Seperating fact from fiction

[theBrookDweller]

Muscular Hypertrophy = Fact
Muscular Confusion = Fiction


is this the way it works?

 

[Ghost Ape]

Why are you guys doing Zercher squats in the first place? As far as I can tell, it's something you do when you do strongman training. But otherwise I don't see the benefit of it.

 

[XTrainer]

Strongmen do them to get strong.

Strength is good for other sports, too. For real.

That said, I don't do them anymore because I'm good at them (relatively speaking), and there are numerous other lower body lifts that I need to work on a lot more.

 

[RoadKing Custom]

that's a zercher squat. zercher deadlift starts with the weight on the floor.

Thank you for the correction.. I should have noticed that/this, and didn't.

 

[KnightTemplar]

You`re allowed to insult us but we`re not allowed to reply? Who the fuck are you?

Dude, it's the fucking Internet; I'm allowed to insult you, you're allowed to reply and I'm allowed to ignore your reply. That's the beauty of it!:icon_chee

 

[Cratos]

Dude, it's the fucking Internet; I'm allowed to insult you, you're allowed to reply and I'm allowed to ignore your reply. That's the beauty of it!:icon_chee

pls go.

 

[Ghost Ape]

Strongmen do them to get strong.

Strength is good for other sports, too. For real.

That said, I don't do them anymore because I'm good at them (relatively speaking), and there are numerous other lower body lifts that I need to work on a lot more.

Can you find a video of someone doing multiple zercher squats properly? Even in the best form videos, their upper back rounds a lot and they get pulled out of position after a rep or two. You'd think they'd feel that pain, but they're probably more worried about the pain in their arms. It just seems like a lift that has little to no payoff for the non-strongman lifter.

That's not to say that strongman-type training is bad, but zercher squats/deadlifts and roundback good mornings and continental cleans etc seem more harmful than useful.

 

[KILL KILL]

Why are you guys doing Zercher squats in the first place? As far as I can tell, it's something you do when you do strongman training. But otherwise I don't see the benefit of it.

it's great for wrestlers. specifically greco guys.

 

[KnightTemplar]

pls go.

Dude, you hurt my feelings!:icon_cry2

Or you would have hurt them if I was'nt a sociopath...:icon_twis

 

[XTrainer]

Can you find a video of someone doing multiple zercher squats properly? Even in the best form videos, their upper back rounds a lot...

That's the whole point, man. A rounded back is an inherent part of the exercise. Why is this useful? Simple: Most real life/sport situations do not allow one to do everything with a pristine back arch. It makes sense to train for those situations.

Also, all you guys arguing...stoppit, k?

 

[Ghost Ape]

it's great for wrestlers. specifically greco guys.

Might be, I'm not familiar with different ways wrestlers train.

That's the whole point, man. A rounded back is an inherent part of the exercise. Why is this useful? Simple: Most real life/sport situations do not allow one to do everything with a pristine back arch. It makes sense to train for those situations.

Simply getting your deadlift up would definitely help you deal with the situations where your back won't be completely straight though. If you can pull 400lbs cleanly, then you can probably deal with weight less than that that puts you in a less than ideal back position. For the most part, I don't think Strongmen even incorporate Zerchers until they are pulling over 6 plates for reps, but my info may be off.

I don't know, I feel like I've read multiple times (from Rippetoe and other strength trainers) that Zerchers compromise form with little benefit over standard deadlifts.

Feel free to continue to do them if you like em, I'm just throwing my input out there.

EDIT: a quick search on the SS forum turned this up:

Rip:
Zercher squats are bad for people who value their backs, their elbows, and their sanity. I recommend against them.

 

[Cratos]

I wonder if any top powerlifters or strongmen do Zercher squats/DLs.

 

[KILL KILL]

Might be, I'm not familiar with different ways wrestlers train.



Simply getting your deadlift up would definitely help you deal with the situations where your back won't be completely straight though. If you can pull 400lbs cleanly, then you can probably deal with weight less than that that puts you in a less than ideal back position. For the most part, I don't think Strongmen even incorporate Zerchers until they are pulling over 6 plates for reps, but my info may be off.

I don't know, I feel like I've read multiple times (from Rippetoe and other strength trainers) that Zerchers compromise form with little benefit over standard deadlifts.

Feel free to continue to do them if you like em, I'm just throwing my input out there.

EDIT: a quick search on the SS forum turned this up:

watch all of karelin's throws. form seems very similar to a zercher deadlift doesn't it?

 

[XTrainer]

Simply getting your deadlift up would definitely help you deal with the situations where your back won't be completely straight though. If you can pull 400lbs cleanly, then you can probably deal with weight less than that that puts you in a less than ideal back position. For the most part, I don't think Strongmen even incorporate Zerchers until they are pulling over 6 plates for reps, but my info may be off.

I don't know, I feel like I've read multiple times (from Rippetoe and other strength trainers) that Zerchers compromise form with little benefit over standard deadlifts.

Feel free to continue to do them if you like em, I'm just throwing my input out there.

EDIT: a quick search on the SS forum turned this up:

I've done a strongman contest, and I've done zerchers, do I count? :icon_chee

I'm not telling anybody to train zerchers. Like I said, I don't even do them anymore--you can certainly get strong without them, and they were never a weak point for me anyway.

Having said that, there is solid rationale for using them, in that picking stuff/people up in real life often means compromising a nice back arch. So, if you're going to be in that situation anyway, you might as well prepare in such a way the allows you to incrementally increase the workload to match your level of development.

That might not be reason enough for you to incorporate them into your training, but I think it is enough to vindicate people who choose to do zerchers.

 

[Tosa]

Having said that, there is solid rationale for using them, in that picking stuff/people up in real life often means compromising a nice back arch. So, if you're going to be in that situation anyway, you might as well prepare in such a way the allows you to incrementally increase the workload to match your level of development.

First, you're assuming that picking stuff up in real lift does in fact mean compromising the back arch...there may be exceptions where that's in fact the case, but I don't think it's generally true. Both deficit deads where the bar is nearly at the feet, and atlas stones can be lifted without rounding the lumbar spine, and I don't see what I'm likely to encounter in day to day life where I'm going to have to round by lower back, under load, when I can avoid it in the above mentioned conditions.

Second, you're assuming that the ability to lift a load with a rounded lumbar spine is a trainable quality. I've never seen any evidence to suggest that this is the case, although I'd certainly be interested in seeing some if it exists. Although I do recall KW stating that well developed "core" can allow someone to ignore/function normally despite some damage to the spinal disks.

 

[D4rthKitty]

The clay thing does not shock me at all, I cannot remember who, but some American geezer who wrestled in the sixties grip is so strong apparently even in old age he can crush an apple in his hands

 

[redjako]

watch all of karelin's throws. form seems very similar to a zercher deadlift doesn't it?

:56
1:08
1:35

Though always one arm Over, vs both under.

 

[XTrainer]

First, you're assuming that picking stuff up in real lift does in fact mean compromising the back arch...there may be exceptions where that's in fact the case, but I don't think it's generally true. Both deficit deads where the bar is nearly at the feet, and atlas stones can be lifted without rounding the lumbar spine, and I don't see what I'm likely to encounter in day to day life where I'm going to have to round by lower back, under load, when I can avoid it in the above mentioned conditions.

Second, you're assuming that the ability to lift a load with a rounded lumbar spine is a trainable quality. I've never seen any evidence to suggest that this is the case, although I'd certainly be interested in seeing some if it exists. Although I do recall KW stating that well developed "core" can allow someone to ignore/function normally despite some damage to the spinal disks.

I'm very confident in the first assumption. Barbells are pretty darn unique in that you have a perfect handle in the middle, and the bulk of the load spaced out to either side...you can position yourself nicely with respect to the bar without having to worry about the load getting in the way. Have you ever tried stones? Even with a light stone, like a 200, this doesn't work.

As far as the second assumption, yes, I do believe it's trainable. And Rippetoe agrees with me on that, BTW, so there (see Starting Strength) Why would you think it is not trainable? The most fundamental assumption of physical training is that subjecting your body to a stressor stimulates an adaptation commensurate with that stressor/stimulus. I'd need a pretty darn good reason to discard this assumption for cases in which one's back isn't arched.

 

[Tosa]

I'm very confident in the first assumption. Barbells are pretty darn unique in that you have a perfect handle in the middle, and the bulk of the load spaced out to either side...you can position yourself nicely with respect to the bar without having to worry about the load getting in the way. Have you ever tried stones? Even with a light stone, like a 200, this doesn't work.

The lumbar spine is a relatively small portion of the spine. It's entirely possible for it to stay neutral during all sort of akward lifts. For example:

As far as the second assumption, yes, I do believe it's trainable. And Rippetoe agrees with me on that, BTW, so there (see Starting Strength) Why would you think it is not trainable? The most fundamental assumption of physical training is that subjecting your body to a stressor stimulates an adaptation commensurate with that stressor/stimulus. I'd need a pretty darn good reason to discard this assumption for cases in which one's back isn't arched.

Where in starting strength does it say that the ability of the lumbar spinal discs to handle uneven loads from lifting a load with a rounded lower back is a trainable quality?

Now I'm not saying that the intervertbral discs don't get stronger in response to training. But does this make them more capable of handling uneven forces? And even if the answer is yes, does training with a rounded lower back somehow train the lumbar discs better? And to the degree to make up for the significantly increased stresses such training puts on the lumbar discs?

 

[XTrainer]

The lumbar spine is a relatively small portion of the spine. It's entirely possible for it to stay neutral during all sort of akward lifts. For example:

First of all, that stone is obviously very light for him. He can pick it up with completely straight legs and doesn't need to drop much to get under it. We see it all the time when people post form critique videos: They're able to maintain a particular form point at light weights, but as the weight increases, they can't. I'd like to see what he looks like when lifting some heavier, and perhaps as importantly, bigger stones. For a 383 to look like that, I can only imagine that this guy must be massive (and crazy strong).

Second, watch what happens throughout the course of the video. You're right, the rounding never gets too bad, but there is a definite increase. You can see where things are going. Which is why I think a more demanding stone (relatively speaking) would be more telling...

YouTube - Derek Poundstone 1st attempt at the 555lb atlas stone
YouTube - Derek Poundstone loads the 555lb Stone 46.25 inches
Poundstone doesn't have the luxury of being able to do a perfect SLDL on the stone, and he has to get way down just to lap it. Naturally, there's rounding both on the initial pick up, and the lift--load.

Where in starting strength does it say that the ability of the lumbar spinal discs to handle uneven loads from lifting a load with a rounded lower back is a trainable quality?

Now I'm not saying that the intervertbral discs don't get stronger in response to training. But does this make them more capable of handling uneven forces? And even if the answer is yes, does training with a rounded lower back somehow train the lumbar discs better? And to the degree to make up for the significantly increased stresses such training puts on the lumbar discs?

It certainly does not get into the specificity you are asking for. But it does address the utility of rounded back training (check the assistance exercise section), which is what I was pointing out.