Crime Salman rushdie attacked on stage

[AristotleAmadopolis]

Don't Christians believe in David and Solomon? They were murderers by your definition too. Yet they were followers of God according to Christians. Make it make sense lol.

i’m talking about the two main guys. The founders. One is a killer and the other is not. Both claim to represent the same god.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

Don't Christians believe in David and Solomon? They were murderers by your definition too. Yet they were followers of God according to Christians. Make it make sense lol.

well both of those figures for christianity form an important but imperfect example of human being in relationship to god. same with most old testament figures including moses (for christians at leaste) heck even two of jesus's disciples offered to call down fire and burn people for jesus.

but nobody in christianity is offering any of these figures up as perfect men, the ideal for all of humanity for all time.


but also i want in no way to make this a christianity vs islam contribution. im not interested in that conversation.

 

[moosaev]

well both of those figures for christianity form an important but imperfect example of human being in relationship to god. same with most old testament figures including moses (for christians at leaste) heck even two of jesus's disciples offered to call down fire and burn people for jesus.

but nobody in christianity is offering any of these figures up as perfect men, the ideal for all of humanity for all time.


but also i want in no way to make this a christianity vs islam contribution. im not interested in that conversation.

Well Christian’s think Jesus was some kind of quasi God, so i fail to see what the comparison is. Either way, the guy isn’t understanding a very simple concept, Jesus didn’t kill anyone because he was never responsible for running a state. It’s as simple as that.

 

[moosaev]

You accused all white people in the US of something much worse by claiming they are overrepresented in hate crimes without substantiating it. Then you go in other threads and complain about how people are demonizing Muslims unfairly. Might be a good time to look in the mirror because right now you come across as a huge hypocrite.

Quote what I said, I said If anything it’s *more likely* they they’d be overrepresented, that’s not a definitive claim. And it was in response to you using crime stats of blacks as some kind of rationale for perpetrators of hate crimes when the two have nothing to do with each other. Stop twisting my words.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

Well Christian’s think Jesus was some kind of quasi God, so i fail to see what the comparison is. Either way, the guy isn’t understanding a very simple concept, Jesus didn’t kill anyone because he was never responsible for running a state. It’s as simple as that.

you have failed to address my post entirely. obviously im not trying to compare jesus. did you read my post?

 

[moosaev]

you have failed to address my post entirely. obviously im not trying to compare jesus. did you read my post?

I’ve already addressed your point. Your concept of perfection includes pacifism as a necessary element, mind doesn’t. That’s all there is to it.

 

[TryggeTryggvar]

Jesus didn’t kill anyone because he was never responsible for running a state. It’s as simple as that.

For one is is able to post lengthy posts about how intricate religion is, this is beneath you imo. Nothing in religion is "as simple as that".

 

[Deleted member 577981]

I’ve already addressed your point. Your concept of perfection includes pacifism as a necessary element, mind doesn’t. That’s all there is to it.

thats NOT the point at all.

you wanted it to make sense that someone could criticize mohamed, a man held up as the ideal for all humanity for all time for murdering two people and having sex with an 8 year old girl, and not give the same criticism for moses or david on the murder front. i made the point that no christian holds moses or david up as the ideal example for all time as some muslims do for mohamed so their actions are not equatable. it is also true that moses and david are used as examples of sinful imperfect people making terrible mistakes in the christian tradition. they are not apologized for and held up as perfect examples.

you then lost the narrative completely and started having a different conversation for some reason.

 

[moosaev]

For one is is able to post lengthy posts about how intricate religion is, this is beneath you imo. Nothing in religion is "as simple as that".

It really is that simple, people want to compare Jesus to Mohammed but they had very different responsibilities and experiences. Jesus is the central figure of one major religion, Mohammed is a central figure of another major religion, therefore some people think we can do a direct 1:1 comparison. We call this “reasoning by analogy”. It’s very flawed and simplistic thinking.

 

[moosaev]

thats NOT the point at all.

you wanted it to make sense that someone could criticize mohamed, a man held up as the ideal for all humanity for all time for murdering two people and having sex with an 8 year old girl, and not give the same criticism for moses or david on the murder front. i made the point that no christian holds moses or david up as the ideal example for all time as some muslims do for mohamed so their actions are not equatable. it is also true that moses and david are used as examples of sinful imperfect people making terrible mistakes in the christian tradition. they are not apologized for and held up as perfect examples.

you then lost the narrative completely and started having a different conversation for some reason.

You’re playing a gotcha game. The comparison to David and Moses isn’t my central point. I explained why I don’t think killing 2 people negates the idea that someone can still be the perfect example of a man. The having sex with a 9 yr old i don’t think that’s accurate, there is dispute about the age of consummation but it’s likely much older than 9. And back then norms for age of consent were different.

 

[TryggeTryggvar]

It really is that simple, people want to compare Jesus to Mohammed but they had very different responsibilities and experiences. Jesus is the central figure of one major religion, Mohammed is a central figure of another major religion, therefore some people think we can do a direct 1:1 comparison. We call this “reasoning by analogy”. It’s very flawed and simplistic thinking.

You can compare them, and who said anything about a 1:1 comparison? Its all about the message innit, not the person?

 

[Deleted member 577981]

You’re playing a gotcha game. The comparison to David and Moses isn’t my central point. I explained why I don’t think killing 2 people negates the idea that someone can still be the perfect example of a man. The having sex with a 9 yr old i don’t think that’s accurate, there is dispute about the age of consummation but it’s likely much older than 9. And back then norms for age of consent were different.

i am NOT playing a gotcha game. you asked for someone to make it make sense. you literally asked for my response.

i have answered you in a perfectly reasonable way with only facts. im not even trying to argue against your position on mohamed. we have established that we disagree and i am content to leave it at that. you wanted to know the other sides reasoning on why the "ideal man" gets a pass but david or solomon dont. i explained that to you because you asked.

i gave you a good faith response to your request and you are not responding in good faith friend. i am NOT coming after mohamed here. im not interested in that conversation. im explaining that davids and other old testament figures murders are held up as examples of SIN... not virtue.

 

[moosaev]

You can compare them, and who said anything about a 1:1 comparison? Its all about the message innit, not the person?

Read the thread, the context here is some posters are comparing Jesus to Mohammed as people, i.e. Jesus never killed anyone but Mohammed did, that proves one was good and the other wasn’t. Nonsense. They had different lives, different responsibilities and different challenges, all their actions can’t be directly compared.

 

[moosaev]

i am NOT playing a gotcha game. you asked for someone to make it make sense. you literally asked for my response.

i have answered you in a perfectly reasonable way with only facts. im not even trying to argue against your position on mohamed. we have established that we disagree and i am content to leave it at that. you wanted to know the other sides reasoning on why the "ideal man" gets a pass but david or solomon dont. i explained that to you because you asked.

i gave you a good faith response to your request and you are not responding in good faith friend. i am NOT coming after mohamed here. im not interested in that conversation. im explaining that davids and other old testament figures murders are held up as examples of SIN... not virtue.

Then it’s a misunderstanding, because in Islamic theology David and Solomon are also considered perfect human beings.

 

[Islam Imamate]

this is a tricky one and honestly man it makes me a little uncomfortable. which mohamed do you sign onto out of curiosity? the man who was imperfect but still a prophet or the ideal man? and i hope i have not misremembered that you are a muslim (and an ally to me btw for lots of reasons).

Yes I am Muslim and yes that's the canonical view of him and as a pretty standard Sunni Muslim I accept it. The Aisha thing doesn't bother me anymore for the reasons I have stated.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

Then it’s a misunderstanding, because in Islamic theology David and Solomon are also considered perfect human beings.

ok. that makes perfect sense!!

yeah in christianity and judaism they are taught as examples of how god can and does use sinful people even though that does not excuse the sin. this notion is a massive part of many christians understanding of how god works in history.


i have to ask about david though. in the old testament he spied a married woman on a rooftop naked and bathing and felt lust for her so he found out her husband was one of his generals so he ordered the general into battle and had his supporting men draw back so the general would be killed. i basically wear his story on my forehead as an example of how easy it is to destroy everything good in life as a man due to simple lust.

is that the same david/story you guys say was perfect?

 

[Deleted member 577981]

Yes I am Muslim and yes that's the canonical view of him and as a pretty standard Sunni Muslim I accept it. The Aisha thing doesn't bother me anymore for the reasons I have stated.

ok thanks man.

i have ZERO interest in disparaging your religion man. i mean ZERO. you have always been deeply supportive of many religious posts of mine...... i want to offer you the same love and support.


im reading a book about dialogue between catholicism and islam buddhism and hinduism. its from a genius level theologian who is very liberal. he presents mohammed in a VERY positive light.

 

[TryggeTryggvar]

Read the thread, the context here is some posters are comparing Jesus to Mohammed as people, i.e. Jesus never killed anyone but Mohammed did, that proves one was good and the other wasn’t. Nonsense. They had different lives, different responsibilities and different challenges, all their actions can’t be directly compared.

Again, my point is that its not so simple. What other posters say you have to take up with them.

Nothing is as simple as you make it out with jesus vs mohammed. No one is arguing that they had identical lives, so I dunno why you even bring it up. Like I said, they both put forth a message, and those can be compared.

 

[moosaev]

Again, my point is that its not so simple. What other posters say you have to take up with them.

Nothing is as simple as you make it out with jesus vs mohammed. No one is arguing that they had identical lives, so I dunno why you even bring it up. Like I said, they both put forth a message, and those can be compared.

We're talking about completely different things bro, i never said the messages can't be compared. You air dropped into an ongoing conversation and changed the topic lol.

 

[TryggeTryggvar]

We're talking about completely different things bro, i never said the messages can't be compared. You air dropped into an ongoing conversation and changed the topic lol.

Not really, but if it makes you feel better....