Star Wars Discussion: Obi-Wan vs. Mace Windu

[KILL KILL]

Pretty cool. I also have always believed that scene was meant to show how much Obi loved Anakin. He's trying to teach him how to beat him even then- even as Anakin is trying to kill him. Obi had made it clear numerous times that Anakin was the greater Jedi than him, and that was true in every way except in inner spiritual peace. Anakin cannot accept his limitations. He cannot accept that sometimes bad things happen that no mortal can control. This is clear from the fight with Dooku. Dooku knocks Obi out, then Anakin destroys Dooku solo. Also, in the wars that we are not shown, Anakin saved Obi's life dozens of times in this way. But Anakin can't let go. Obi is on the run the entire time they're fighting. Finally, seizing opportunity, he grabs the high ground. He tells Anakin, "Stop being so damn proud! Defeat me another day. You can with ease." Anakin won't listen. Hubris ruins him. Some of my friends said that maybe Obi did this explicitly because he knew this was the only way he could defeat Anakin- by provoking his pride- but I think that he still genuinely believed that Anakin could be saved.

Anakin never mastered his fear of what he could not control. If he had, he would have been the greatest Jedi ever.

Pretty deep stuff.

A bit off topic bur Luke became everything that he wasn't though he never had the potential that Anakin did. In the Expanded Universe Luke was pretty much a god like jedi. No one could touch him. Of course I think his hardest fight was in the EU was his nephew Caed Solo so that doesn't really say much.

 

[Fat Abbot]

Luke and Anakin were equal in talent Id say

 

[Blitz55]

Pretty cool. I also have always believed that scene was meant to show how much Obi loved Anakin. He's trying to teach him how to beat him even then- even as Anakin is trying to kill him. Obi had made it clear numerous times that Anakin was the greater Jedi than him, and that was true in every way except in inner spiritual peace. Anakin cannot accept his limitations. He cannot accept that sometimes bad things happen that no mortal can control. This is clear from the fight with Dooku. Dooku knocks Obi out, then Anakin destroys Dooku solo. Also, in the wars that we are not shown, Anakin saved Obi's life dozens of times in this way. But Anakin can't let go. Obi is on the run the entire time they're fighting. Finally, seizing opportunity, he grabs the high ground. He tells Anakin, "Stop being so damn proud! Defeat me another day. You can with ease." Anakin won't listen. Hubris ruins him. Some of my friends said that maybe Obi did this explicitly because he knew this was the only way he could defeat Anakin- by provoking his pride- but I think that he still genuinely believed that Anakin could be saved.

Anakin never mastered his fear of what he could not control. If he had, he would have been the greatest Jedi ever.

I was about to post "I like it when Madmick goes deep."

But then I paused for a thought..."Holy Homo Sounding Batman"

Im glad I didn't post it, it would have been taken the completely wrong way.

 

[Madmick]

hater!

cints been hating on samuel l jackson since the overrated thread

Cint's right about Jackson, wrong about Whitaker. They should have used an unknown. Think about it. The only role in the entire prequel trilogy played by a known star that was any good was Ewan McGregor as Obi Wan. Christopher Lee was absolutely atrocious as Dooku. There wasn't a single redeeming quality to his performance. Jimmy Smits managed to come across so out of place that he destroyed any suspension of disbelief in the audience, and for a movie like Star Wars to work it needs the audience to forget themselves more than any other kind of movie; perhaps the only actor who was worse was Jackson who delivered his lines with the stilt of a character from Pulp Fiction or Don't Be a Menace. Well-known character actors Terence Stamp and Temeura Morrisson were wooden. Oliver Ford Davies, Hugh Quarshie, Pernilla August...all classically trained actors like Lee who just sucked. Lucas was equally terrible in his selection of child actors. He just blew it. As much as the terrible scripts and the ridiculous CG characters (chiefly Jar Jar Binks) sucked- it was casting that ruined that trilogy.

The best casting in the movie were young unknowns who hadn't yet reached an authentic stardom. Most of them were in small roles:
*Natalie Portman as Padme (launched her from a former child star into a superstar)
*Rose Byrne as Dorme
*Joel Edgerton as Owen Lars
*Keira Knightley as Sabe
*Ray Park as Darth Maul (launched his career as a martial arts film specialist)


He should have copied his own strategy from 1977. Even then, he should have kept in mind that Alec Guinness (the most famous actor in the original) didn't have any fight scenes except the wholly unimpressive swordplay duel with Vader that was more preoccupied with the history of those characters and symbolism than it was with being an interesting fight.

 

[Blitz55]

More than even casting, I still think it had more to do with how poor Lucas was at writing and directing actors. When you have some of those actors and they all come off so cardboard and not so good, something is wrong. Lucas was just making a lot of POOR decisions.
I got the opportunity to visit Skywalker Ranch (When they were working on EP II). A guy from Lucas Arts showed us around. He told us about getting to see an early draft of EPI early, and how good it looked. And when they all saw the final product they wondered what happened. Like the original idea was Anakin starts off more in his Teens. (Still, probably wouldn't have saved it from Lucas's poor direction and dialogue writing.


I wonder how much of 1977 was Lucas or Lucas trusting people around him with help. I really feel the new ones he was a one man show with a lot of people that either wouldn't or couldn't change his mind on things. So in that sense even Casting as you pointed out, he probably had to much say. I remember seeing that making of where it came down between the two kids to play Anakin, one was spot on with his lines and much much better, everyone seemed to like him, but it was Lucas who picked the kid who couldn't even remember his lines.

 

[Scrody]

We should really be talking lightsaber vs lightsaber. Not Force power vs Force power.

 

[bubkusjones]

More than even casting, I still think it had more to do with how poor Lucas was at writing and directing actors. When you have some of those actors and they all come off so cardboard and not so good, something is wrong. Lucas was just making a lot of POOR decisions.
I got the opportunity to visit Skywalker Ranch (When they were working on EP II). A guy from Lucas Arts showed us around. He told us about getting to see an early draft of EPI early, and how good it looked. And when they all saw the final product they wondered what happened. Like the original idea was Anakin starts off more in his Teens. (Still, probably wouldn't have saved it from Lucas's poor direction and dialogue writing.


I wonder how much of 1977 was Lucas or Lucas trusting people around him with help. I really feel the new ones he was a one man show with a lot of people that either wouldn't or couldn't change his mind on things. So in that sense even Casting as you pointed out, he probably had to much say. I remember seeing that making of where it came down between the two kids to play Anakin, one was spot on with his lines and much much better, everyone seemed to like him, but it was Lucas who picked the kid who couldn't even remember his lines.

He had too many "Yes" men during the prequels and not enough people with the balls or the clout to say "Sorry, George, that's stupid."

Now that George is out of the picture, and we've got a respected, accomplished director (who, despite some people's complaints, mostly about lens flare, delivered a top-notch Star Trek reboot), maybe we'll get a good story.


Honestly, though? I think the Star Wars saga is one of the few that would actually benefit from a reboot. The original trilogy was great, but it's dated and still rather cheesy. The prequels had their moments, but were ultimately unsatisfying, suffering from bad dialog, poor direction, poor casting and an over-reliance on CG (and not good CG at that, considering it's ILM). The worst thing? The inconsistencies between the trilogies, brought out because of their backwards creation.

I have my own ideas on how I'd like it done, but that's me. I may fan-fic it up for myself down the line, but it's not something I'd likely ever put out in the world.

 

[Killswitch91]

Windu was a master of Vaapad.The issue with the form is the fact that it's an extremely aggressive style that brings the user close to the dark side because the form requires the user to enjoy the battle and relish the satisfaction of winning. You use and channel your opponents darkness and aggression.

Kenobi mastered Soresu, a defensive, energy efficient style. Kenobi was more than happy to let someone hack at him until they tired or got frustrated and started making mistakes. Anakin fell the same way. His Djem So style was a perfect matchup for Soresu due to that forms aggressive style, along with his lack of control over his emotions.

I'll take Kenobi. I think he'd do much like he did in the Duel on Mustafar. Sit back and let Mace come at him until Mace gets irritated and starts over committing to attacks, or begins to tire out.

 

[adam199]

Obi Wan is the only one that legitimately owns two badass Sith. Darth Maul was on his game, on his way to defeating two jedi at once, and Obi Wan found a way to pull his shit together and beat him. He also beat a pretty damn powerful Anakin. He clearly lost the second time because he allowed it to happen. I've got Obi Wan in this one.

Like others have said, he does really great against overly aggressive fighters.

 

[Fat Abbot]

Clearly noone actually beat anybody in Star Wars, everyone who won only won because the other let it happen.

 

[SafyreSchool**]

Off topic, but found this^
Didn't know jinn was older than palpatine.

 

[Peteyandjia]

"You see my lightsaber? It's the one that says bad motherfucker on it."

"What ain't no star system I ever heard of. They speak Jawa in What?"

"Using the lightsaber to ricochet rapid laser fire: When you absolutely, positively got to kill every motherfucker in the room."

That's all I got.

 

[Razuu]

Off topic, but found this^
Didn't know jinn was older than palpatine.

Well the choice of actors sure didn't make it noticeable.

 

[Fat Abbot]

I completely and utterly disagree in this assessment.

Dooku was the best aspect of Ep 2 and 3. Christopher Lee's performance was suitably aristocratic and intimidating, though I am afraid his role was far too marginalized to be interesting. Having him only appear for about a grand total of 20 minutes was an exceedingly poor choice, and killing him off at the very beginning of ep 3 was bad.

I remember literally swearing at the movie when his head got chopped off.

Also: You are forgetting the excellent performance by Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine. He was splendid throughout the prequels. As good as he was in ROTJ.

Agreed on all counts. Though I think McDiarmid was much better in the prequels myself, but then again he had a lot more to work with.

 

[zackryder]

I completely and utterly disagree in this assessment.

Dooku was the best aspect of Ep 2 and 3. Christopher Lee's performance was suitably aristocratic and intimidating, though I am afraid his role was far too marginalized to be interesting. Having him only appear for about a grand total of 20 minutes was an exceedingly poor choice, and killing him off at the very beginning of ep 3 was bad.

I remember literally swearing at the movie when his head got chopped off.

Also: You are forgetting the excellent performance by Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine. He was splendid throughout the prequels. As good as he was in ROTJ.

ye christopher lee always plays an awesome villain

 

[Killswitch91]

Vaapad also requires a steady, sizable stream of force usage. Combined with Windu's aggressive style, wouldn't that tire him out even quicker?

 

[Ijedi]

Mace...

 

[Madmick]

I completely and utterly disagree in this assessment.

Dooku was the best aspect of Ep 2 and 3. Christopher Lee's performance was suitably aristocratic and intimidating, though I am afraid his role was far too marginalized to be interesting. Having him only appear for about a grand total of 20 minutes was an exceedingly poor choice, and killing him off at the very beginning of ep 3 was bad.

I remember literally swearing at the movie when his head got chopped off.

Also: You are forgetting the excellent performance by Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine. He was splendid throughout the prequels. As good as he was in ROTJ.

I think you'll find few who agree that Lee was equally compelling as a Sith in the same way that McDiarmid was as Palpatine or Park was as Maul; these are the performances you need for a epic trilogy to be great. McDiarmid was a role repriser (he played the emperor in the originals, and yes, he was great). Notice I didn't bag on Frank Oz or any of the original voices above, either.

 

[Madmick]

I actually thought Park's performance as Maul was nothing more than a stunt man. Darth Maul was all hype, no delievery. He speaks three lines in the entire film and is on screen for about 10 minutes, if that much. Maul was a dud.

I am not saying Lee put in a performance equal to McDiarmid (and yes, I know he's the same actor as the original). But I am saying he was an excellent villain who spiced up the trilogy with his presence and whose lack of screen-time contributed to the big failure that was AOTC and the small failures of ROTS.

You don't have to speak lines to portray a great villain. Maul was menacing, and that was his job. Think of the Man with No Name from Cool Hand Luke.

 

[Tankeray]

Sorry, I know its really off-topic, but anyone know why PalharesIsHulk got banned? One of his last posts was in here.