STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[Lavitz]

Wait are you fucking robbing me?!

High ground!

 

[VanteMMA]

That doesn't change the fact that it's one long story and that to isolate the Phantom Menace, as if it stands in its own, is wrong.

The question here is: Does The Phantom Menace have a protagonist?

And the answer is yes, Anakin Skywalker. He's introduced in Phantom and then developed in Clones and Sith.

Those three films--TOGETHER--constitute the story of Anakin Skywalker's rise as a Jedi and subsequent turn to the dark side.

The Protagonists in the Phantom Menace are Qui Gon, Obi Wan and to a lesser extent, Padme. Yes, Anakin is introduced, and he plays a part but he is in no shape or form the agent that propels the story forward. He's set up to be the protagonist in the following films, in the Phantom Menace.

Which reminds me, Padme in the Phantom Menace is a better character than Rey is in these two pieces of turds Disney has been passing off as films. Thats really saying something!

Fuck Disney.

 

[Guestx]

The Protagonists in the Phantom Menace are Qui Gon, Obi Wan and to a lesser extent, Padme. Yes, Anakin is introduced, and he plays a part but he is in no shape or form the agent that propels the story forward. He's set up to be the protagonist in the following films, in the Phantom Menace.

Which reminds me, Padme in the Phantom Menace is a better character than Rey is in these two pieces of turds Disney has been passing off as films. Thats really saying something!

Fuck Disney.

So you're agreeing with RLM then that there is no protagonist? Because you just named three people.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Well at least you liked Revenge of the Sith. I think it's the best SW movie in the entire canon. At least so far.

Im not sure what my favorite is...ive only seen most of them once or 2x, but i don't think Revenge of the Sith is a crazy choice to have as your top, as blasphemous as that probably seems to hardcore fans

 

[VanteMMA]

Also, Anakin > Luke.



It's true. You could prove that shit in a court of law.

Revenge of the Sith had the ability to be better than Empire, but its execution was lacking.

Empire is my no.1 SW film. Revenge is a close 2nd.

 

[Guestx]

When I was a kid, the school had this public speaking contest every year, where every kid had to write and deliver a 5 or 10 minute speech about whatever they wanted. So some kids would research some topic they were passionate about, dig up lots of facts and in some cases deliver them charismatically, and sometimes make the whole class or school interested in the topic. Sharks, baseball, whatever. There would be maybe four rounds to the whole thing. First in your class, to get a top ten, then again to get a top three, then top three from every class, and then a final five in front of the whole school or something like that. Maybe three rounds.

Anyway, one year we had a kid write a speech about "how hard it is to come up with a topic for this speech contest." And at first it sounds like, wow, what an unexpected and fresh idea. But all he did was ramble for five or ten minutes about how he watched TV and couldn't think of anything, and then he went to bed and couldn't think of anything, and then he had breakfast and couldn't think of anything, he went to the library and flipped through books and nothing seemed like the right topic, and then he asked the teacher for ideas and none of them worked, and then he went to the movies and couldn't think of anything, and then he rode his bike around and couldn't think of anything...

And in the first round of the contest, everybody laughed for the first minute or two at the topic, and liked the rest well enough. And he got through to the next round, and the second time we heard it it was like, yeah kinda funny. And it kept losing steam as it got from round to round and people had heard it before, and they realized that he'd really written nothing of substance and just chickened out of the assignment and listed a bunch of dumb ass things he did while not thinking of a topic.

But it was kind of fresh and unexpected, so he ended up making it to the final round that year.

And then the next year, ten fucking kids wrote a speech about how hard it was to write their own speech.

This is kind of what I'm talking about when I reference the danger of rewarding Rian Johnson here.

And to be honest, I think what he did was even worse in some ways. Some of the mocking of the fans in his own movie is kind of like standing up in front of the class and delivering a speech about "why our teacher Mr. Wilson is a f****t." You can research it well and make perfect, brilliant arguments, but you still might get a zero.

I understand what you're getting at.

It seems to be that it's only going to be a problem though if Disney attempts to repeat the same formula. Like I was saying earlier, what is JJ going to do now?

Will he do something in the spirit of Rian Johnson? Or in the spirit of George Lucas? Or, perhaps, something completely different which doesn't really fit either of those paradigms?

I do take your meaning about repetition. I mentioned earlier that I feel like The Last Jedi to some extent was subjected to The Guardians of the Galaxy Effect. That is, films that deal with relatively serious subject matter being lightened up significantly with humor. Not that Star Wars hasn't always done this--all of the films have--but I thought that this one did it in a particularly modern, GOTG sort of way.

The thing is, for me, it worked. But I'm not sure I want to see the same formula applied to future films.

 

[Guestx]

Wait are you fucking robbing me?!

High ground!

It's a damn shame, I think, that the stories that were told through the animated SW shows weren't live action.

They could've been a lot more effective that way.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I understand what you're getting at.

It seems to be that it's only going to be a problem though if Disney attempts to repeat the same formula.

Well, what I said (now long ago) in this thread earlier, was that I fear someone will come in and be intentionally commissioned to take what was done to Luke here, and do it to Rocky, Rambo, Kyle Reese, etc.

Like I was saying earlier, what is JJ going to do now?

Will he do something in the spirit of Rian Johnson? Or in the spirit of George Lucas? Or, perhaps, something completely different which doesn't really fit either of those paradigms?

Your guess is as good as mine. I wouldn't blame him at all for being personally insulted by The Last Jedi. In fact, I'd question his intelligence if he weren't.

 

[Guestx]

Im not sure what my favorite is...ive only seen most of them once or 2x, but i don't think Revenge of the Sith is a crazy choice to have as your top, as blasphemous as that probably seems to hardcore fans

If you really want to get the full Star Wars experience you should devote a few nights to just sitting down and watch them all, from Ep 1 to Ep VII, with Rogue One dropped in before A New Hope. It's a hell of an experience.

And since we're talking about blasphemy, this is probably as good of time as many to mention that I've reviewed the "special edition" changes that George Lucas made to the OT and frankly a lot of the changes make sense to me.

 

[VanteMMA]

So you're agreeing with RLM then that there is no protagonist? Because you just named three people.

No. Did you not understand my post?

 

[Guestx]

Well, what I said (now long ago) in this thread earlier, was that I fear someone will come in and be intentionally commissioned to take what was done to Luke here, and do it to Rocky, Rambo, Kyle Reese, etc.

 

[BisexualMMA]

The destruction of Luke Skywalker is currently being praised by critics everywhere as the literary deconstruction of Luke Skywalker.

Some are considering this the Unforgiven of Star Wars, when it's quite a different approach.

 

[Lavitz]

It's a damn shame, I think, that the stories that were told through the animated SW shows weren't live action.

They could've been a lot more effective that way.

Wut?

TCW did a fantastic job. Made me actually enjoy RotS more.

Live action Savage or Robotic Maul would look too silly. Plus Dooku’s duels looked wizard.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

If you really want to get the full Star Wars experience you should devote a few nights to just sitting down and watch them all, from Ep 1 to Ep VII, with Rogue One dropped in before A New Hope. It's a hell of an experience.

And since we're talking about blasphemy, this is probably as good of time as many to mention that I've reviewed the "special edition" changes that George Lucas made to the OT and frankly a lot of the changes make sense to me.

That is actually on my to-do list probably sometime next month.
I have only watched one of the originals in its entirety

 

[Guestx]

No. Did you not understand my post?

Yes, I understand your post, but the question is whether or not there is ONE person who is the protagonist in the film. That one guy (or girl) who we follow and root for. (This is what RLM is asking.)

In any case, while I understand why you would identify all the good guys as the protagonists, I still think your interpretation falls victim to trying to isolate any of the prequel films as if they stand on their own. Just like Anakin's story continues beyond The Phantom Menace, so does Obi-Wan's. So does Padme's.

Consider what Wikipedia says about the term "protagonist":

A protagonist (from Ancient Greek protagonistes, meaning "player of the first part, (chief actor") is the main character in any story, such as a literary work or drama.

The protagonist is at the center of the story, makes the key decisions, and experiences the consequences of those decisions.

When you look at Episodes 1 - 3, these films tell ONE story, and that is the story of Anakin Skywalker. Everyone else is there to support that story. Obi-Wan is ultimately there for Anakin. Padme is also there to perform a specific function in Anakin's journey.

But anyway, we don't have to argue about it. If you view Obi-Wan as the protagonist of The Phantom Menace then that's perfectly fine. Like I said, I can see how you'd arrive at that conclusion.

 

[Guestx]

That is actually on my to-do list probably sometime next month.
I have only watched one of the originals in its entirety

Really? You seem to have strong opinions about TLJ for someone who has only seen one of the original films.

You definitely need to watch the whole series and you need to do them more or less back to back. I think it took me six days.

 

[Guestx]

Wut?

TCW did a fantastic job. Made me actually enjoy RotS more.

Live action Savage or Robotic Maul would look too silly. Plus Dooku’s duels looked wizard.

Frankly, most people who aren't kids just aren't going to watch it because it's animated.

I am fine with animation but even I gave it about five minutes and was like "This is for kids" and turned it off.

I'd totally be down for a live-action series though.

 

[Lavitz]

Frankly, most people who aren't kids just aren't going to watch it because it's animated.

I am fine with animation but even I gave it about five minutes and was like "This is for kids" and turned it off.

I'd totally be down for a live-action series though.

Shrugs*

You’re missing out then.

 

[VanteMMA]

Yes, I understand your post, but the question is whether or not there is ONE person who is the protagonist in the film. That one guy (or girl) who we follow and root for. (This is what RLM is asking.)

In any case, while I understand why you would identify all the good guys as the protagonists, I still think your interpretation falls victim to trying to isolate any of the prequel films as if they stand on their own. Just like Anakin's story continues beyond The Phantom Menace, so does Obi-Wan's. So does Padme's.

Consider what Wikipedia says about the term "protagonist":



When you look at Episodes 1 - 3, these films tell ONE story, and that is the story of Anakin Skywalker. Everyone else is there to support that story. Obi-Wan is ultimately there for Anakin. Padme is also there to perform a specific function in Anakin's journey.

But anyway, we don't have to argue about it. If you view Obi-Wan as the protagonist of The Phantom Menace then that's perfectly fine. Like I said, I can see how you'd arrive at that conclusion.

Honestly, I think if I had to choose one, it would be Qui Gon Jinn.

About Ep1 - 3 ultimately telling one story, I agree. And I think that's how a trilogy is supposed to work. The Phantom Menace did its job if it managed to set up Anakin as the protagonist of the next 2 films.

The OT is essentially one story too. Hell, Ep 1 - 6 is essentially the story of Anakin Skywalker and could arguably be considered one story told from 2 perspectives.

I do believe that both the OT and the PT had a level of planning that seems to be missing from the the Sequel Trilogy. After TLJ, its a given whoever's in charge of the grand arc gives zero shits about telling a good story with coherent characters, but more about ticking off boxes on a checklist.

Seriously, fuck Disney.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Really? You seem to have strong opinions about TLJ for someone who has only seen one of the original films.

You definitely need to watch the whole series and you need to do them more or less back to back. I think it took me six days.

Yeah, my opinions on the movie are solely on the movie as a movie, not as a SW movie. Which is why i find it even more hard to understand why actual fans of the series loved this one.
My problems with the movie don't have anything to do with canon, or how the Force works, or really even who characters are or aren't supposed to be. Im not that familiar with any of that to really criticize it.

Just what i saw on screen didn't make sense for a movie.
I saw TFA, didn't like it, but that movie left some questions that were supposed to be answered in TLJ, I felt like i got nothing out of this.

SW is a famous enough movie where i pretty much know the story without having seen it because it's embedded into pop culture. But this movie just felt like a tease to me.
I compareit to the Twilight series. I don't live in the states, so wasn't really aware of what the Twilight movies were about. They didn't get on my radar until the 2nd one. A girl i was dating at the time wanted to watch it in the theater with me, and she showed me a trailer and i was like "oh shit, Vampires vs Werewolves? Sign me up"
Needless to say, i didn't get the movie that was advertised. And that's how i felt about this.