Shogun, Mousasi, Romero...

Kvothe_the_kingkiller said:
Conor got the most....and yet he did crush a lot of cats, so it was deserved. So when a guy deserves a hype level of 8.5 and gets an 11, does that put him into the "most hyped" category? Hard to say.

Brock got the second most, but the hype died down after two severe beatdowns.

I can see why people say Shogun was overhyped. But here's a question: where do you rank him after Jon Jones? Is he tied for 2nd with Rampage, Wandy, Chuck and Hendo? Is he 7th? 3rd or 4th? I can understand any of those answers. So is a guy who's possibly 2nd best LHW ever but had a mediocre middle career with multiple surgeries really "overhyped"? Because isn't that really what his fans are saying; that he's right up there in the best ever category (excluding Jones of course)....and that his mediocre middle career was hampered by surgeries.

Mousasi is a great fighter in the classic sense, but his losses to Jacare & Machida will forever haunt him. And by 'classic sense' I mean guys that fight 50 or 60 times usually have a few bad losses. I swear, in today's day and age, some sherdoggers would mock Sugar Ray Robinson for his loss to La Motta....

And about Romero....that's a strawman. People think he's very good (because he is), and many think he should have got the nod in Whittaker 2. But the mock backlash cliche is "Romero never lost....according to his fans". It's a silly cliche. TS can do better than to use a mocking strawman cliche as foundation for a counter argument.
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I'm not talking about hype. I don't think someone can be overhyped. Hype just means people are excited to see you perform. I wish all the fighters to have as much hype as possible. The 3 guys in my OP are all legends and deserve as much hype as they get of not more. When I say they are overrated, that's something that is a highly subjective observation of their abilities compared to what I've observed on these forums.
Kvothe_the_kingkiller said:
Well @GoshiShun17 , it sure is easy to pick out "all those others" who think (or more likely, once thought) something that turned out to be wrong and laugh at them, Monday Morning Quarterback style.

Question for you: in hindsight, who have you overrated? Extra credit: who do you likely overrate today?

My answer: I've overrated Vinny Magalhaes, John Dodson, and Mousasi. Recently like most I either overrated Cormier or underrated Stipe. And for extra credit, today I likely overrate RDA.
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LOL I don't mean to come off as captain Hindsight. Like I said I'm not trying to discredit anyone's accomplishments. As for who I've overrated that's hard to answer for me. I don't consider being wrong about a fight necessarily mean you overrated a fighter.

I can say a couple guys that I underrated in the past were Khabib and Tony Ferguson. It took me a while to be convinced how great they were. Mostly with Tony.
 
GoshiShun17 said:
I'm not talking about hype. I don't think someone can be overhyped. Hype just means people are excited to see you perform. I wish all the fighters to have as much hype as possible. The 3 guys in my OP are all legends and deserve as much hype as they get of not more. When I say they are overrated, that's something that is a highly subjective observation of their abilities compared to what I've observed on these forums.

LOL I don't mean to come off as captain Hindsight. Like I said I'm not trying to discredit anyone's accomplishments. As for who I've overrated that's hard to answer for me. I don't consider being wrong about a fight necessarily mean you overrated a fighter.

I can say a couple guys that I underrated in the past were Khabib and Tony Ferguson. It took me a while to be convinced how great they were. Mostly with Tony.
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Interesting.
1) there's a difference between hype and overrating someone? really? is the difference longevity of said....hype or overratedness?
2) yes, it's all highly subjective. which is why i wanted you to answer. but...
3) i notice you didn't answer my question, but instead found fighters you have underrated. cmon man, that's a cop out. if you cannot do an honest introspection of yourself.....

Because really, if you cannot laugh at your own mistakes in rating others, you shouldn't laugh mock when others do.

But if you cannot even identify any mistakes you may have made...well, that's a whole level deeper, my friend.
 
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Kvothe_the_kingkiller said:
Interesting.
1) no difference between hype and overrating? Really?
2) yes, it's highly subjective.
3) i notice you didn't answer my question, but instead found fighters you have underrated. cmon man, that's a cop out. if you cannot do honest introspection yourself.....
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LOL. Right now I rate Adesanya VERY highly. But even if by some catastrophic event that he loses his next fight, I still won't feel like I overrated him.

I guess in the past I may have overrated Jose Aldo. I didn't believe anyone could hang with him on the feet. Maybe Cub Swanson. I thought he would get a titleshot.

But that's the thing. It's hard to say I'm overeating someone personally because it's my opinion of their rating. I can say I'm biased sure.

Hell I may have overrated Shogun a bit as far as his striking ability is concerned. But I wasn't crazy enough to say shit like he was gonna sweep Jon Jones and leg lock him. And his loss to Jones isn't the reason I felt I overrated him because Jones was a different level beast.
 
GoshiShun17 said:
Who is the most overrated fighter in Sherdog history? I'm not talking about overrated by the "casual fans" or general public. I'm talking specifically about members of these forums.

Almost anytime these men are brought up, people act as if no one could beat them when evidence suggests otherwise. Shogun not so much anymore, but for a long time people couldn't get over "prime" Shogun. The man's prime was so short it's almost irrelevant, lol. But at least he was able to defeat the undefeated Dragon. Unlike the next contender.

Mousasi fans always swear by him that he can beat almost any opponent by whatever he wants not named Jon Jones. But this guy got schooled by an older Machida, when he was touted by his fans as a striking GOD, who would eat Anderson for breakfast. Ironically the only other person people feel Gegard would match up badly against is someone I think he'd beat.

That man is Yoel "Never loses a fight according to God" Romero. According to Sherdog he's the scariest fighter to ever live. With his muscles and Olympic wrestling that he rarely relies on. "But his muscles and his power." Don't get me wrong, Romero is a fighting genius in his own right, but he is limited. Much more so than many of his fans can see.

So who takes the crown, or is there someone else you have in mind.
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At one point it was Wandy.

Got to say Fedor because most times someone's massively overrated the Sherdog community realizes the error of their ways, with Fedor that hasn't happened so guess it'd have to be him.
 
Shogun has won enough fights in the past years he wasn't "supposed to". Even vs Machida people were counting him out. That's not the definition of overrated. And the guy went toe to toe with PED hendo twice and held his own, even though he took two L's. The first fight is still a draw imo. Have a good day :-)
 
tbh Moose is the GOAT middleweight resume wise (the latest robbery can be ignored).
 
Shogun was a killer in Pride. Wand not being champion, Shogun would have been the king there.

Knowing all his knee injuries, and how different the ruleset is in UFC (soccerkicks are banned, the cage....), Shogun still managed to become UFC LHW Champ.

He also defeated some newcomers in post prime days. And he lost the belt against the LHW GOAT.

No shame there. Shogun is legit.
 
Cain is the guy. Unproven, overhyped, somewhat protected by the UFC, And still a lot of guys praise him as a top 3 goat HW.
 
Kvothe_the_kingkiller said:
Who's that, Mousasi? (It's hard following this particular convo).

The problem isn't that he isn't great. He is. The problem is that people overhyped him in 08, 09, 10, 11, and then held onto that after his losses to Machida & Jacare.

Now, he had just come off several years of surgeries and relatively low activity. Fighting Machida was daft. First fight in the UFC coming off surgeries and low activity, against a guy who timing is everything. Mousasi's timing and his was bound to be off, and it was, and he got embarrassed.

I have a harder applying context (what others might call "justifying") his loss against Jacare. He just simply lost to a better fighter.

That gave us real insight into Mousasi's skillset. He's great. But he wasn't far and away better than the best MW's of his era. He is/was only merely right there with them. Luke, Chris, Yoel, Jacare, Machida, Whittaker....and yes, Gegard. He may or may not be at the bottom end of that class.

But damn. Those two losses.
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Disagree- again timing and circumstances. This machida fight the way it was talked about is hysterical. I had moose losing 48-47 in a chess match where he outsruck him 66-35 but lost fight on significant strikes.....its why I use mute button. Jacare 2 was the best thing that happened to him. He changed EVERYTHING around after that ( like most elites do when they suffer early setbacks in UFC). Instead of having brother take care of everything, he actually put together a team headed by Kops and FINALLY TRAINED like an elite.....not to mention the " hulking jacare " he fought wasn't quite the same fighter Whitaker got to fight. See pre jacare-boetsch-lol....even Michael f%$king Bisping was all over his " size difference " on his pod after some " warning ".that occured. They're 1-1 and jacare is not a better fighter than mousasi and Gegard would be a decent favorite over him today just like he will against machida ( which isnt saying much at this point).
I'll take todays mousasi over prime and clean jacare ..... everytime. If I'm wrong then I'll turn out to be wrong.
If I have no legs to stand on then what I can I possibly say. I actually do try to be fair.
People lack a certain basic common sense when it comes to this game and certain fighters evolving and some dont.

People reference fights 4-5 years ago which in most cases .....mean nothing-

That was then ... this is now.
If things happened in reverse ( he came toUFC, ,started on fire and got title shot but lost and then started to exchange wins and losses - and was released after a 2 fight skid cause he was demanding a better contract then you wouldn't hear jack shit from me.
Fortunately- that's not the case. He was 12-3 under zuffa umbrella and only fighter in UFC history to leave promotion on 5 fight stoppage streak ( well 4 and the complete 15 minute prison rape of poor Thales Leites........ the same BJJ practitioner who walked down bisping fir 25 minutes in a split decision only a few months earlier. In fact- the main event that night was originally mousasi bisping but the aging Anderson came in and the brit was quickly relieved of opponent change. Think if that didnt happen- agsin, timing and circumstances. Mousasi mollywhops bisping as a 3- 1 favorite and in turn , bisping doesn't get late change title call. OH, THE DOMINO EFFECT of the 185 division. Who knows what happens after that. Maybe Gegard still here. ..maybe he wins title ....maybe not .

* timing and circumstances

Sorry for the essay.
 
RaZer Cruz said:
Where have you been mate? people were ranking him as the greatest BW ever before his PED test.
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Shop worm and multiple surgeries affected Cruz beat TJ. No rational person seriously should call TJ the BW Goat.
 
I_IZ_BACK said:
How about BJ Penn?
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yeah this is my vote as well. at his peak, his fans were pretty damn irrational, like fedor hype before the werdum loss. it was at that level.
 
probably Cro Cop

people think he is in HW GOAT discussion just because he lost to Fedor

the guy had some great KO wins but he never won a belt in a major org
best win is Josh Barnett in the GP
 
The ScorpioN said:
tbh Moose is the GOAT middleweight resume wise (the latest robbery can be ignored).
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Seriously Goat MW resume? Must have an extensive run including a lengthy championship run. Hang on doesn’t really sound like Moose does it? There’s one GOAT MW lad and it’s clearly Anderson Silva.
 
LetThemBleed said:
Seriously Goat MW resume? Must have an extensive run including a lengthy championship run. Hang on doesn’t really sound like Moose does it? There’s one GOAT MW lad and it’s clearly Anderson Silva.
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Imagine being this new to human cockfighting.
 
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