Somebody please show me the receipts!

[Shilajit]

There's a distinct possibility he knew he wouldn't fight Ngannou. Looks like you've finally provided the admission I was looking for so it hasn't been a complete waste of my time.

How would he know what Ngannou decided to do?

Nobody knew until the very end

Are you saying hes still a pussy because he telepathically intuited that Ngannou wouldn't sign and he wouldn't have to fight him?

That's some next level 4d chess bud

 

[Phill]

If Jones and Ngannou were both signed and Jones decided he wanted to stay retired, ended up with a career ending disease or injury then that's a different story.

But you cannot offer a fight in a legal binding document unless Jones was already signed.

It's that simple.


You don't seem to understand the basics of how a contract works.

I'm surprised no one called you out on this yet, but it's completely false that you can't offer a contract to one party, unless the other party signed their contract too.

Your premise is wrong, and it happens in fighting ALL the time that A declines, and B agrees, fight doesn't get made. Or B agrees to a fight that A didn't even know was on the table yet. A declines, fight doesn't get made.

 

[AmonTobin]

I'm surprised no one called you out on this yet, but it's completely false that you can't offer a contract to one party, unless the other party signed their contract too. A contract with multiple parties only becomes legally binding once all parties have accepted.

Think about it logically; according to you, if the first party doesn't sign their contract, you can't negotiate or present a contract to the second party. But someone must always be offered the contract first, and someone else after. By definition the first party is offered a contract before the second party has signed theirs.

Your premise is wrong, and it happens in fighting ALL the time that A declines, and B agrees, fight doesn't get made. Or B agrees to a fight that A didn't even know was on the table yet. A declines, fight doesn't get made.

Said more eloquently. Thanks.

 

[Phill]

Thanks for your input. I wanted to fact check that before questioning it. Much appreciated.

I edited my post a bit. I don't want to misrepresent my expertise since I'm not a lawyer. However, what I said is absolutely true:
https://www.contractscounsel.com/b/binding-contract
"A contract is a legally binding document between two or more parties which defines and governs the rights, duties and responsibilities of all parties involved in an agreement. It becomes legally binding when all parties sign on to the agreement."

It's the same in Canada. The additional proof is that this happens all the time and fighters bring it up all the time. How many times has someone tweeted "I'm fighting X in December", and X responds "Nothing was ever mentioned about it to me".

 

[AmonTobin]

I edited my post a bit. I don't want to misrepresent my expertise since I'm not a lawyer. However, what I said is absolutely true:
https://www.contractscounsel.com/b/binding-contract
"A contract is a legally binding document between two or more parties which defines and governs the rights, duties and responsibilities of all parties involved in an agreement. It becomes legally binding when all parties sign on to the agreement."

It's the same in Canada. The additional proof is that this happens all the time and fighters bring it up all the time. How many times has someone tweeted "I'm fighting X in December", and X responds "Nothing was ever mentioned about it to me".

And it makes perfect sense the way you explained it.

 

[Phill]

And it makes perfect sense the way you explained it.

I appreciate that man, thanks!

 

[Shilajit]

I'm surprised no one called you out on this yet, but it's completely false that you can't offer a contract to one party, unless the other party signed their contract too.

Your premise is wrong, and it happens in fighting ALL the time that A declines, and B agrees, fight doesn't get made. Or B agrees to a fight that A didn't even know was on the table yet. A declines, fight doesn't get made.

It wasn't just a fight contract though.

It was Frank's UFC contract.

The main focal point of the deal they offered him was 8 million for the Jones fight. That was the key bargaining chip to coerce him into staying for multiple fights.

This isn't something they would offer him if Jones still hadn't even come come to an agreement and come out of retirement yet.

If they did offer Frank that contract without Jones being on board yet, Frank accepts and then Jones for whatever reason decides not to sign, it opens up the potential for a legal shit storm.

A multi billion dollar company wouldn't mess around with contracts like this.

If they were just negotiating for the fight itself, it would be a different story. But In this case, the Jones bout and 8 million dollar offer was a bargaining chip to get him to stay with the organization. So there's much deeper implications.

 

[Shilajit]

I edited my post a bit. I don't want to misrepresent my expertise since I'm not a lawyer. However, what I said is absolutely true:
https://www.contractscounsel.com/b/binding-contract
"A contract is a legally binding document between two or more parties which defines and governs the rights, duties and responsibilities of all parties involved in an agreement. It becomes legally binding when all parties sign on to the agreement."

It's the same in Canada. The additional proof is that this happens all the time and fighters bring it up all the time. How many times has someone tweeted "I'm fighting X in December", and X responds "Nothing was ever mentioned about it to me".

That's the thing though.

If Jones hadn't actually come to terms yet with the UFC, but an 8 million dollar fight with Jones was put Into Franks contract as a bargaining chip to get him to stay with the organization for multiple fights

Then let's say Jones decided not to sign.

This would effectively make the 3 fight deal Ngannou signed null and void.

A contract constructed under false pretenses. It would open up the potential for legal action as well on the part of Ngannou.

This is something you might expect from bush league organizations. But not the UFC.

You'd be correct if they were just negotiating for a single fight. But the implications were a lot bigger here.

In any case, it's a moot point, if we're to pay attention to Chael and the media during the last quarter of 2022, every indication is that Jones was signed and they were just waiting on Ngannou.

 

[AmonTobin]

That's the thing though.

If Jones hadn't actually come to terms yet with the UFC, but an 8 million dollar fight with Jones was put Into Franks contract as a bargaining chip to get him to stay with the organization for multiple fights

Then let's say Jones decided not to sign.

This would effectively make the 3 fight deal Ngannou signed null and void.

A contract constructed under false pretenses. It would open up the potential for legal action as well on the part of Ngannou.

This is something you might expect from bush league organizations. But not the UFC.

You'd be correct if they were just negotiating for a single fight. But the implications were a lot bigger here.

In any case, it's a moot point, if we're to pay attention to Chael and the media during the last quarter of 2022, every indication is that Jones was signed and they were just waiting on Ngannou.

Jones may have been committed to fighting at HW as a condition of his return, but there is no proof that he legally contractually obligated himself to fight Ngannou specifically.

 

[Shilajit]

Jones may have been committed to fighting at HW as a condition of his return, but there is no proof that he legally contractually obligated himself to fight Ngannou specifically.

Presumably his contract entailed fighting for the HW belt. As we've established before, it's the only way the UFC would give him a big money contract.

Whether he fought Ngannou or Gane was likely dependent on whether Ngannou signed and obviously he chose a different direction.

 

[Deleted member 513083]

You will never get 100% Evidence, Dana is a businessman first and it would be super idiotic to release anything that would discredit the fighter still under his contract.

It's entirely possible that Jones didn't wanna fight with Ngannou but at the same time there is no definite proof of it. Its all speculation which is understandable, but I think the chances of finding that undeniable proof are rather slim. Unless something like a phonecall or DMs are leaked we are left to our own devices.
I would have loved to see that fight but sadly that isn't gonna happen in this timeline I think.

 

[Phill]

That's the thing though.

If Jones hadn't actually come to terms yet with the UFC, but an 8 million dollar fight with Jones was put Into Franks contract as a bargaining chip to get him to stay with the organization for multiple fights

Then let's say Jones decided not to sign.

This would effectively make the 3 fight deal Ngannou signed null and void.

A contract constructed under false pretenses. It would open up the potential for legal action as well on the part of Ngannou.

This is something you might expect from bush league organizations. But not the UFC.

You'd be correct if they were just negotiating for a single fight. But the implications were a lot bigger here.

In any case, it's a moot point, if we're to pay attention to Chael and the media during the last quarter of 2022, every indication is that Jones was signed and they were just waiting on Ngannou.

You're claiming things as fact that are totally false, It doesn't even make logical sense, and it's obvious that you don't actually know the nuance here.

It doesn't make a difference that this was for a new multi-fight contract. It is completely false that the UFC wouldn't offer Frank a new contract unless Jones already agreed. It's not true that this would "open up the potential for a legal shit storm".

Let's use your own logic here: how would Jones have signed a contract agreeing to fight Ngannou, if Ngannou himself hasn't signed and agreed to it?

Can Jon now open up a legal case against the UFC since it never materialized?

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

Jones / Ngannou is this generation's Randy / Fedor or Fedor / UFC.

 

[AmonTobin]

Presumably his contract entailed fighting for the HW belt. As we've established before, it's the only way the UFC would give him a big money contract.

Whether he fought Ngannou or Gane was likely dependent on whether Ngannou signed and obviously he chose a different direction.

How do you know it’s the only way the UFC would give Jones a big money contract? He’s a superstar. He could fight anyone in the division for his first HW fight and make the money he got. Do you even know how much money jones was asking for and how much Jones ended up getting? I don’t think you do. He could have agreed to fight for the belt only if it was vacant. He could have agreed to fight for the belt as his second and possibly last HW fight. I think he had more freedom of choice than the boxed-in, legally bound figure you’re depicting.

 

[AmonTobin]

You will never get 100% Evidence, Dana is a businessman first and it would be super idiotic to release anything that would discredit the fighter still under his contract.

It's entirely possible that Jones didn't wanna fight with Ngannou but at the same time there is no definite proof of it. Its all speculation which is understandable, but I think the chances of finding that undeniable proof are rather slim. Unless something like a phonecall or DMs are leaked we are left to our own devices.
I would have loved to see that fight but sadly that isn't gonna happen in this timeline I think.

Oh to see those private msgs..

 

[Shilajit]

You're claiming things as fact that are totally false, It doesn't even make logical sense, and it's obvious that you don't actually know the nuance here.

It doesn't make a difference that this was for a new multi-fight contract. It is completely false that the UFC wouldn't offer Frank a new contract unless Jones already agreed. It's not true that this would "open up the potential for a legal shit storm".

Let's use your own logic here: how would Jones have signed a contract agreeing to fight Ngannou, if Ngannou himself hasn't signed and agreed to it?

Can Jon now open up a legal case against the UFC since it never materialized?

who says Jones was signed to fight Ngannou?

He was likely signed to fight for the HW title. And his opponent was dependent on what Ngannou decided to do. Various media excerpts point in this direction.

So, do you think if Ngannou was lured to sign a 3 fight deal and stay with the organization based on false pretenses, that it would just be perfectly fine?

If this happened and Ngannou lost the Jones fight as a result of the UFC being dishonest during negotiations, it would be a big deal.

I was responding to your own legal post. That a contract is not valid until two parties agree.

So, hypothetically, if Ngannou had signed a 3 fight deal, it was later learned that Jones hadn't signed yet and he subsequently decided to stay retired, the fight doesn't happen.

This would effectively make Ngannou's 3 fight contract null and void and if the UFC argued otherwise, Ngannou would have the grounds to pursue legal action in order to be released.

What you're saying would be accurate if it were just a one fight deal, those fall through all the time as you mentioned.

But in this case, the whole basis behind getting Ngannou to resign would be the 8 million dollar Jones fight. It was their biggest bargaining chip to get him to stay with the organization.

It would mean the contract was signed under false pretenses

Obviously this is all just conjecture though because the UFC wouldn't be dumb enough to do any of this.

 

[AmonTobin]

You're claiming things as fact that are totally false, It doesn't even make logical sense, and it's obvious that you don't actually know the nuance here.

It doesn't make a difference that this was for a new multi-fight contract. It is completely false that the UFC wouldn't offer Frank a new contract unless Jones already agreed. It's not true that this would "open up the potential for a legal shit storm".

Let's use your own logic here: how would Jones have signed a contract agreeing to fight Ngannou, if Ngannou himself hasn't signed and agreed to it?

Can Jon now open up a legal case against the UFC since it never materialized?

He might be getting this confused with a different type of business transaction. Like he’s depicting the legal ramifications in the hypothetical scenario that if Ngannou paid the ufc for a guaranteed match and they backed out, or if he already fought Jones and they never paid him, he’d have grounds to pursue legal action against them for not fulfilling their end of the bargain. Except he’s not paying, the UFC is paying him. Anyone of the parties can back out since nothing has occurred, so nothing is owed.

 

[Shilajit]

How do you know it’s the only way the UFC would give Jones a big money contract? He’s a superstar. He could fight anyone in the division for his first HW fight and make the money he got. Do you even know how much money jones was asking for and how much Jones ended up getting? I don’t think you do. He could have agreed to fight for the belt only if it was vacant. He could have agreed to fight for the belt as his second and possibly last HW fight. I think he had more freedom of choice than the boxed-in, legally bound figure you’re depicting.

Back when Jones called out Ngannou in 2021, he wanted big money. But at the time, Ngannou wasn't the champ.

The UFC wasn't willing to pay it. Part of this is likely because of covid restrictions, lack of crowd, etc. But you simply can't justify a 10+ million dollar payday unless he's fighting for a belt.

That's the reality of PPV sales. If Jones fought a random heavyweight, It wouldn't maximize the potential of his drawing power.

The UFC is willing to pay big money, but it has to make business sense. And maximizing star / drawing power would presumably be a big sticking point and ensuring that giving him what he's asking for benefits all parties to the fullest extent.

Which obviously happened. Gane Jones was a huge event.

On every level, Jones coming back and fighting for the HW title made the most sense. This is what was being negotiated for much of 2022, so it would be odd if anything but this happened.

Jones only fighting for the HW title if its vacant is some wild reaching.

 

[AmonTobin]

who says Jones was signed to fight Ngannou?

He was likely signed to fight for the HW title. And his opponent was dependent on what Ngannou decided to do. Various media excerpts point in this direction.

So, do you think if Ngannou was lured to sign a 3 fight deal and stay with the organization based on false pretenses, that it would just be perfectly fine?

If this happened and Ngannou lost the Jones fight as a result of the UFC being dishonest during negotiations, it would be a big deal.

I was responding to your own legal post. That a contract is not valid until two parties agree.

So, hypothetically, if Ngannou had signed a 3 fight deal, it was later learned that Jones hadn't signed yet and he subsequently decided to stay retired, the fight doesn't happen.

This would effectively make Ngannou's 3 fight contract null and void and if the UFC argued otherwise, Ngannou would have the grounds to pursue legal action in order to be released.

What you're saying would be accurate if it were just a one fight deal, those fall through all the time as you mentioned.

But in this case, the whole basis behind getting Ngannou to resign would be the 8 million dollar Jones fight. It was their biggest bargaining chip to get him to stay with the organization.

It would mean the contract was signed under false pretenses

Obviously this is all just conjecture though because the UFC wouldn't be dumb enough to do any of this.

If a fighter was seeking monetary compensation for not getting the fight they were promised and the price tag with it, they would seek financial resolution but they could’t legally obligate a fighter to fight or to fight a specific person. Furthermore, Ngannou vs Jones was never officially announced.

 

[Shilajit]

He might be getting this confused with a different type of business transaction. Like he’s depicting the legal ramifications in the hypothetical scenario that if Ngannou paid the ufc for a guaranteed match and they backed out, or if he already fought Jones and they never paid him, he’d have grounds to pursue legal action against them for not fulfilling their end of the bargain. Except he’s not paying, the UFC is paying him. Anyone of the parties can back out since nothing has occurred, so nothing is owed.

Again, if they were just negotiating for a single fight then you'd be correct.

But it's because the Jones fight was used as a bargaining chip to coerce Ngannou to stay with the organization and sign a 3 fight deal that it's a different dilemma with greater implications.

If Jones wasn't signed by the organization at that point, then it would mean the UFC was dishonest during negotiations and the 3 fight deal was made under false pretenses. Since it would have been the only basis for signing the contract to begin with.

The UFC is too smart to do this though. They wouldn't offer Ngannou the 3 fight deal with Jones as the capstone unless Jones was already committed to fighting for the belt.