Movies Serious Movie Discussion

I would say what we've seen is a larger division in the public and the way films are consumed compared to say the 70's when Taxi Driver was released. Mainstream content has tended to focus mostly on blockbusters and relatively straight forward drama/comedy/etc whilst you've seen an arthouse/indie/alt/whatever market grow up, it had its roots back in that era with the likes of Cassavetes but I would say only in the past 15 years or so has it really becoming ingrained as a two tier system.

If your looking for more subtle and/or ambitious cinema there's been no lack of it over the past decade, the difference is that it hasn't had the cultural impact of something like Taxi Driver.

Honestly Phenoix has probably done more than any other actor to try and bridge that previously, stuff like Her, The Master, You Were Never Really There, etc is about as mainstream as such cinema has gotten but still I think its clear much of the public and indeed the media weren't really aware of this pre Joker.

I get what your saying im just saying, in general, this younger generation if spoiled with too much content and as a result have shorter attention spans. There is ALWYS something new for them to watch so they dont watch movies over and over and learn them really well and think about them deeply like prior generations. Its much more one and done and on to the next with the yo unger crowd.
 
The Cabinet of Dr Caligari (1920)
caligari05_preview.jpeg

Absolutely outstanding expressionist thriller (or early horror, as some would have it). Whatever genre you would have it in, this is a remarkable film. Finally got round to this after a few years of meaning to, but perhaps it is fitting on the centenary of it’s release.

The first thing that catches the eye is the films incredibly striking visual style. It is a far cry from cinematic realism. Shot on painted sets, the film is a flurry of jagged angles and sharp edges. Buildings seem to leer over the characters in an oppressive, sinister fashion. Windows, doorways and other objects are bent and curved out of proportion. Even the highly stylised intertitle cards reflect this deranged aesthetic. Here the camera does not seek to capture superficially the events depicted, but through this particular style it plunges into the deepest, darkest corners of human insanity. The plot itself - about a mass-murdering sleepwalker led by the eponymous Dr. Caligari - naturally suits these stylistic tendencies. The story itself is told as a frame narrative by an unreliable narrator, and further explores these fault lines between the sane and insane, and thereby seeks to portray man’s inner-self in all it’s psychotic, tormented forms...

Of course, in several respects, it is thus reflecting the psychological trauma inflicted on German society in the aftermath of the First World War. It is simply a startlingly original piece of cinema. Can’t believe I waited as long to watch it.

Surprised you hadnt seen Caligari yet.
I own the German Restoration on Blu-Ray.
That's a phenomenal Transfer.

It's my fave Silent Era Film along with The Passion of Joan of Arc.
Still one of the most amazing visual achievements in Film History.
Check out The Hands of Orlac, that's another great one directed by Wiene
 
Surprised you hadnt seen Caligari yet.
I own the German Restoration on Blu-Ray.
That's a phenomenal Transfer.

It's my fave Silent Era Film along with The Passion of Joan of Arc.
Still one of the most amazing visual achievements in Film History.
Check out The Hands of Orlac, that's another great one directed by Wiene

I know I just kept not getting round to it. Not sure why I waited so long. I was definitely think I'd like to watch some more Wiene films so thanks for the suggestion!
 
Holy shit, @Rimbaud82, you've been watching some cool movies lately. I'd like to find some time soon for a mega post, but until I do, I'll just say that Joker was offensively bad. Forget about shit like "overrated" or "didn't live up to the hype." I'd reserve those for Avengers: Endgame, which, while weak as fuck, was at least reasonably enjoyable for its running time. Joker was just terrible in every single respect. Absolutely nothing about that movie should be spoken of in positive terms, including Joaquin Phoenix's performance, which was nothing special aside from the weight loss, and even that's not that special.

giphy.webp
 
Just saw One-Eyed Jack’s yesterday. Simply majestic. Looks stunning on bluray and the script relies a lot on great performances across the board. In hindsight worth every penny Brando blew on it. Too bad he didn’t direct again.
 
Whistle and I'll Come To You (1968)
ohzr2SU.jpg

"Who is this who is coming....."

A university professor discovers an ancient whistle during a vacation to a remote coastal village in Norfolk, blowing through it he awakens horrors beyond human understanding.

It's amazing what this film manages to do with so little. It provides a master-class in subtlety and restraint. Perhaps to some degree that is a consequence of it's television budget (being a BBC production), but the story is all the better for it.

The main theme of this chilling tale is that of intellectual arrogance and smug rationalism confronted with unearthly, incomprehensible horrors. Our main character, Professor Parkin, embodies this view of the world. He is a stuffy academic, awkward and bumbling in his old age, but completely assured of his own intellectual prowess and in the powers of reason and rationality. Yet the tension between what Parkin thinks he knows, and the dark, unnatural forces which he has unearthed and which are beyond his understanding, results in a profound psychological rupture. Whistle and I'll Come to You is both an effective ghost story and a depiction of one man's descent into madness.

Part of the film's brilliance lies in the style it employs to tell this story. It is a very subtle brand of terror, dripping with atmosphere. The absolutely incredible, unsettling sound design more than makes up for a lack of visual effects; at one point transforming what is little more than a ragged piece of cloth, into something utterly ominous and horrifying. It is just so wrong and uncanny...Simply an exceptional piece of psychological horror.
 
Last edited:
A Warning to the Curious (1972)
warning-to-the-curious-a-1972-023-digging-figure-hillside.jpg


The tale tells the story of Paxton, an amateur archeologist who travels to a remote town and inadvertently stumbles across one of the lost crowns of Anglia, which legendarily protect the county from invasion. On digging the crown up, Paxton is stalked by its supernatural guardian

Another brilliantly taut ghost story from the BBC. This one has a reasonably similar plot to Whistle and I'll Come To You, and reasonably similar themes, but then the same could be said for much of M.R. James' stories - the limitations of human knowledge and understanding, the pitfalls of intellectual vanity, the rediscovery or disturbance of old artifacts or lost knowledge, and so on, are all themes which continually appear. In this adaption it is even more pronounced as a consequence of some of the changes. Whereas in the original the young protagonist simply stumbles across the crown as a result of his intellectual curiosity, in the film he is a middle-aged amateur archaeologist who deliberately seeks it out for his own benefit. Yet we can also sympathise with his motivations in doing so. Having recently been laid off from his job as a clerk, he hoped to find this treasure both as a means of improving his position, and of attaining some level of respect from the ivory tower of academic archaeology, a world not accessible to those "without letters after their name". It is still pride and vanity which drives him, but it is coming from a relatablely human place. This arguably makes the events more tragic...

As with most of these BBC adaptions this is very much a subtle, slow-burn horror. As mentioned there are some obvious connections to drawn from Whistle and I'll Come a few years earlier, but here I think it fits more firmly with the folk horror category. There is an even greater focus on the East Anglian setting, and the anxieties that can arise from within the rural landscape itself, as well as the psychological rift between past and present, between urban modernity and a remote countryside which seems to exist outside of time. As with something like The Blood on Satan's Claw (1973) the horror is unleashed as a consequence of something being literally unearthed from the soil, from the land itself. In this film, it is a spectre who comes to exact vengeance on our 'curious' protagonist and the way in which this is presented is just perfect, full of pervading dread. Very restrained, but capable of being genuinely unsettling.
 
Last edited:
Lokis. A Manuscript of Professor Wittembach (1970)
vlcsnap2011053013h09m44.png

"There are more things in Lithuanian forests than are dreamt of in your philosophy..."

I went in to this one expecting a horror film, an expectation furthered by the rather intriguing poster art. However, this is not really horror, or not outright horror at least. If anything I'd say its a period drama, but with elements of gothic and psychological horror. Nonetheless, it is a well-crafted film, albeit with a rather austere, stately tone.

The film concerns a rather aloof German pastor who comes to this remote area of Lithuania in order to study its folklore and language (preparation for translating the bible into Samogitian, the local dialect). He stays at the house of the local count, where he soon discovers that sinister rumours abound from local peasants about his parentage. The counts mother is kept locked away, apparently driven mad by a bear attack in her youth. According to the peasants, the count is in fact the bestial offspring of this bear. As the film goes on, he displays some increasingly violent and erratic behaviour...

With this plot the film sets up a reasonably intriguing mystery which explores the blurred lines between madness and sanity and the inherent violence of human nature. It is very much grounded in the Lithuanian setting and its folklore, doing an effective job of bringing this period of history and the setting to life. Thus it also tackles the tensions inherent between Christianity and Lithuanian pagan beliefs still kept amongst the villagers, as well as between civilised modernity and pre-modern superstition in general.

My main criticism would be the pacing. Perhaps if I hadn't gone in expecting a horror my thoughts on this would be different. But for me the film moves at an overly restrained, lethargic pace. It is interesting at times as I say, but ultimately never quite boils over into something truly frightening or exciting. More of an intellectual excercise than a visceral experience. Nonetheless, it is still a reasonably good film on the whole.
 
Kwaidan (1964)
7307b3dc985d4c10df27728ac703a297.jpeg


An immaculately stylized collection of ghost stories taken from Japanese folklore and rooted in the aesthetics of Noh theatre. At three hours long it's not a brisque watch, but it is completely mesmerising. Kwaidan draws you into it's wonderful, unsettling and deeply atmospheric world through outstanding visuals, a strange avant-garde sound design, and through the sparse elegance of it's four folk tales.

The first thing to mention is really the tales themselves. After all, the style of the film would largely be irrelevant if the stories it told were dull. As it stands they are all excellent, apart from the last one perhaps, but even it is rescued by a startling ending. These are not stories which provide any psychological analysis of character, instead they are almost like stock characters. As befits great folk tales they are essentially archetypal. Thus the ghostly tales contain within them an especially potent elemental power. These are spooky stories of course, but I would fit the film as much within the folk tradition before declaring it a pure “horror” film per se. That brings different connotations of course, at least as far as what is expected from the term nowadays. Kwaidan is low on scares, but rich in atmosphere and tone. Unlike a lot of horror films, which treat the supernatural as something which disrupts the secular rationalism of the present, Kwaidan presents the world of pre-modern folklore in literal terms. It is simply a fact that ghosts and spirits exist, in the same way as trees or rivers, and they have an impact on human affairs…

Now to the style of the film, which is one of it’s equally remarkable features. Drawing on the hyper-artificiality of Noh theatre and the opulent visuals of Kabuki, the film is shot almost entirely on meticulously crafted painted sets. In this I couldn’t help but think of The Ballad of Narayama (1958) which has a very similar style. In Kwaidan, it looks absolutely stunning as well, extremely beautiful. I also think this perfectly fits the folk tales the film tells. The heightened style and self-conscious artificiality reflects the archetypal nature of folklore (as well as Noh theatre as mentioned). Everything is exaggerated in some sense as a result. For instance the seasons. It is not simply autumn, or images of trees which suggest that autumn is coming soon, but rather the production team have carefully and deliberately designed sets which suggest the very essence of the season. This is particularly apparent in the contrasts between them, especially that of the second tale - "The Woman of the Snow" (雪女, Yukionna).

Just a wonderful film, with images and stories that linger in the mind long after watching, just like a good folk story.

lAomkN9.png

d479e91db4dee2d4be208fc2621be461.jpeg

83441ff57a98042389081b2ce04140d1.jpeg

2ef0747a6225aeed96e32c03e9d01643.jpeg

VxyVWoq.png

fCWUrq5.png

iq3kzpj.png

hF4DNxV.png
 
Last edited:
Marketa Lazarová (1967)
ad2e34ae05adc0fc2bfbc2057a702ad9.jpeg


"told by chance, at random, for poetry's sake, at the behest of a wandering echo, and because even the most ancient things lie in the web of the present time..."

A spellbinding, hypnotic viewing experience. One the one hand I fell in love with the tone and aesthetic of the film almost immediately, it possesses a kind of transcendent beauty. However, as the film went on I found myself somewhat frustrated by an inability to grasp some of the particular plot points. Much seems deliberately obscure or obtuse and it is hard to understand just who all the characters are, or their precise relations to one another. Yet by the final third I was willing to just let go of any misgivings and surrender myself to the films remarkable, magical style. This is one of those films which is not watched, but rather experienced.

The plot, on the most basic level, concerns the bloody feud of three families in a medieval Bohemia torn between it’s pagan past and Christian future. Marketa is caught in the middle of this feud, kidnapped by the sons of one of the other families but eventually falling in love with him. This love story is clearly a key narrative thread, but it’s hardly focused on directly. We see the lovers together only a few times. It is simply one of many other things happening throughout the film. Everything is told in a fragmentary, episodic fashion. As mentioned this can be frustrating at times, and difficult to follow, but if you are willing to just give yourself over to the films strange qualities and stop over-thinking it becomes an enthralling watch.

With that said, although several plot points remain elusive it is easier to grasp the broader thematic content of the film. For instance the tension between central authority and the freedom represented by the clans, perhaps a connection to contemporary political circumstances when it was made. Yet I’d say the film is more grounded in the medieval mindset, or least it’s own attempt to reconstruct that. We are in the mid-thirteenth century. This is a time in which the old gods remain a potent force, but are in the midst of a losing battle against the One True God of Christendom. This conflict between paganism and Christianity is a key theme, and bleeds into the family feud. One clan who are closer to the old ways are the the Kozlíks, brutal bandits who attack travellers passing through their land. Yet no connection is drawn between violence and paganism, or between civility and christianity. In Marketa Lazarová there is also an exploration of the violence endemic to human beings and men in particular, always in conflict with the more noble aspects of their nature.

The style is extremely experimental and disorientating. The camerawork is at times highly energetic, handheld and shaky, or in constant motion in a manner which is somewhat reminiscent of Parajanov’s Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors (1965). At other moments the camera slows and pans around the characters. Andrei Rublev (1966) is of course another comparison to be made in a few respects. At points we are given dramatic wide-shots of the Bohemian landscape, while at others extreme close-ups with the faces of the characters deliberately obscured. This is all mirrored in the strange sound design. Voices are generally distorted and seem to echo in some way, they intermingle and overlap in a confusing jumble or at other times seem to be coming from another scene entirely. All of this is punctuated by the incredible, haunting score which draws from Christian liturgical music.

It is a really weird film. I feel like it’s one where some people will simply be unwilling to take the leap required and accept the confusion on screen. The opaque storyline might annoy them too much. I’d say that is a fair reaction. However, if you are willing to surrender yourself it is a brilliant experience imbued with ecstatic energy.

fd073af365598131eed0371b5f121e91.jpg
 
I feel the recent trend of female empowerment (which invariably portrays men in negative light) makes me feel like movies like Charlie's Angel, Birds of Prey, and 2016 Ghostbusters are becoming a genre of feminist exploitation films. These 3 examples have the budget of big hollywood movies, but the quality of the movies have a typical exploitation B movie feel to them.
 
based on his av for as long as I can remember @moreorless87 is a fan of this one...

Indeed and I would say its definitely something that benefits from repeat viewings given that the style is deliberately obtuse. The book it was based on was I believe written with very otuse prose and Vlacil was trying to reflect that in creating a similar cinematic experience with confusing plot structure, sound design, etc yet I do think its not merely an exersize in artful mystery, there is a pretty strong dramatic core to it when you get past that.

There does seem to be an anti authoritian thread going though it that perhaps reflects on the political situation at the time(right around the Prague Spring) but as you say I think its mostly an attempt to recreate the medieval mindset. I think in that respect its fundamentally quite different to Andrei Rublev were the lead character if not obviously anachronistic is clearly applicable to the present day and arguably semi autobiographical of the film maker. Here I think the fundamental alien nature of what were seeing ends up being played up, just how different this semi Pagan mindset actually was to the present day.

This sequence especially comes to mind(NSFW at the end)....



What is I spose more directly applicable to the present day is showing the plight of the title character, how she finds herself traded around for the gain of various male characters and then judged for falling for her kidnapper. You do also have the reverse of this though with the kidnapped Saxon noblemans son falling for the almost purely Pagan Alexandra which is argueblly showing the power women wheld in this position and her judgement on men who don't reach some ideal for her.

This does all sound very self important I spose but this is also a film were the narrating voice of god has an argument with a character and accuses him of fucking his pet sheep. <45>

What I would say as well is perhaps a better film to watch first would be Valley of the Bee's by Vladcil from the following year, somewhat similar in style but shorter and less obtuse.
 
Last edited:
Indeed and I would say its definitely something that benefits from repeat viewings given that the style is deliberately obtuse. The book it was based on was I believe written with very otuse prose and Vlacil was trying to reflect that in creating a similar cinematic experience with confusing plot structure, sound design, etc yet I do think its not merely an exersize in artful mystery, there is a pretty strong dramatic core to it when you get past that.

There does seem to be an anti authoritian thread going though it that perhaps reflects on the political situation at the time(right around the Prague Spring) but as you say I think its mostly an attempt to recreate the medieval mindset. I think in that respect its fundamentally quite different to Andrei Rublev were the lead character if not obviously anachronistic is clearly applicable to the present day and arguably semi autobiographical of the film maker. Here I think the fundamental alien nature of what were seeing ends up being played up, just how different this semi Pagan mindset actually was to the present day.

This sequence especially comes to mind(NSFW at the end)....



What is I spose more directly applicable to the present day is showing the plight of the title character, how she finds herself traded around for the gain of various male characters and then judged for falling for her kidnapper. You do also have the reverse of this though with the kidnapped Saxon noblemans son falling for the almost purely Pagan Alexandra which is less obvious in its politics.

What I would say as well is perhaps a better film to watch first would be Valley of the Bee's by Vladcil from the following year, somewhat similar in style but shorter and less obtuse.


I plan to watch to The Devil's Trap next of his films actually, I like the sound of it.
 
I'v not seen that yet, got the 4 DVD boxset(one being a documentary about the film maker) second run put out a few years of his work, The White Dove is also well regarded.

I am actually hoping Marketa's status in its home country might get it a 4k/UHD BR release, there was a 4K scan doing the rounds at festivals a few years ago I believe.
 
I'v not seen that yet, got the 4 DVD boxset(one being a documentary about the film maker) second run put out a few years of his work, The White Dove is also well regarded.

I am actually hoping Marketa's status in its home country might get it a 4k/UHD BR release, there was a 4K scan doing the rounds at festivals a few years ago I believe.

I saw a blu ray rip but yeah would love to see a proper 4K remaster.
 
@europe1 THE TIME HAS COME AT LAST

drum roll please.....

Showing at Belfast Film Festival this year.....

P98iD6u_d.jpg


:D
 
The Saragossa Manuscript (1965)
45e0c241-6059-4501-bf1a-d5059393962a_f1400x900

"I've lost the feeling of where reality ends, and fantasy takes over."

A bizarrely humorous work of meta-fiction featuring incompetent aristocrats, the Spanish Inquisition, ragged gypsys, wise hermits, one-eyed madmen, Hebrew mystics, mathematicians, evil spirits, Arab sheikhs and Islamic princesses, and more besides. Framed by the story of two officers on opposing sides of the Napoleonic wars discovering a strange manuscript providing a history of one of their ancestors (Alfons van Worden), the main narrative - if you can call it that - involves several layers of stories within stories within stories. Alfons recounts his stories in the manuscript, but within those stories there are characters with their own stories to tell, likewise within their stories there are other characters with their own stories to tell, and so on... It's an amusing tangle of tales ranging across space and time, where each story bleeds into the other in interconnected ways.

At three hours it can get a bit dense and tricky to follow, but while it drags a little bit in places it is not an especially serious film. It's light-hearted and playful, as befits this kind of dizzying meta-fiction.
 
Last edited:
In the Mouth of Madness (1994)
Header-In-The-Mouth-Of-Madness-Paper-Torn-Void-e1559228792664.jpg


I feel like this is one where the concept is arguably better than the film itself. An intriguing meta-horror which draws from the cosmic terror of H.P. Lovecraft and the work of Stephen King to comment upon the cult of the author and the mass hysteria inherent within popular culture. The film is good - anything with Sam Neill in it usually is - but I felt it could have been better. The first half or so sets up an interesting mystery, and there are some brilliant moments throughout, but much of the film kind of falls apart through the middle sections into a boring menagerie of special effects monsters and cultish townspeople. This could be my own bias against schlocky monster movies coming through however. The final 15-20 minutes bring back some good moments as Sam Neill is driven further and further into madness by what he has witnessed. The final scene is especially great...
 
@europe1 THE TIME HAS COME AT LAST

drum roll please.....

Showing at Belfast Film Festival this year.....

P98iD6u_d.jpg


:D

GET PUMPED AND HANG OUT WITH WIZARDS!!!

fataldeviation.gif

fatal%20deviation%20bad%20movie%20diaries%20main.jpg


I feel like this is one where the concept is arguably better than the film itself. An intriguing meta-horror which draws from the cosmic terror of H.P. Lovecraft and the work of Stephen King to comment upon the cult of the author and the mass hysteria inherent within popular culture. The film is good - anything with Sam Neill in it usually is - but I felt it could have been better. The first half or so sets up an interesting mystery, and there are some brilliant moments throughout, but much of the film kind of falls apart through the middle sections into a boring menagerie of special effects monsters and cultish townspeople. This could be my own bias against schlocky monster movies coming through however. The final 15-20 minutes bring back some good moments as Sam Neill is driven further and further into madness by what he has witnessed. The final scene is especially great...

I think the basic problem with In the Mouth of Madness is that it promises you incomprehensible evil and said incomprehensible evil turns out to be Jurgen Prochnow and two snarling Dobermans.

It's the classic problem of making Cosmic Horror. How do you depict something reputed to be inconceivable to man? The end-result is bound to fail to live up to that standard, meaning that any menace -- no matter how well-built it is -- will dilapidate.
 
Back
Top