Some Baseball Players Who Should be in the Hall of Fame
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those are separate. otherwise joe torre would be in as a player too
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Jim Edmonds
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no. to me you should just know who a hall of famer is. should be no doubt. you shouldnt have to wonder. why the hell isnt tim raines in therre? by todays standards he should be. but if its me
Hall of famer: babe ruth, hank aaron, willie mays, stan musial, derek jeter, greg maddux, cy young, ty cobb, roberto clemente, honus wagner, walter johnson, hank greenberg, jimmy fox, tom seaver, johnny bench, ernie banks, etc.
there is no doubt that those guys are hall of famers.
not a hall of famer: bert blyleven, don sutton, tinkers, evers and chance, bill mazeroski, phil rizzuto, bob lemon, bruce sutter, etc.
now there are so many border line cases, it is all politics. no way lou whitaker isnt better than bill mazeroski for example.
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There has to be some gray area. The spectrum doesn't go from elite of the elite, to guys who just had really careers. The point is, where do you draw the line? Who is the worst guy go be in, or the best to be out?
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well naturally there has to be a line and it is always subjective. but i still want to know pretty clearly that a guy is a hall of famer. here, this is my "bottom rung" hall of famers and guys who should be just out
in
wade boggs, tom glavine, rickey henderson, joe morgan, eddie murray
out
don drysdale, carlton fisk, frank thomas, ron santo
thats off the top of my head without really studying. of course you could argue my choices there as some are better than the others. glavine only gets in because he made it to 300 wins.
when i was a kid, wade boggs was incredible. i hated him, but every year he was dominating in hits. henderson was also considered a beast. all the stolen bases and hr's from the leadoff spot. i guess that is it for me. were you considered the best of the best? because thomas was always just really good. drydale barely had more wins than losses and his era wasnt great and his k's were nothing special. if he didnt have koufax with him, he wouldnt be in. fisk would be the toughest omission for me
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At some point you had to be a top 5 player in the league imo
Regardless of juice Albert Belle was better than Palmeiro and Bernie Williams.
Regardless of juice Albert Belle was better than Palmeiro and Bernie Williams.
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1. Bill James has written a great book on the Hall of Fame and has done all sorts of analysis of who should be in and who shouldn't - he was a big advocate of Ron Santo.
2. If every player who was better than the worst player in the Hall of Fame were to be admitted, we might have two or three thousand players in the HOF.
3. You really have to distinguish "peak value" (a player's best 3 or 4 seasons) and career value. Sandy Koufax had a higher peak value than Warren Spahn but Warren Spahn had a much higher career value.
4. Playing in New York used to help because of media attention.
5. Statistical distortion is a huge factor - batting averages of certain players in 1930 look awesome but you have to remember that the American League average for the entire league including pitchers was .300 - so hitting .330 in that context is no big deal.
6. The same may be true for home run records over the past 25 years.
7. If the standard is - "Is he arguably the GOAT at his position?" I would include -
C - Cochrane, Campanella, Berra, Bench
1B - Gehrig, Foxx
2B - Collins, Hornsby, Robinson, Morgan
SS - Wagner, AROD
3B - Schmidt
OF - Cobb, Speaker, Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Williams, Musial, Henderson(best leadoff hitter ever),
SP - Johnson, Grove, Koufax (peak value), Seaver
RP - Fingers, Rivera
Obviously, the bar has been set much much lower.
2. If every player who was better than the worst player in the Hall of Fame were to be admitted, we might have two or three thousand players in the HOF.
3. You really have to distinguish "peak value" (a player's best 3 or 4 seasons) and career value. Sandy Koufax had a higher peak value than Warren Spahn but Warren Spahn had a much higher career value.
4. Playing in New York used to help because of media attention.
5. Statistical distortion is a huge factor - batting averages of certain players in 1930 look awesome but you have to remember that the American League average for the entire league including pitchers was .300 - so hitting .330 in that context is no big deal.
6. The same may be true for home run records over the past 25 years.
7. If the standard is - "Is he arguably the GOAT at his position?" I would include -
C - Cochrane, Campanella, Berra, Bench
1B - Gehrig, Foxx
2B - Collins, Hornsby, Robinson, Morgan
SS - Wagner, AROD
3B - Schmidt
OF - Cobb, Speaker, Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Williams, Musial, Henderson(best leadoff hitter ever),
SP - Johnson, Grove, Koufax (peak value), Seaver
RP - Fingers, Rivera
Obviously, the bar has been set much much lower.
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by todays standards, santo certainly belongs. just not in my more difficult to get into hall. you have a good list. koufax was SO dominant in his short career, no way he could be left off. his best 5 or 6 years are as good as anyones. but people like don sutton, jim kaat, niekro, perry, etc just were really consistent for a really long time. imo, they shouldnt be in. in fact, i am not even so sure glavine should be there.
there is so much mediocrity in there. they could eliminate so many so easy. nellie foxx, lloyd waner, bert blyleven. jim rice, etc. all really good, but not dominant at all. in fact, i am not sure blyleven was even the best pitcher on any of his teams, let alone a top pitcher in the league. when i was little, i remember len barker being the ace of the indians
also, i think mattingly belongs in there over a LOT of guys who got in there because of long careers. he had a decade of being a top 5 AL player
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belle wasnt blackballed. his hip was shot
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Wikipedia seems to agree with you but I swear I remember hearing black ball stories
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i dont remember hearing it. and a quick search didnt turn anything up. his main problem though was that he was an asshole. so it definitely could have thwarted any comeback attempts. he wants an overpaid, hurt asshole on a team?
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Cecil Fielder and Allan Trammell... and yes I'm a Tigers fan
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me too. grew up going to games in the $3 bleacher seats. I dont think Cecil's run was nearly long enough. but he gave us a couple awesome years.Cecil Fielder and Allan Trammell... and yes I'm a Tigers fan
that mid 80's tiger team gets no respect at all. not a single hall of famer when an argument can be made for 6 or 7.
Lou Whitaker- belongs
Alan Trammell- belongs
Lance Parrish- close, but not quite. had he stayed with the tigers, then maybe
Jack Morris- yes
Darrell Evans- close, close, but not quite. though you can argue him over many in now
frank tanana- hall of pretty good. had he not got hurt early in his career, he might of been a legend
chet lemon- no. but he stacks up nicely to jim rice
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Great post. I was born in 80 and started playing baseball in 87 so I'm a little to young for those glory years, but I certainly remember those players. I remember being at my Grandparents house and watching the games with my Grandpa. He would turn the volume down on the television and turn on the radio so he could listen to Ernie Harwell call the game. Everything was analog back then so it synced up perfectly.
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yea, i lived for the games back then. i was born in 73, so they came into the league just as i got old enough. lou whitaker was my favorite player. i think he had like a .450 avg whenever i watched him, so if i always watched him, he would be the greatest player of all time.
but kaline and kell were good on tv. still remember spending lazy days at my aunts on the weekend and turning it to channel 4. i still even remember the tiger graphic they used where the tiger would eat the logo of whatever team they played.
i loved ernie harwell. the best memories of my youth were going to bed with the radio on and listening to him call the games. best ever imo.
another great thing about back then was that guys stayed there for a long time. now guys leave every 2 years. we had lou and trammell there for their entire career. parrish, lemon, morris, herndon, petry, gibson, etc there for large chunks of their careers. you really got to know them.
same with the pistons.
lions and red wings were so bad that they had higher turnover though.
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I was at a Tigers Orioles game around 1984 and Parrish got ahead of a change up and pulled it sharply into the stands behind third base. A fan was looking in the opposite direction and got hit and it sounded like the noise of a watermelon dropped from the top of the Chrysler Building hitting the sidewalk. They had an awesome team - I support putting Morris in the HOF - Trammell and Whitaker are close - shortstops are really hard to rank once you get by the first two or three, they are each better than some people in the HOF but that can't be the test or we would have thousands in there.
Darrell Evans is one of the hardest players to place because he played at multiple positions and very little of his offensive value is reflected in his batting average (lots of HRs and walks).
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The Lions were on top of the NFL when I was a kid in the 1950's. For some nutty reason they traded Bobby Layne to the Steelers and I went to a Steelers Giants game in the late 50's in which Layne (well past his prime) made the excellent Giant defense look flatfooted and beat them.
Of course, the Red Wings had Gordie Howe, Ted Linsday, Red Kelly, Sawchuck, etc.
The Tigers also had - of course - the Ty Cobb era and the a great run in the 30's and 40's with Greenberg, Gehringer, etc.
Great Ty Cobb story - A kid comes to a Tiger practice and announces to the management that he can strike out Ty Cobb on 3 pitches. They have some spare time and the kid looks big and rangy and they need more pitching and so they put him on the mound and Cobb gets in the batter's box. He throws the first pitch and Cobb hits it over the centerfield fence. He throws the second pitch and Cobb hits a line drive off the left field wall. He throws the third pitch and Cobb hits it over the right field wall. At this point, they are starting to think that they should keep this kid around to help Cobb get into a groove.
Anyhow, the kid walks off the mound and over to the manager and says, "Are you sure that's Ty Cobb?"
Of course, the Red Wings had Gordie Howe, Ted Linsday, Red Kelly, Sawchuck, etc.
The Tigers also had - of course - the Ty Cobb era and the a great run in the 30's and 40's with Greenberg, Gehringer, etc.
Great Ty Cobb story - A kid comes to a Tiger practice and announces to the management that he can strike out Ty Cobb on 3 pitches. They have some spare time and the kid looks big and rangy and they need more pitching and so they put him on the mound and Cobb gets in the batter's box. He throws the first pitch and Cobb hits it over the centerfield fence. He throws the second pitch and Cobb hits a line drive off the left field wall. He throws the third pitch and Cobb hits it over the right field wall. At this point, they are starting to think that they should keep this kid around to help Cobb get into a groove.
Anyhow, the kid walks off the mound and over to the manager and says, "Are you sure that's Ty Cobb?"
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i think trammell and whitaker are slam dunks if you rank them with other players at their position. the fact that they were a double play combination for so many years helps as well (especially considering the only reason tinker, evers and chance are in was because of a poem). whitaker was pretty quiet and not flashy, so that hurt him a lot. but his numbers in that era were as good as anyones. his WAR was better than sandberg's and Alomar's. ROY, multiple all star teams and golden gloves. but in that era, middle infielders didnt typically put up monster numbers.
trammell was the same as lou. more quiet and detroit was not new york.
morris had about good enough numbers. factor in his clutch performances and he deserves it. he was the best pitcher of the 80's.
evans, i agree. hard to figure him out, but easy to point out less deserving players already in
