Crime Springfield, Ohio: migrant workers from Haiti exploited

[filthybliss]

No shit they were conquerors. Just like Napoleon. Just like Ghengis Khan. Just like Mohammed Hashim. My ancestors came here and conquered the natives and took this land over. What in your pea brain equates that to migrants coming here now???

And you understand that is actual ethnic cleansing right…It’s not the same thing as your Mom dating Juan and you being jealous about it.

 

[deviake]

@Mike is a good guy and isn't xenophobic. The man has been through some shit and has real world experience. He ain't dumb.

Being wary of how immigrants are used and of capitalists isn't the same as being anti-immigration/xenophobic/racist. There's arguments - leftwing arguments no less - that can and have been made about the use of and exploitation of immigrants including their (unwitting) use to undermine native-born US labor. My historical knowledge of such isn't strong enough to really dig in about other than that I've a passing awareness of it. And that's never mind about how the third world is used and abused by capitalists which is well known. That doesn't mean that immigration is a negative nor that immigrants don't expand the economy; they do. Bernie Sanders has laid all this out over the years.

I don't know the situation in Ohio with regard to this thread nor the overall discussion as of late (other than that the dogs and cats thing is bullshit). I abhor all the racist and xenophobic shit said about the Haitian immigrants. That said, I immediately got suspicious when that business owner complimented them while putting down the native born local US population (obviously not relating to the OP). It reads as, "nO oNe WAntS tO wOrK AnYmoRe!" Maybe he and other local businesses pay a fair wage and everything is dandy, maybe not. My eyes narrowed and brow furrowed when I heard that though. If all's improving in the community which seems to be the case, coolio. The business owner mentioned locals being on drugs too and that's another thing where I go, "okay, but why? What happened there?" If wages are fine, why are people leaving? Jobs in manufacturing in my experience that have high turnover suck to work at and/or don't pay well. I'm not making assumptions but some dots connect here. Whatever numbers there are, I'd need serious detail and context either way. As immigrants can be exploited, I've also seen felons exploited too which I don't see people talk about much and is probably not something most would think about unless they'd worked at the kind of places Mike and I have.

That aside aside, if the article in this thread is accurate that doesn't surprise me and is some of what we should be concerned about RE: exploitation.

It's a, I guess "touchy" subject to discuss (not to mention complex) if you're not rightwing, especially given the horrible things that are said about immigrants by rightwing politicians (and some in this thread), which is interesting given how "right to work" and pro business most of them are.

 

[Koro_11]

Wait till you find out who the original ancestral Americans were. Here’s a hint, they were not the trailer park boys

You think any people currently occupying any slab of land, are it's original ancestral inhabitants?

You realize the natives crossed over from Eurasia too at one point right?

 

[Islam Imamate]

@Mike is a good guy and isn't xenophobic. The man has been through some shit and has real world experience. He ain't dumb.

Being wary of how immigrants are used and of capitalists isn't the same as being anti-immigration/xenophobic/racist. There's arguments - leftwing arguments no less - that can and have been made about the use of and exploitation of immigrants including their (unwitting) use to undermine native-born US labor. My historical knowledge of such isn't strong enough to really dig in about other than that I've a passing awareness of it. And that's never mind about how the third world is used and abused by capitalists which is well known. That doesn't mean that immigration is a negative nor that immigrants don't expand the economy; they do. Bernie Sanders has laid all this out over the years.

I don't know the situation in Ohio with regard to this thread nor the overall discussion as of late (other than that the dogs and cats thing is bullshit). I abhor all the racist and xenophobic shit said about the Haitian immigrants. That said, I immediately got suspicious when that business owner complimented them while putting down the native born local US population (obviously not relating to the OP). It reads as, "nO oNe WAntS tO wOrK AnYmoRe!" Maybe he and other local businesses pay a fair wage and everything is dandy, maybe not. My eyes narrowed and brow furrowed when I heard that though. If all's improving in the community which seems to be the case, coolio. The business owner mentioned locals being on drugs too and that's another thing where I go, "okay, but why? What happened there?" If wages are fine, why are people leaving? Jobs in manufacturing in my experience that have high turnover suck to work at and/or don't pay well. I'm not making assumptions but some dots connect here. Whatever numbers there are, I'd need serious detail and context either way. As immigrants can be exploited, I've also seen felons exploited too which I don't see people talk about much and is probably not something most would think about unless they'd worked at the kind of places Mike and I have.

I've already said multiple times I don't think Mike is hateful or bigoted. He is peddling anti-immigration arguments but I think that's a fair characterization when he's advocating for less immigration. That he's doing so not out of bigotry but because he think it would be bad for the economy does not change the fact that he's against immigration.

That said even on its own merits I don't think his argument holds for the reasons I've articulated throughout the thread.

That aside aside, if the article in this thread is accurate that doesn't surprise me and is some of what we should be concerned about RE: exploitation.


It's a, I guess "touchy" subject to discuss (not to mention complex) if you're not rightwing, especially given the horrible things that are said about immigrants by rightwing politicians (and some in this thread), which is interesting given how "right to work" and pro business most of them are.

The issue with the article is that even if its accurate Nomani does not really make the case that anything illegal is happening. She uses charged language like "unmarked vans", "exploitation", and "trafficking" but nothing in her piece suggests any laws were broken.

 

[filthybliss]

You think any people currently occupying any slab of land, are it's original ancestral inhabitants?

You realize the natives crossed over from Eurasia too at one point right?

You gonna bat for that retard? Cmon now. He was claiming that white people are getting ethnically cleansed in America because of immigration. I was just trying to direct him to what actual ethnic cleansing is.

 

[deviake]

I've already said multiple times I don't think Mike is hateful or bigoted. He is peddling anti-immigration arguments but I think that's a fair characterization when he's advocating for less immigration. That he's doing so not out of bigotry but because he think it would be bad for the economy does not change the fact that he's against immigration.

That said even on its own merits I don't think his argument holds for the reasons I've articulated throughout the thread.

The issue with the article is that even if its accurate Nomani does not really make the case that anything illegal is happening. She uses charged language like "unmarked vans", "exploitation", and "trafficking" but nothing in her piece suggests any laws were broken.

On your first point, that's fair.

On the second, yeah, but plenty of exploitation is legal even in light of her language.

 

[Koro_11]

You gonna bat for that retard? Cmon now. He was claiming that white people are getting ethnically cleansed in America because of immigration. I was just trying to direct him to what actual ethnic cleansing is.

I didn't actually see his claims, and being from the Balkans I know a thing or two about ethnic cleansing.

I responded to you because you can't judge history by today's standards, so what is obvious ethnic cleansing and crime against humanity today, was just standard procedure for everyone operating back in that time. People do this with slavery all the time, ignoring the fact that this was just business as usual in all parts of the world back then, just stupid low resolution thinking.

It's like imagine the road your house in on has a speed limit of 40 km/h right now. But that same road 5 years ago had a speed limit of 80 km/h, and you drove 80 km/h on it all the time back then. Should you now be considered guilty because by today's standard you were going double the current speed limit?

 

[Andy Capp]

Aren't you a small business owner? That would make you by definition petite bourgeoise, not working class. Not that I care either way, my family also owns a small business so we're also petite bourgeoise.

It's a small small business. Let's put it that way. I'm doing the work, not employees. Thanks to the after effect of the pandemic I don't have any of those these days.

 

[SKYNET]

Because you guys are going out of your way to spin and spin and spin and never answer my simple questions. Which seems pretty suspicious.

welcome to teh WR my friend. You should catch them in one of their circle jerk frenzies.

Picture Tippy Hedren stuck in a phone booth while bird after bird comes kamikaze smashing into the glass one by one

 

[filthybliss]

I didn't actually see his claims, and being from the Balkans I know a thing or two about ethnic cleansing.

I responded to you because you can't judge history by today's standards, so what is obvious ethnic cleansing and crime against humanity today, was just standard procedure for everyone operating back in that time. People do this with slavery all the time, ignoring the fact that this was just business as usual in all parts of the world back then, just stupid low resolution thinking.

It's like imagine the road your house in on has a speed limit of 40 km/h right now. But that same road 5 years ago had a speed limit of 80 km/h, and you drove 80 km/h on it all the time back then. Should you now be considered guilty because by today's standard you were going double the current speed limit?

You know what’s funny is that I tried explaining this to you before when you were claiming that Hitler was more humane than Genghis Khan. Weird how that works. Anyways, seems like you haven’t let go of that grudge so you tried getting some weird zinger on me here over nothing.

 

[Koro_11]

You know what’s funny is that I tried explaining this to you before when you were claiming that Hitler was more humane than Genghis Khan. Weird how that works. Anyways, seems like you haven’t let go of that grudge so you tried getting some weird zinger on me here over nothing.

I remember you now, you’re the genius that claimed the people Genghis Khan killed were just other soldiers, not civilians.

If you can make such a claim and if you would rather be captured by steppe nomads from the 13th century than any German army of the 1900’s then you have zero understanding of history and probably should never comment on such topics.

 

[filthybliss]

I remember you now, you’re the genius that claimed the people Genghis Khan killed were just other soldiers, not civilians.

If you can make such a claim and if you would rather be captured by steppe nomads from the 13th century then you have zero understanding of history and probably should comment on such topics.

You are playing dumb and you know it, bro. I didn’t say that. I said that the time period was “kill or be killed” and that the time period that Hitler was in was a more civilized time period which is what made his actions more revolting.

You also didn’t even know that Hitler literally put his own people in Gas Chambers.

 

[Islam Imamate]

On the second, yeah, but plenty of exploitation is legal even in light of her language.

Sure and that the type of reporting she is attempting to do here could very well point to something that isn't illegal but that we should do something about. I just don't think the piece in question was able to connect enough dots to so do.

It's a small small business. Let's put it that way. I'm doing the work, not employees. Thanks to the after effect of the pandemic I don't have any of those these days.

Yes but according to Marxist theory you would still be petite bourgeoise because you own the "means of production" which in this case is your business.

 

[Koro_11]

You are playing dumb and you know it, bro. I didn’t say that. I said that the time period was “kill or be killed” and that the time period that Hitler was in was a more civilized time period which is what made his actions more revolting.

You also didn’t even know that Hitler literally put his own people in Gas Chambers.

And you're not playing dumb, you just are dumb... dumb enough to go back and change your initial post to support your weak argument.

Too bad for you your original post is still quoted in my reply to you, here is it verbatim:

"Add on the fact that Khan and the others that you listed death tolls come from warfare and not deliberate concentration camps that served to eliminate and demean the "other"."
Here is the link to that page:

Social - Tucker Carlson Starstruck By Historian Who Calls Churchill, Not Hitler, the ‘Chief Villain’ of WW2 and Casts Holocaust as Accident

Critical thinking is not your strength. Add on the fact that Khan and the others that you listed death tolls come from warfare and not deliberate concentration camps that served to eliminate and demean the "other". And history is obviously not your strength. Genghis Khan is believed to be...

forums.sherdog.com

So yeah, I could forgive you for being dumb, but what I can't forgive is that on top of being dumb, you're also a dishonest little weasel. You're in way over your head in these grown up topics, maybe you should say less for a while and just read some books or learn some history first.

Also, stop being a dishonest weasel.

 

[Gutter Chris]

What do you think brought em there? Are you against them being there or are you against the corporations utilizing them as cheap labor?

A sizable chunk of them were already in the states living elsewhere and they moved in too. The compound effect, my man. I imagine Dearborn wasn’t super Arab at one point. @Gutter Chris can maybe attest to that if his pfp resembles where he’s from.

I can speak on it a bit. Dearborn gets talked about but there's still quite a bit of diversity. It feels a lot more like the other Wayne County suburbs than people who have only read about the place probably think it does. Hamtramck on the other hand is probably a lot more like the people not from here think dearborn is like and it feels a lot more like being in a different country. Not sure exactly how to put it here so grant me some grace dearborn is like business Arabs and I feel like a lot of them out there are a few generations deep now and from what the eyeball can tell much more americanized. Hamtramck has more of a first generation off the boat vibe. They don't got the white suv, the columns on their house no matter what kind of house and the fountain in the front yard no matter the size of the yard yet.

I saw and experienced it more with ham tram from being down there for shows Dearborn had already kind of happened. You kinda don't notice at first . Then it almost feels like over night it's almost another country. I dont mean that in a bad way its not iraq or anything its just very obvious you arent in canton westland or livonia . It's chill though as long as you aren't at a club dealing with caldians who for reasons I don't understand are the most aggro people on earth that I've ever dealt with. Diplomacy with a skinhead crew is easier. And there's always like 40 of them. Fuckin machismo culture or something I guess I don't know what the deal is . I also don't understand why I see like kids like actual kids not teens or pre teens outside playing and ladies in the full get up coming and going at like 2 am. I don't know who to ask whats up with that but I've noticed and I'm legit curious and legit not trying to be a racist ass. I don't know if I'm witnessing a cultural difference or if it's a Hamtramck thing or what's going on and I'm just curious about it really.

It's also was/ is an amusing visual to see all kinds of various punk sub genre types and like really traditional dressed Arab types mingling. I have always wondered what they thought about us and if they had picked up on the diff subcultures

This why i hate all that micro aggression shit. Sometimes i just really wonder about other people and how else am i gonna know ?

I grew up with punks rudies skinheads juggalos rednecks and black people. I've had a polish , a mixed girl , a trailer girl and an Indian girlfriend. If you aren't on that list my knowledge of your culture and family life and what not may or may not be very limited depending on who and what we are talking about.

 

[Jack V Savage]

@Mike is a good guy and isn't xenophobic. The man has been through some shit and has real world experience. He ain't dumb.

Being wary of how immigrants are used and of capitalists isn't the same as being anti-immigration/xenophobic/racist.

I think the way immigrants are used by rightists is as a scapegoat to get people who are hurt by rightist policies supporting rightists electorally. And that's exactly what Mike has been doing. I also think his inability to think on his feet and insistence on canned talking points in the face of contrary facts suggests a deeper issue.

There's arguments - leftwing arguments no less - that can and have been made about the use of and exploitation of immigrants including their (unwitting) use to undermine native-born US labor. My historical knowledge of such isn't strong enough to really dig in about other than that I've a passing awareness of it. And that's never mind about how the third world is used and abused by capitalists which is well known. That doesn't mean that immigration is a negative nor that immigrants don't expand the economy; they do. Bernie Sanders has laid all this out over the years.

I don't think they're really left-wing arguments. I think that because of the Cold War, a lot of rightists tried to justify support for hierarchy in capitalist terms, but well-functioning markets tend to dissolve hierarchies (even Marx noted that profits tend toward zero--though he noted counteracting factors, including one that can sort of be tied to the rightist view here). Since the end of the Cold War, rightists have become increasingly anti-markets, and supporters of markets have moved to the left (also affected by an empirical revolution in the study of economics).

At any rate, the arguments can be evaluated on their own terms, separate from the preferences of people looking at them, and it is simply not true that an influx of immigration--even low-skill immigration--causes native wages to fall. There isn't good theory backing it up, and the evidence contradicts it. That's why I keep pointing out, and @Mike keeps avoiding, the fact that during the period of an increase in the Haitian population, wages in Springfield rose more than average for the country. I do not understand how that fact is not the end of the discussion. His theory is that the numbers are way higher than any known facts show (we have estimates of 12K-15K total immigrants in the entire county, while he's insisting that it's 20K Haitian immigrants just in one small-ish town), and that those high numbers are causing wages to fall, and that the falling wages are an engineered effect of shadowy, evil figures. But if the numbers can be that high and the town's wages are rising, the impact would either have to be positive or so small that some mysterious other factor is totally swamping them (and I think we'd really want to know what that factor is!).

I don't know the situation in Ohio with regard to this thread nor the overall discussion as of late (other than that the dogs and cats thing is bullshit). I abhor all the racist and xenophobic shit said about the Haitian immigrants. That said, I immediately got suspicious when that business owner complimented them while putting down the native born local US population (obviously not relating to the OP). It reads as, "nO oNe WAntS tO wOrK AnYmoRe!" Maybe he and other local businesses pay a fair wage and everything is dandy, maybe not. My eyes narrowed and brow furrowed when I heard that though. If all's improving in the community which seems to be the case, coolio. The business owner mentioned locals being on drugs too and that's another thing where I go, "okay, but why? What happened there?" If wages are fine, why are people leaving?

To be clear, wages are low, but they were low before, and now they're rising. The problem is death spirals. An economic downturn causes people to leave, which causes the economy to get worse for people who stay, which incentivizes them to leave, etc. The influx of immigration is saving the town, and of course local business owners would be happy about it.

 

[filthybliss]

I can speak on it a bit. Dearborn gets talked about but there's still quite a bit of diversity. It feels a lot more like the other Wayne County suburbs than people who have only read about the place probably think it does. Hamtramck on the other hand is probably a lot more like the people not from here think dearborn is like and it feels a lot more like being in a different country. Not sure exactly how to put it here so grant me some grace dearborn is like business Arabs and I feel like a lot of them out there are a few generations deep now and from what the eyeball can tell much more americanized. Hamtramck has more of a first generation off the boat vibe. They don't got the white suv, the columns on their house no matter what kind of house and the fountain in the front yard no matter the size of the yard yet.

I saw and experienced it more with ham tram from being down there for shows Dearborn had already kind of happened. You kinda don't notice at first . Then it almost feels like over night it's almost another country. I dont mean that in a bad way its not iraq or anything its just very obvious you arent in canton westland or livonia . It's chill though as long as you aren't at a club dealing with caldians who for reasons I don't understand are the most aggro people on earth that I've ever dealt with. Diplomacy with a skinhead crew is easier. And there's always like 40 of them. Fuckin machismo culture or something I guess I don't know what the deal is . I also don't understand why I see like kids like actual kids not teens or pre teens outside playing and ladies in the full get up coming and going at like 2 am. I don't know who to ask whats up with that but I've noticed and I'm legit curious and legit not trying to be a racist ass. I don't know if I'm witnessing a cultural difference or if it's a Hamtramck thing or what's going on and I'm just curious about it really.

It's also was/ is an amusing visual to see all kinds of various punk sub genre types and like really traditional dressed Arab types mingling. I have always wondered what they thought about us and if they had picked up on the diff subcultures

This why i hate all that micro aggression shit. Sometimes i just really wonder about other people and how else am i gonna know ?

I grew up with punks rudies skinheads juggalos rednecks and black people. I've had a polish , a mixed girl , a trailer girl and an Indian girlfriend. If you aren't on that list my knowledge of your culture and family life and what not may or may not be very limited depending on who and what we are talking about.

I appreciate your response and all the details were really cool too. I grew up in Oakland county and I only been to Dearborn a handful amount of times. I always got the vibe that overall Wayne County was really diverse and more stuff was happening there that seems to be case from what you are describing.

 

[Andy Capp]

Sure and that the type of reporting she is attempting to do here could very well point to something that isn't illegal but that we should do something about. I just don't think the piece in question was able to connect enough dots to so do.

Yes but according to Marxist theory you would still be petite bourgeoise because you own the "means of production" which in this case is your business.

I'm not a Marxist nor am I theoretical. The point is I'm not getting rich off the back of someone else's labour.

 

[filthybliss]

And you're not playing dumb, you just are dumb... dumb enough to go back and change your initial post to support your weak argument.

Too bad for you your original post is still quoted in my reply to you, here is it verbatim:

"Add on the fact that Khan and the others that you listed death tolls come from warfare and not deliberate concentration camps that served to eliminate and demean the "other"."
Here is the link to that page:

Social - Tucker Carlson Starstruck By Historian Who Calls Churchill, Not Hitler, the ‘Chief Villain’ of WW2 and Casts Holocaust as Accident

Critical thinking is not your strength. Add on the fact that Khan and the others that you listed death tolls come from warfare and not deliberate concentration camps that served to eliminate and demean the "other". And history is obviously not your strength. Genghis Khan is believed to be...

forums.sherdog.com

So yeah, I could forgive you for being dumb, but what I can't forgive is that on top of being dumb, you're also a dishonest little weasel. You're in way over your head in these grown up topics, maybe you should say less for a while and just read some books or learn some history first.

Also, stop being a dishonest weasel.

Every accusation is a confession literally. It clearly shows that I didn't edit shit, anybody can click it and see that you deliberately left out context of the whole quote. Like seriously dude, you should take your own advice and get some period pads for yourself. It is unhealthy to be losing your mind about a discussion that you embarassed yourself on 2 weeks ago. I woulda forgot about it too if you didn't keep pestering me in other threads to try to one up me on the most random shit like you did here again.

Critical thinking is not your strength. Yes, the death toll under those regimes are all high but they are not "pretty much" like Hitler...Given the context of the time, it was kill or be killed.

As for Hitler's reign, it took place in a civilized century where expanionism was not the norm. Add on the fact that Khan and the others that you listed death tolls come from warfare and not deliberate concentration camps that served to eliminate and demean the "other".

 

[The Diplomat]

You are playing dumb and you know it, bro. I didn’t say that. I said that the time period was “kill or be killed” and that the time period that Hitler was in was a more civilized time period which is what made his actions more revolting.

You also didn’t even know that Hitler literally put his own people in Gas Chambers.

And you're not playing dumb, you just are dumb... dumb enough to go back and change your initial post to support your weak argument.

Too bad for you your original post is still quoted in my reply to you, here is it verbatim:

"Add on the fact that Khan and the others that you listed death tolls come from warfare and not deliberate concentration camps that served to eliminate and demean the "other"."
Here is the link to that page:

Social - Tucker Carlson Starstruck By Historian Who Calls Churchill, Not Hitler, the ‘Chief Villain’ of WW2 and Casts Holocaust as Accident

Critical thinking is not your strength. Add on the fact that Khan and the others that you listed death tolls come from warfare and not deliberate concentration camps that served to eliminate and demean the "other". And history is obviously not your strength. Genghis Khan is believed to be...

forums.sherdog.com

So yeah, I could forgive you for being dumb, but what I can't forgive is that on top of being dumb, you're also a dishonest little weasel. You're in way over your head in these grown up topics, maybe you should say less for a while and just read some books or learn some history first.

Also, stop being a dishonest weasel.

Do you both agree that the town and schools of Springfield, Ohio is being ravaged by fake bomb threats and racism over a stupid thing that Trump said?