



Yes I can hear already, so "Rigan is a sell out, he gives celebrity belts, he rents floorspace from Martin Wheeler" yada yada...

But does he really have to encourage his students to train something bogus or is it possibe principles of flow and sensitivity and relaxation are highly compatible with high level martial arts?

Another simple example, Systema does ALOT of knuckle pushups. Paralleled only by Kyokushin in how much they do this, but they also do this from more angles and with calisthenics. Great for punching without gloves and not easy, quite painful especially in the beginning but will help with structure and power.


Do the normal flat knuckle fist pushup variety, this guy is a bit hardcore doing them tilted on the angle of knuckles alone and on concrete.


Rather than simply doing your book research online, how about u try doing just 5 or 10 'weak' systema knuckle pushups on hardwood or marble floor then talk.

Then maybe add a couple of barefist full power straight punches without hip rotation, on a wallbag filled with small pieces of stone (an excercise done sometimes in WC for knuckle conditioning, often bag is filled at earlier stages with beans or sand)

I guarentee if u actually do some of these excercises u would learn quickly some respect for systema and certain 'soft styles' which often involve tough training and conditioning.

In fact u should be proud, your comrades have developed a great System by re-engineering and expanding on Internal martial arts principles and combining it with elements of what works from different styles

Nothing to be ashamed of my friend.

 

[j123]

i got bitten on the face because i was feeding it elbows, i ended up picking it up with my teeth (it was a large 40kg+ dog). technique is improvisation and what works in a given situation.

He set up you nicely with a dog version of an upkick

Wear a motorcycle helmet

 

[Dexter]

TheMaster

Facepalm.jpg
It seems like that you have zero experience in MA/combat sports. Or this experience is limited to some aikido or other style that is useless for a normal fighter - some dregs about "art not for a fight, universal harmony, self-improvement, fireballs from the ass..."

 

[TheMaster]

TheMaster

Facepalm.jpg
It seems like that you have zero experience in MA/combat sports. Or this experience is limited to some aikido or other style that is useless for a normal fighter - some dregs about "art not for a fight, universal harmony, self-improvement, fireballs from the ass..."

Well my experience is with Judo for the combat sport.

And Wing Chun for the training for combat without sport. So no Aikido sorry.

But I suppose for someone like you who seems naive enough to believe that 'combat sport' (or even just what has been seen most commonly in combat sport up until now and does not reflect yet the full evolution of combat sports) is the totally of martial arts combat, will be hard for you to understand.

Luckily there are plenty of experienced guys including those who competed at the highest levels of combat sports who agree with and understand what I am saying.

 

[Russky]

I guarentee if u actually do some of these excercises u would learn quickly some respect for systema and certain 'soft styles' which often involve tough training and conditioning.

How can I tell Systema pushups from bare knuckles pushups that we did with our Judo coach when I trained in Russia?

I have shodan in Judo and blue belt in BJJ. I am interested in martial art history, that's right.

Just FYI: there is no "other source" for medals in Russia, only President of Russian Federation office. All documented and available online. Ask your Systema friends for the order number.

 

[Dexter]

Well my experience is with Judo for the combat sport.

And Wing Chun for the training for combat without sport. So no Aikido sorry.

Lol. So, you're from the WC Rabbit Punchers aka "I'm no sportsman, I train for real self-defense" club? Then, no more questions, Your Honour (c). These hands masturbations have nothing in common with combat. It is not surprising that you consider the Systema a working style.

How can I tell Systema pushups from bare knuckles pushups that we did with our Judo coach when I trained in Russia?

These dumbasses do them on concrete. They seem to like getting a bonus in the form of periosteum inflammation.

 

[TheMaster]

How can I tell Systema pushups from bare knuckles pushups that we did with our Judo coach when I trained in Russia?

I have shodan in Judo and blue belt in BJJ. I am interested in martial art history, that's right.

Just FYI: there is no "other source" for medals in Russia, only President of Russian Federation office. All documented and available online. Ask your Systema friends for the order number.

Good, then if you trained BJJ listen to Rigan and do some systema

Listen to Dan 'Wolfman' Theodore, BJJ blackbelt and Gokor/Gene Lebel blackbelt and train some systema.

Use your own mind more like I do, and analyse how flow and sensitivity helps hand fighting/ grip fighting and technique and many areas, and train some internal arts/systema if you want to raise your game.

Good that your Judo coach made u do knuckle push ups. Now Just do on hard floor not mats.
Otherwise pretty much same in Systema but you move your body around from the push up position alot to strengthen wrist from different areas.

 

[SandisLL]

sensitivity

after this:

of knuckles alone and on concrete.