Movies Serious Movie Discussion

[Rimbaud82]

Joker (2019)

Fell very flat for me I must say. Apart from the typically excellent performance from Phoenix I found it to be a largely mediocre film. I simply can't get past the fact that I have already seen these same themes tackled before in other films and in a much more sophisticated way. Yes, of course I am primarily referring Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy. Everyone knows this and indeed Joker itself references those influences. Yet those references or homages seem to me nearly like a way of preemptively deflecting the comparisons. However, there is simply no comparison. Those films are far more subtle, nuanced portrayals of depressed, socially isolated characters set against the world in which they live, and simply much better films.

Joker is , dare I say it, completely cartoonish in it's handling of themes. There is no subtlety. From the very beginning a series of successively awful things happen to Arthur - he is viciously beaten for no reason by a bunch of kids, he loses his job etc. etc. Nearly every character is either cruel, abusive or simply disinterested towards him. It is completely heavy handed in approach. It utilises a veneer of mental health as essentially a plot device to explain Fleck's descent into further madness. Knowing that all this is simply a vehicle to arrive at the arch-nemesis for the Batman severely lessens the impact as well.

The character's in Scorsese films are deeply alienated individuals, but for is not necessarily any obvious reason for their depression and isolation. They are born out of the real feelings of Scorsese and Schrader. While we sympathise with them and some of their social criticisms by virtue of the films being from their perspective, it is ultimately a psychological interrogation of their damaged way of thinking. In Joker, some very obviously bad things happen to Arthur Fleck in succession, he is ground down by this until he eventually goes completely and violently insane...and becomes the Joker. It just strikes a hollow note with me.

Even if we charitably say that it wears it's influences on it's sleeve to try and reflect contemporary issues, I don't think it is successful in this regard either. It raises some important themes regarding mental health funding, class conflict; in other respects it does reflect modern trends of "inceldom", but it doesn't really go anywhere with them. They don't have any real impact because of the way in which they are forced into this origin story.

 

[Rimbaud82]

There is something funny about that fervent devil cult consisting primarily of crusty old people.

Naked old people are clearly terrifying

I think that there is a particularly clever way with which this theme is played with in the ending.

She's given birth to the Antichrist, and despite reacting in horror, she's soon overwhelmed with an instinct to nurture and foster this incarnation of evil. She's literally been conditioned to internalized her role to such an extent that she will even unreflectively act as a mother for Satan Jr.

Maternal instincts are often depicted as the heights of goodness (though, for pretty good reasons, I suppose). But here Rosemary's Baby presents a scenario where that socially-pressurized, doctornated instincts gets turned into something evil. She knows that it's a monster, yet will raise it anyways, because she's so blinded by motherly love. It's a good instinct manipulated to facilitate evil. Kind of how like how the goodness of motherhood is often facilitated to serve repressive ends on a social level.

Good point, very well put in terms of "a good instinct manipulated to facilitate evil". I think those kind of themes are one reason why the film holds up so well today.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Possession (1981)

Christ almighty this is one intense, insane, fucked up film. An absolutely deranged drama about marital breakdown - featuring violent shouting matches, adultery, jealousy, self-mutilation with electric kitchen knives, and the like - which morphs into a completely horrifying tale of psychological body horror. That theme implied by the title - possession and the desire to possess - applies equally to the elements of horror as it does the sexual and dramatic aspects of the film.

It's not the case, however, that the film starts off as a drama and then becomes more intense as it shifts genres. From almost the very start we are faced with a state of complete emotional ferocity. As the more disturbing elements are introduced to the film it becomes more horrifying, but the intensity remains nearly constant throughout.

Brilliant performance from Sam Neill, but most especially from Isabelle Adjani who reaches a state of such feverish intensity it is terrifying in and of itself (some contrast from Nosferatu I must say). Having watched Żuławski's Diabel and On The Silver Globe previously I was somewhat familiar with his propensity for exaggerated performances. Like in those films it goes far far beyond mere melodrama; the performances suggest something more like the human psyche, or the human soul itself being broken apart and spread bare. In its drama Possession something like the marital crisis of Godard's Le Mepris, or the cinema of Bergman, cranked up to the absolute nth degree. It is absolutely wild stuff.

One thing's for sure, this is not a film you will forget in a hurry.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Big Night (1996)

A wonderfully human film about great food and failing businesses, about the ever-elusive American dream and the harsh reality, about love and heartbreak and, in the end, about the importance of family and the bonds between two brothers. Just a great film, full of wit and charm. The ending is absolutely pitch perfect. Tutto buonissimo!

 

[moreorless87]

Joker (2019)

Fell very flat for me I must say. Apart from the typically excellent performance from Phoenix I found it to be a largely mediocre film. I simply can't get past the fact that I have already seen these same themes tackled before in other films and in a much more sophisticated way. Yes, of course I am primarily referring Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy. Everyone knows this and indeed Joker itself references those influences. Yet those references or homages seem to me nearly like a way of preemptively deflecting the comparisons. However, there is simply no comparison. Those films are far more subtle, nuanced portrayals of depressed, socially isolated characters set against the world in which they live, and simply much better films.

Joker is , dare I say it, completely cartoonish in it's handling of themes. There is no subtlety. From the very beginning a series of successively awful things happen to Arthur - he is viciously beaten for no reason by a bunch of kids, he loses his job etc. etc. Nearly every character is either cruel, abusive or simply disinterested towards him. It is completely heavy handed in approach. It utilises a veneer of mental health as essentially a plot device to explain Fleck's descent into further madness. Knowing that all this is simply a vehicle to arrive at the arch-nemesis for the Batman severely lessens the impact as well.

The character's in Scorsese films are deeply alienated individuals, but for is not necessarily any obvious reason for their depression and isolation. They are born out of the real feelings of Scorsese and Schrader. While we sympathise with them and some of their social criticisms by virtue of the films being from their perspective, it is ultimately a psychological interrogation of their damaged way of thinking. In Joker, some very obviously bad things happen to Arthur Fleck in succession, he is ground down by this until he eventually goes completely and violently insane...and becomes the Joker. It just strikes a hollow note with me.

Even if we charitably say that it wears it's influences on it's sleeve to try and reflect contemporary issues, I don't think it is successful in this regard either. It raises some important themes regarding mental health funding, class conflict; in other respects it does reflect modern trends of "inceldom", but it doesn't really go anywhere with them. They don't have any real impact because of the way in which they are forced into this origin story.

I didn't really find the idea of the film as a "original for a Batman villain" much of a negative personally, the film doesn't really look to focus much on setting that up or indeed on existing attachment to the characters. Thomas Wayne exists much more as a character for his own sake rather than just being Bruces father, indeed even Bruce himself is used mostly for the stories benefit.

I would say as well that whilst it drew on those Marty classics I think the film itself isn't really aiming to recreate them, I think its moreso a way of taking those influence and even moreso a lot of Phenoix's performances over the last decade and putting them into a more accessible package for the mainstream. A bit depressing I spose that these days a film like Taxi Driver would be limited to an arthouse audience but still its nice to see a genuinely strong acting performance get mainstream attension.

 

[Rimbaud82]

I didn't really find the idea of the film as a "original for a Batman villain" much of a negative personally, the film doesn't really look to focus much on setting that up or indeed on existing attachment to the characters. Thomas Wayne exists much more as a character for his own sake rather than just being Bruces father, indeed even Bruce himself is used mostly for the stories benefit.

I have to say it did for me. I don't even simply mean that they used "gotham" or the "wayne family" gratuitously. You don't need to know that the film sets up it up per se, simply knowing the film is an origin story for Joker lent everything that happens a kind of dull fatalism. Whatever happens it inexorably is leading to a predefined thing, and the themes the film ostensibly tries to explore are merely in service of that end goal.

I would say as well that whilst it drew on those Marty classics I think the film itself isn't really aiming to recreate them, I think its moreso a way of taking those influence and even moreso a lot of Phenoix's performances over the last decade and putting them into a more accessible package for the mainstream. A bit depressing I spose that these days a film like Taxi Driver would be limited to an arthouse audience but still its nice to see a genuinely strong acting performance get mainstream attension.

Nice to see Phoenix get more mainstream attention I agree, but I just feel the films influences wear far too heavily on it.

 

[moreorless87]

More of a disk review than a film review I spose but I picked up this german(its still in English) re release of Paris Texas on Monday...



Very significant improvement from the previous version, a lot sharper but also more colourful and grainy fitting into the kodachrome Americana very well indeed IMHO.

 

[Rimbaud82]

More of a disk review than a film review I spose but I picked up this german(its still in English) re release of Paris Texas on Monday...



Very significant improvement from the previous version, a lot sharper but also more colourful and grainy fitting into the kodachrome Americana very well indeed IMHO.

Have yet to watch this, might have to pick up this version if it is good

 

[Yotsuya]

Possession (1981)

Christ almighty this is one intense, insane, fucked up film. An absolutely deranged drama about marital breakdown - featuring violent shouting matches, adultery, jealousy, self-mutilation with electric kitchen knives, and the like - which morphs into a completely horrifying tale of psychological body horror. That theme implied by the title - possession and the desire to possess - applies equally to the elements of horror as it does the sexual and dramatic aspects of the film.

It's not the case, however, that the film starts off as a drama and then becomes more intense as it shifts genres. From almost the very start we are faced with a state of complete emotional ferocity. As the more disturbing elements are introduced to the film it becomes more horrifying, but the intensity remains nearly constant throughout.

Brilliant performance from Sam Neill, but most especially from Isabelle Adjani who reaches a state of such feverish intensity it is terrifying in and of itself (some contrast from Nosferatu I must say). Having watched Żuławski's Diabel and On The Silver Globe previously I was somewhat familiar with his propensity for exaggerated performances. Like in those films it goes far far beyond mere melodrama; the performances suggest something more like the human psyche, or the human soul itself being broken apart and spread bare. In its drama Possession something like the marital crisis of Godard's Le Mepris, or the cinema of Bergman, cranked up to the absolute nth degree. It is absolutely wild stuff.

One thing's for sure, this is not a film you will forget in a hurry.

Possession is the Evil Dead of psychodrama genre and Adjani is the x-factor that really steers the mood of the movie. There’s a lot of East European satirical absurdity and paranoia like Sam Neil’s over-the-top rival and

Spoiler

the doppelganger final

, but the psychodrama overtakes everything because of Adjani’s intensity.

 

[moreorless87]

I'v been meaning to get around to watching that for years.

Have yet to watch this, might have to pick up this version if it is good

I'm not normally one for pixel peeping at small differences on releases but I think it this case it helps the film achieve what it wants to quite a bit more successfully.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Possession is the Evil Dead of psychodrama genre and Adjani is the x-factor that really steers the mood of the movie. There’s a lot of East European satirical absurdity and paranoia like Sam Neil’s over-the-top rival and

Spoiler

the doppelganger final

, but the psychodrama overtakes everything because of Adjani’s intensity.

Absolutely agree, it was a completely wild, amazing performance.

 

[Drain Bamage]

Joker (2019)

Joker is , dare I say it, completely cartoonish in it's handling of themes. There is no subtlety.

While I still enjoyed the movie, I completely agree. I think subtlety is a lost art. It worked when there was less content out there for the masses to literally devour. I think subtlety requires some introspection, some actual thinking that people don't have or make time for anymore. You show somebody under the age of 25 Taxi Driver and they are literally bored to tears, they don't see what's going on under the surface.

 

[Drain Bamage]

Rosemary's Baby (1968)

Finally got round to this. Simply put, it is an absolute masterpiece of slow-burn, psychological horror.

Looking to move into a lavish apartment in New York City, Guy and Rosemary Woodhouse are warned by a friend that the Bramford building in which it is located is a haunted house of sorts, connected with all kinds of monstrous and diabolic deeds at the turn of the century - primarily cannibalism and witchcraft. From the very start of the film then, this element of occult horror is introduced. Introduced, but not dwelt upon. Rather it remains in the background, constantly lurking and bubbling beneath the surface of the films more worldly horrors (namely that of a young woman deprived of her autonomy and shackled by social exceptions). Of course, that is, until all of these elements come to the fore in the films utterly horrifying conclusion.

In the film we get the sense that there is something strange, perhaps sinister afoot, but the particulars are less clear. The old, strange couple next door appear to be overly-friendly, are they simply eccentric or is it something else? Constantly through the film there is a deliberate ambiguity with just a hint of something darker. As the pregnant Rosemary becomes increasingly frail something is clearly happening, but exactly who is involved and what are their motivations? Polanski expertly takes us through this uneasy, unsettling world of paranoia.

Being literally about a suspected plot involving a satanic cult and the Prince of Darkness himself, of course this provides the film with a firm footing in the realm of occult horror. But as I mentioned before, this element is largely in the background, darkly hinted at. The supernatural sometimes comes to the surface (as in Rosemary's terrifying dream), but what is perhaps equally horrible is her treatment by those nearest to her. Her husband Guy is an ambitious yet largely unsuccessful actor. Throughout the film he is distant, selfish and controlling towards Rosemary. Seemingly he cares more about his career than he does about her. Other characters - whether doctors, neighbors or her husband - always know what is best for her.

Stifled by social norms and financial dependence on her husband Rosemary can exercise little autonomy of her own. These themes are tragically interwoven with the occult and supernatural elements. Rosemary is being preyed upon by the forces of evil - there are “plots against people” after all - but had she possessed more personal autonomy there would have been more hope of escaping it. She is trapped within the confines of her role, as much as she is beset by satanic forces and it is the two that combine to chilling effect. It is simply an outstanding film, full of psychological and emotional complexity.

Oh man I wish I could go back in time and watch this again for the first time. Amazing movie.

Have you seen A Cure For Wellness? Check out the similarities in the soundtrack.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Oh man I wish I could go back in time and watch this again for the first time. Amazing movie.

Have you seen A Cure For Wellness? Check out the similarities in the soundtrack.

No I never did see A Cure For Wellness, remember thinking it looked creepy as fuck from the trailers though.

 

[Rimbaud82]

While I still enjoyed the movie, I completely agree. I think subtlety is a lost art. It worked when there was less content out there for the masses to literally devour. I think subtlety requires some introspection, some actual thinking that people don't have or make time for anymore. You show somebody under the age of 25 Taxi Driver and they are literally bored to tears, they don't see what's going on under the surface.

Well I'm 24 so don't know about that one lad lol <45>

 

[Drain Bamage]

Well I'm 24 so don't know about that one lad lol <45>

Well obviously there are exceptions. People who are interested in cinema for real are still around. But you are the minority. Most people your generation have horrific taste in movies. Back in the 70's slow burn movies like The Godfather and Taxi Driver were actually popular with your average person. Nowadays tastes are much more commercial and comic book oriented.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Well obviously there are exceptions. People who are interested in cinema for real are still around. But you are the minority. Most people your generation have horrific taste in movies. Back in the 70's slow burn movies like The Godfather and Taxi Driver were actually popular with your average person. Nowadays tastes are much more commercial and comic book oriented.

aye, to be fair

 

[Rimbaud82]

The Cabinet of Dr Caligari (1920)

Absolutely outstanding expressionist thriller (or early horror, as some would have it). Whatever genre you would have it in, this is a remarkable film. Finally got round to this after a few years of meaning to, but perhaps it is fitting on the centenary of it’s release.

The first thing that catches the eye is the films incredibly striking visual style. It is a far cry from cinematic realism. Shot on painted sets, the film is a flurry of jagged angles and sharp edges. Buildings seem to leer over the characters in an oppressive, sinister fashion. Windows, doorways and other objects are bent and curved out of proportion. Even the highly stylised intertitle cards reflect this deranged aesthetic. Here the camera does not seek to capture superficially the events depicted, but through this particular style it plunges into the deepest, darkest corners of human insanity. The plot itself - about a mass-murdering sleepwalker led by the eponymous Dr. Caligari - naturally suits these stylistic tendencies. The story itself is told as a frame narrative by an unreliable narrator, and further explores these fault lines between the sane and insane, and thereby seeks to portray man’s inner-self in all it’s psychotic, tormented forms...

Of course, in several respects, it is thus reflecting the psychological trauma inflicted on German society in the aftermath of the First World War. It is simply a startlingly original piece of cinema. Can’t believe I waited as long to watch it.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Tampopo (1985)

“First contemplate the ramen...”

What a wonderful film!! Often dubbed the first “Ramen Western”, Tampopo is a film about food and, in particular, about that ever-elusive perfect bowl of ramen. The tale itself is indeed rather simple. Two truck-drivers, Goro and Gun, get hungry reading about ramen on their journey and decide to stop for a bowl at a shabby roadside shop. Discovering that the ramen here is, in fact, rather sub-par, the grizzled Goro agrees to stay and help the widowed owner attain ramen perfection in order to save her struggling business.The tale is simple but this is merely the starting point, the broth as it were, for a flowing, expansive tale touching on all elements of human existence and even what it means to be alive. It is about food, but it’s also simply about life. It’s about the two things equally and the manner in which they are inseparably connected.

Tompopo is a perfect blend of genres and influences, just like the various ingredients added to a bowl of ramen (sorry I had to). There is, of course, a strong western influence as suggested by the whole “ramen western” designation. Indeed, the opening scene plays out like something like a Hollywood western as the two truckers roll up in a remote town and are greeted with a chilly reception from some belligerent locals... It’s no coincidence that Goro even dresses like a gunslinger. With his checked shirt and cowboy hat he could have walked straight out of a Clint Eastwood film. Yet it’s as much of a cultural reclaiming as anything, since those same westerns borrowed liberally from Japanese samurai films. It’s a dynamic which the film has a lot of fun with and which is continued throughout. But there are plenty of other genres brought into play throughout - romantic drama, martial arts films etc. - all in a delightfully humorous style.

The main story of Tampopo’s ramen shop runs the whole way through, but the film is not afraid to meander off in many other directions. Along the way we are treated to several seemingly unconnected little vignettes, all telling their own small stories but all ultimately connected through some vague, human logic - uptight businessmen in a fancy French restaurant upstaged by their young lackey, a shop assistant chasing an old woman obsessed with squeezing food, two men whose eyes meet as they are about to chow down on some spring rolls, or young Japanese girls being taught how to eat spaghetti without making a sound - the only proper way apparently - in stark contrast to the hearty slurping of ramen we are treated to throughout. Other scenes have an old woman who rises from her deathbed to cook one last meal for her family and, most notably perhaps, erotic scenes between a Yakuza and his lover (there are eggs involved).

The strength of Tompopo lies in how it moves effortlessly through the main narrative and blends it with these wonderful vignettes, all connected through a general Joie de vivre. It possesses a lightness and playfulness, while looking at serious things and serious issues, which makes it a brilliant and unique watch. Highly recommended, especially if you enjoy a bowl of ramen from time to time!

 

[moreorless87]

While I still enjoyed the movie, I completely agree. I think subtlety is a lost art. It worked when there was less content out there for the masses to literally devour. I think subtlety requires some introspection, some actual thinking that people don't have or make time for anymore. You show somebody under the age of 25 Taxi Driver and they are literally bored to tears, they don't see what's going on under the surface.

I would say what we've seen is a larger division in the public and the way films are consumed compared to say the 70's when Taxi Driver was released. Mainstream content has tended to focus mostly on blockbusters and relatively straight forward drama/comedy/etc whilst you've seen an arthouse/indie/alt/whatever market grow up, it had its roots back in that era with the likes of Cassavetes but I would say only in the past 15 years or so has it really becoming ingrained as a two tier system.

If your looking for more subtle and/or ambitious cinema there's been no lack of it over the past decade, the difference is that it hasn't had the cultural impact of something like Taxi Driver.

Honestly Phenoix has probably done more than any other actor to try and bridge that previously, stuff like Her, The Master, You Were Never Really There, etc is about as mainstream as such cinema has gotten but still I think its clear much of the public and indeed the media weren't really aware of this pre Joker.