Crime Springfield, Ohio: migrant workers from Haiti exploited

[filthybliss]

Do you both agree that the town and schools of Springfield, Ohio is being ravaged by fake bomb threats and racism over a stupid thing that Trump said?

Its undoubtable lol

 

[AWilder]

I'm in my workweek still which means my days are about 15 hours long minimum. I've responded to what I've had time for but my time is limited during the work week and I can't spend all of it here either. 1.9 jobs per person. Okay. How many of these jobs pay a living wage? Our job statistics are incredibly bloated with this part time retail/foodservice bullshit that pays wages today that were hard to live on 15 years ago. Like I said for the fast food places that never did a large wage increase during or after covid, they are hilariously understaffed here. I'm talking one or two teens running a whole store by themselves. Where are the entry level workers that used to work these jobs?

Here at least, they've transitioned into blue collar fields that pay far more. You can't just look at employment statistics in a vacuum because we live in a country where our leadership is in bed with big business, and has been subsidizing them to create shitty part time low paying jobs with little to no benefits or growth. My position is it is NOT a tragedy, problem, issue we need to solve etc. that some employers are used to drastically underpaying workers to work shitty roles and that's not working out for them anymore. Oh well. Some of these "lost workers" are now working one decent job instead of 2 or 3 shitty ones. I know that's the case for myself.

Jobs that won't pay a living age can just go away. It's already happening organically if our leaders didn't allow corps to just bus in scabs from the 3rd world that have no leverage that they can force into these roles. That isn't helping anyone but corporate America, and underpaying their staff is a priviledge they've gotten used to abusing not a right.

My 14 year old nephew works at Chick Fila so my anecdote trumps your anecdote. Do you ever have anything other than anecdotes and misunderstood articles to bring to the discussion?

 

[Koro_11]

Every accusation is a confession literally. It clearly shows that I didn't edit shit, anybody can click it and see that you deliberately left out context of the whole quote. Like seriously dude, you should take your own advice and get some period pads for yourself. It is unhealthy to be losing your mind about a discussion that you embarassed yourself on 2 weeks ago. I woulda forgot about it too if you didn't keep pestering me in other threads to try to one up me on the most random shit like you did here again.

So you're standing by your claim that the casualties caused by the Mongols came from "warfare", and they didn't do things like "eliminating the other"?

This is really funny to me because I have geeked out on the history of steppe tribes from the Scythians, to the Huns, and eventually the
Mongols, especially from the reign of Genghis up to the death of his grandson Kublai... as much as I'm fascinated by history in general, I was always particularly fascinated by the Mongols of the medieval times and their military prowess as well as their capacity for ruthlessness and cruelty. I have also absorbed a ton of content on both World Wars so yeah your ridiculous claim is extra ridiculous to me, it shows you have very little knowledge about these topics and probably should go educate yourself a lot more before you try to comment about them here... seriously this is not trolling or trying to one up you now, but if you wanna be taken seriously you should refrain from commenting on historical events until you have at least some clue.

 

[Koro_11]

Do you both agree that the town and schools of Springfield, Ohio is being ravaged by fake bomb threats and racism over a stupid thing that Trump said?

I don't know if that's the reason, and I'm not here to defend Trump... just because someone calls out leftist lunacy doesn't mean they support everything Donald Trump says and does.

Do you agree with me that unchecked mass illegal immigration is a serious issue that is negatively impacting western society, and that the response to it should be something more than just "but but but Trumpppffff said....."?

 

[ChosenOne]

@Mike is a good guy and isn't xenophobic. The man has been through some shit and has real world experience. He ain't dumb.
...

My issue with @Mike is he is dishonest in his spin.

His two main arguments are both proven wrong, and yet he runs from one to the other when confronted and shown why they are wrong.

Argument 1 : 'it hurts the US economically', when proven wrong easily prompts him to then switch to Argument 2 : 'ok just because it does benefit the economy i do not want benefit off the harm and exploitation of these immigrants'. That argument is easily countered by showing the immigrants (Haitians in this case) are FAR better off here in America doing this work, then blocked by Mike to stay in Haiti, and that many of them in Springfield were already working in America in other States and moved their for improved opportunity. And that is not even considering the broader benefits to their kids, grandkids and other family members.

So Mikes 'i want to save the economy' argument fails miserably as does his 'I want to save the Haitians from harm' argument.

He is left with only one argument once those two are stripped away. He just does not want immigrants here despite the benefits to the people and economy.

I do not think it is necessarily xenophobia or racism and instead think it is this...

Mike seems to be the 'mark' for the above and looks at the challenges he has had in his life, and listens to the right wing and blames the arrival of immigrants for them.

 

[AWilder]

My issue with @Mike is he is dishonest in his spin.

His two main arguments are both proven wrong, and yet he runs from one to the other when confronted and shown why they are wrong.

Argument 1 : 'it hurts the US economically', when proven wrong easily prompts him to then switch to Argument 2 : 'ok just because it does benefit the economy i do not want benefit off the harm and exploitation of these immigrants'. That argument is easily countered by showing the immigrants (Haitians in this case) are FAR better off here in America doing this work, then blocked by Mike to stay in Haiti, and that many of them in Springfield were already working in America in other States and moved their for improved opportunity. And that is not even considering the broader benefits to their kids, grandkids and other family members.

So Mikes 'i want to save the economy' argument fails miserably as does his 'I want to save the Haitians from harm' argument.

He is left with only one argument once those two are stripped away. He just does not want immigrants here despite the benefits to the people and economy.

I do not think it is necessarily xenophobia or racism and instead think it is this...

Mike seems to be the 'mark' for the above and looks at the challenges he has had in his life, and listens to the right wing and blames the arrival of immigrants for them.

Yup, I posted earlier in this thread a similar sentiment. Watching Labor get tricked by anti-labor politicians because their hatred for "others" is more important to them than their own future.

 

[Mike]

My issue with @Mike is he is dishonest in his spin.

His two main arguments are both proven wrong, and yet he runs from one to the other when confronted and shown why they are wrong.

Argument 1 : 'it hurts the US economically', when proven wrong easily prompts him to then switch to Argument 2 : 'ok just because it does benefit the economy i do not want benefit off the harm and exploitation of these immigrants'. That argument is easily countered by showing the immigrants (Haitians in this case) are FAR better off here in America doing this work, then blocked by Mike to stay in Haiti, and that many of them in Springfield were already working in America in other States and moved their for improved opportunity. And that is not even considering the broader benefits to their kids, grandkids and other family members.

So Mikes 'i want to save the economy' argument fails miserably as does his 'I want to save the Haitians from harm' argument.

He is left with only one argument once those two are stripped away. He just does not want immigrants here despite the benefits to the people and economy.

I do not think it is necessarily xenophobia or racism and instead think it is this...

Mike seems to be the 'mark' for the above and looks at the challenges he has had in his life, and listens to the right wing and blames the arrival of immigrants for them.

MY spin? Oh Jesus fucking christ guy. And your dumb picture is dumb. I'm not fucking unaware that the business owner is the primary antagonist here. If anything you guys seem to be. For some reason you champions of the free market think the solution to a corp underpaying isn't for them to pay market rate or move operations elsewhere. No, for some inane reason you think these shitty jobs "need" to be worked below market rate and the solution is to bus in 3rd world immigrants that they can exploit the shit out of.


And still mainly crickets as to why a cursory investigation shows every other employer in the industry there is paying market rates just fine. For some reason every other employer hasn't had this dire problem that can only be solved by importing indentured servants.


What a crazy mystery.

 

[Mike]

Also it's baffling to have explain over and over that immigrants don't hurt the overall economy because they were brought in precisely to provide low cost labor. That's obviously beneficial to big business. Who it ultimately hurts is the working class in those industries. It's pretty annoying how you guys outright ignore or dodge and spin every point I try to make, then act like I'm some sort of idiot that doesn't understand simple concepts because you just talk over me an don't seem to actually absorb anything I say unless I say it at least 5 different ways.

How else can you explain stuff like you guys trying to tell me over an over they make above minimum wage, even though I keep telling you this isn't a minimum wage field so that's literally meaningless. Or this crap with trying to tell me the real issue is the corps exploiting them when I myself have stated this is the core issue not the migrants themselves over an over. And when I correct you on these things you never have real responses you just move onto your next spin. Pretty pointless trying to have a conversation with people that just ignore everything you have to say because they don't care about hearing an opposing view, they're just waiting for their turn to talk.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Also it's baffling to have explain over and over that immigrants don't hurt the overall economy because they were brought in precisely to provide low cost labor. That's obviously beneficial to big business. Who it ultimately hurts is the working class in those industries. It's pretty annoying how you guys outright ignore or dodge and spin every point I try to make, then act like I'm some sort of idiot that doesn't understand simple concepts because you just talk over me an don't seem to actually absorb anything I say unless I say it at least 5 different ways.

How else can you explain stuff like you guys trying to tell me over an over they make above minimum wage, even though I keep telling you this isn't a minimum wage field so that's literally meaningless. Or this crap with trying to tell me the real issue is the corps exploiting them when I myself have stated this is the core issue not the migrants themselves over an over. And when I correct you on these things you never have real responses you just move onto your next spin. Pretty pointless trying to have a conversation with people that just ignore everything you have to say because they don't care about hearing an opposing view, they're just waiting for their turn to talk.

How many times do I have to point out to you that you're extrapolating way too much based off one or two isolated data points? We don't know what the average wage of these Haitians are, we don't know how much the staffing agency is taking, we don't know what positions they're taking, and yet despite all the unknowns you're speaking with the utmost confidence that something wrong is certainly happening? You don't see the problem with this?

 

[Jack V Savage]

Also it's baffling to have explain over and over that immigrants don't hurt the overall economy because they were brought in precisely to provide low cost labor. That's obviously beneficial to big business.

It helps workers. Wages are up, for example, which is something you seem literally blind to, in that you just ignore it when it's pointed out and then repeat the same talking points as if you didn't know that they were false. It comes off as very dishonest.

Who it ultimately hurts is the working class in those industries. It's pretty annoying how you guys outright ignore or dodge and spin every point I try to make, then act like I'm some sort of idiot that doesn't understand simple concepts because you just talk over me an don't seem to actually absorb anything I say unless I say it at least 5 different ways.

How else can you explain stuff like you guys trying to tell me over an over they make above minimum wage, even though I keep telling you this isn't a minimum wage field so that's literally meaningless. Or this crap with trying to tell me the real issue is the corps exploiting them when I myself have stated this is the core issue not the migrants themselves over an over. And when I correct you on these things you never have real responses you just move onto your next spin. Pretty pointless trying to have a conversation with people that just ignore everything you have to say because they don't care about hearing an opposing view, they're just waiting for their turn to talk.

This is some world-class projection.

 

[Mike]

How many times do I have to point out to you that you're extrapolating way too much based off one or two isolated data points? We don't know what the average wage of these Haitians are, we don't know how much the staffing agency is taking, we don't know what positions they're taking, and yet despite all the unknowns you're speaking with the utmost confidence that something wrong is certainly happening? You don't see the problem with this?

Right instead in every single scenario we should give the corporations the full benefit of the doubt. I mean that's your pov right? Even if their actions look suspicious, even if every single bit of it looks shady and dirty we should assume it's all above board until we have ironclad proof otherwise. Like we're on a jury instead of speculating. I mean there's NO imbalance of power in this situation so we should assume fairness is the utmost priority.


That's why the preliminary info we have makes it look like they're underpaying these people and shoving them into tenements and acting as their landlords. How many shady looking things have to happen in a row before your suspicion is aroused through sheer deductive reasoning?

 

[Jack V Savage]

Right instead in every single scenario we should give the corporations the full benefit of the doubt. I mean that's your pov right?

Do you really think that's his pov? Why be so dishonest if you really believe GOP talking points are true?

 

[Koro_11]

My issue with @Mike is he is dishonest in his spin.

His two main arguments are both proven wrong, and yet he runs from one to the other when confronted and shown why they are wrong.

Argument 1 : 'it hurts the US economically', when proven wrong easily prompts him to then switch to Argument 2 : 'ok just because it does benefit the economy i do not want benefit off the harm and exploitation of these immigrants'. That argument is easily countered by showing the immigrants (Haitians in this case) are FAR better off here in America doing this work, then blocked by Mike to stay in Haiti, and that many of them in Springfield were already working in America in other States and moved their for improved opportunity. And that is not even considering the broader benefits to their kids, grandkids and other family members.

So Mikes 'i want to save the economy' argument fails miserably as does his 'I want to save the Haitians from harm' argument.

He is left with only one argument once those two are stripped away. He just does not want immigrants here despite the benefits to the people and economy.

I do not think it is necessarily xenophobia or racism and instead think it is this...

Mike seems to be the 'mark' for the above and looks at the challenges he has had in his life, and listens to the right wing and blames the arrival of immigrants for them.

I can't speak for Mike, but I think most of us don't have a problem with a country bringing in immigrants LEGALLY, and expecting those immigrants to ASSIMILATE and respect the laws and norms of the society they came to. These immigrants should not be brought here to create ghettos that resemble the shitholes they escaped from, because the whole point of coming here was to not be in a place like that.

Also, you can't take a small town of 40 thousand people, and flood it with 15 thousand third world immigrants, there is no way that turns out well.... immigration works when migrants are trickling in, this is a flood.

 

[ChosenOne]

Also it's baffling to have explain over and over that immigrants don't hurt the overall economy because they were brought in precisely to provide low cost labor. That's obviously beneficial to big business. Who it ultimately hurts is the working class in those industries. It's pretty annoying how you guys outright ignore or dodge and spin every point I try to make, then act like I'm some sort of idiot that doesn't understand simple concepts because you just talk over me an don't seem to actually absorb anything I say unless I say it at least 5 different ways.
...

We do not ignore anything.

It is simply FACT that the growth and wealth of the middle class and lower class was the best it has ever been during the mass waves of immigration, i keep referencing (Roma, Jews, Russians, etc) that you have BLOCKED, thinking you were protecting them and helping the MC and LC.

You are simply wrong and just dishonest on this topic as you keep recylcing the same spin, already addressed and proved foundationless. The middle class and the lower class were arguably the biggest benefactors.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Right instead in every single scenario we should give the corporations the full benefit of the doubt. I mean that's your pov right? Even if their actions look suspicious, even if every single bit of it looks shady and dirty we should assume it's all above board until we have ironclad proof otherwise. Like we're on a jury instead of speculating. I mean there's NO imbalance of power in this situation so we should assume fairness is the utmost priority.


That's why the preliminary info we have makes it look like they're underpaying these people and shoving them into tenements and acting as their landlords. How many shady looking things have to happen in a row before your suspicion is aroused through sheer deductive reasoning?

Yes we should give people the benefit of the doubt when there is so much doubt as with this case. The original article did a poor job of articulating what exactly is going on here that's so bad IMO. As I've said before that doesn't mean nothing wrong is happening, it just means I'd need to see a lot more to be convinced. Is that unfair?

 

[ChosenOne]

I can't speak for Mike, but I think most of us don't have a problem with a country bringing in immigrants LEGALLY, and expecting those immigrants to ASSIMILATE and respect the laws and norms of the society they came to. These immigrants should not be brought here to create ghettos that resemble the shitholes they escaped from, because the whole point of coming here was to not be in a place like that.

Also, you can't take a small town of 40 thousand people, and flood it with 15 thousand third world immigrants, there is no way that turns out well.... immigration works when migrants are trickling in, this is a flood.

DO you understand it was the town of Springfield, in 2017 when Trump was POTUS, who got together, targeted the Haitian and other communities, put together marketing material and legal resources for them, and convinced them to apply for jobs in Springfield and helped them mover there because their shrinking town population put them at risk of becoming the next Rust Belt Ghost Town, on the growing industry tours that are now run?

 

[Mike]

Yes we should give people the benefit of the doubt when there is so much doubt as with this case. The original article did a poor job of articulating what exactly is going on here that's so bad IMO. As I've said before that doesn't mean nothing wrong is happening, it just means I'd need to see a lot more to be convinced. Is that unfair?

It's idealistic and naive given the situation to the point of absurdity.

 

[Koro_11]

DO you understand it was the town of Springfield, in 2017 when Trump was POTUS, who got together, targeted the Haitian and other communities, put together marketing material and legal resources for them, and convinced them to apply for jobs in Springfield and helped them mover there because their shrinking town population put them at risk of becoming the next Rust Belt Ghost Town, on the growing industry tours that are not run?

I don't, I was speaking in general and I think my point still applies, it was obviously a bad idea.

So the town asked for exclusively Haitian immigrants?

 

[Islam Imamate]

It's idealistic and naive given the situation to the point of absurdity.

I strongly disagree, like I said you're extrapolating off one or two data points from the article despite the fact that there's so much you don't know about the situation. I've never said that there's definitely not something wrong going on here but Asra Nomani did nowhere near enough to establish that in her article. One Haitian making $12.50 is not enough evidence.

 

[Andy Capp]

I can't speak for Mike, but I think most of us don't have a problem with a country bringing in immigrants LEGALLY, and expecting those immigrants to ASSIMILATE and respect the laws and norms of the society they came to. These immigrants should not be brought here to create ghettos that resemble the shitholes they escaped from, because the whole point of coming here was to not be in a place like that.

Also, you can't take a small town of 40 thousand people, and flood it with 15 thousand third world immigrants, there is no way that turns out well.... immigration works when migrants are trickling in, this is a flood.

It's a town of 60 thousand people, they brought in 12-15 thousand immigrants to stem the drastic outflow of people from the city and to prevent the inevitable death of the town, and the people they brought in were entirely legal. Tired of being wrong yet? Start a new fucking thread for that bullshit you believe, why don't you?