Crime Salman rushdie attacked on stage

[Deleted member 577981]

No i;m not, thats why i said slavery is discouraged in Islam. I don't know how you figured i was promoting it.

Just sounded like it to me. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

It's not endorsed in the Koran. Slavery is not a good thing in Islam, it's discouraged.

Can you say unequivocally as a Muslim that you condemn slavery in all of its forms and would never support it in any way under any circumstances?

This is not meant to be a gotcha question I just want to know the brass tacs of where you fall and in a way I'm trying to see where Islam falls on this issue.

And I'm thinking about Sadia Arabia right now and how they seem to think slavery is okay and they are using slavery to build their cities and it's detestable and I'm wondering if you think that is absolutely unacceptable and wrong in every way?

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/10/slavery-persists-in-saudi-arabia

 

[SandisLL]

i have no idea what you are talking about or getting at here.

Ofc and you never will get.
Because you don't have any intent to understand any bare thing about chrisitanity.
Also....don't play game with me. I know that my post you had quoted is written in understable english.

I simply don't have any intent to waste time with christianity haters here.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

You would do far better to stick to the Perrenial view. Sufis were unsurprisingly persecuted by mainstream Muslims throughout history, it is the least mystical and enlightened of the religions.


Where the Bible has an advantage is that large parts of the old Testament can be discounted as historic context and the new Testament taken as the Christian teaching proper.

In Muhammadism the entire koran is taken as gods word which is laughable.

Notice how not a single Muhamadeen here attempted to deny they would reinstate human slavery if they had a choice, so as to be consistent with Koran.

If he is real it is surely Gods will that Muhammadeens are now the global subordinate (Dhimmi) of the non-muslim world, and being rightly put in their place everywhere.

i have no idea what you are getting at here.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

Ofc and you never will get.
Because you don't have any intent to understand any bare thing about chrisitanity.
Also....don't play game with me. I know that my post you had quoted is written in understable english.

I simply don't have any intent to waste time with christianity haters here.

i did not mean to quote you with that response.

but i just read your post to me and i dont quite understand it. im not trying to be a dick here man. also i am very christian so we are definitely having an unfortunate misunderstanding.

 

[KeithHackneyballpunch]

Can you say unequivocally as a Muslim that you condemn slavery in all of its forms and would never support it in any way under any circumstances?

This is not meant to be a gotcha question I just want to know the brass tacs of where you fall and in a way I'm trying to see where Islam falls on this issue.

And I'm thinking about Sadia Arabia right now and how they seem to think slavery is okay and they are using slavery to build their cities and it's detestable and I'm wondering if you think that is absolutely unacceptable and wrong in every way?

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/10/slavery-persists-in-saudi-arabia

I would also include the UAE. How they are treating Filipino “workers “ is abhorrent

 

[Bald1]

I would also include the UAE. How they are treating Filipino “workers “ is abhorrent

It is in effect slavery. When SA finally passed a law a few years ago that employees couldn't take foreign workers passports there was some pushback and definitely outrage.

Jesus didn't keep slaves and preached non judgement. Equal rights and abolishon movements were started in Christian countries by Christians.

Mo was a slaver and a warlord. The only places in the world where there's still overt slavery is Muslim countries. Mauritania and SA being the last countries to pass anti slavery laws (1960s and 1980s) but there's still in fact true slavery in both countries. The word slave comes from Muslims harvesting slaves from Europe. Then neutering the men and keeping women as concubines.

The example set by founders and leaders of ideologies matter. There's no debating this. And when a person is considered perfect then it means their actions are beyond questioning.

It's sad that most Christians aren't very Christ like, but a blessing most Muslims are nothing like Mohamed.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

It is in effect slavery. When SA finally passed a law a few years ago that employees couldn't take foreign workers passports there was some pushback and definitely outrage.

Jesus didn't keep slaves and preached non judgement. Equal rights and abolishon movements were started in Christian countries by Christians.

Mo was a slaver and a warlord. The only places in the world where there's still overt slavery is Muslim countries. Mauritania and SA being the last countries to pass anti slavery laws (1960s and 1980s) but there's still in fact true slavery in both countries. The word slave comes from Muslims harvesting slaves from Europe. Then neutering the men and keeping women as concubines.

The example set by founders and leaders of ideologies matter. There's no debating this. And when a person is considered perfect then it means their actions are beyond questioning.

It's sad that most Christians aren't very Christ like, but a blessing most Muslims are nothing like Mohamed.

the book i am reading about islam states that islam is going to have to go through an overhaul and stop seeing the quran as the perfect word of god and start taking a historical perspective on the whole work and open it to literary criticism in the same way that the old and new testament have been opened to literary and historical criticism. only in that way can they be freed from a literal interpretation of their scriptures. islam could survive and thrive this overhaul the book states but it has not presently undergone such an overhaul.

historical and literary criticism will decimate and disprove any notion of a literal authorship by god and free muslims from the bondage to the quran that this false view creates.

 

[Bald1]

the book i am reading about islam states that islam is going to have to go through an overhaul and stop seeing the quran as the perfect word of god and start taking a historical perspective on the whole work and open it to literary criticism in the same way that the old and new testament have been opened to literary and historical criticism. only in that way can they be freed from a literal interpretation of their scriptures. islam could survive and thrive this overhaul the book states but it has not presently undergone such an overhaul.

historical and literary criticism with decimate and disprove any notion of a literal authorship by god and free muslims from the bondage to the quran that this false view states.

- Face towards the east and pray 5 times a day
- For one month of the year you can't eat during daylight
- It is your duty as Muslim to go to mecca
- The Quran is the literal word of god and beyond reproach
- Mohammed was perfect so beyond reproach
- Apostasy is illegal

These aren't suggestions or relics that are superceded by new works like the old testament is. These are written in stone unalterable rules.

There's self policing within Islam unlike anything we've seen anywhere. I've talked to a few uk Muslims and they're aware of problems but are held hostage by the extremist factions within their religion. Reformist Muslims are seen as not Muslims by these extremists, so what next?

Well, for starters, ignorant people have to wrap their heads around the fact that Islam isn't just like any other religion. It governs everything from dress codes, finance, legal disputes, and just about everything else you can think of. Islam is life to many of it's followers so all considerations take a back seat to the religion to those fundamentalists. That includes their humanity.

Change has to come from within, but the specific lunatics I'm talking about are actually more likely to kill their fellow Muslims than the non believers for asking too many questions or trying to implement changes. So would you want to be the first Muslim to try to drag this bronze age religion into the 21st century?

European enlightenment and reformation didn't come about easily or without bloodshed either, but at least there was scriptural basis for some of the movement.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

- Face towards the east and pray 5 times a day
- For one month of the year you can't eat during daylight
- It is your duty as Muslim to go to mecca
- The Quran is the literal word of god and beyond reproach
- Mohammed was perfect so beyond reproach
- Apostasy is illegal

These aren't suggestions or relics that are superceded by new works like the old testament is. These are written in stone unalterable rules.

There's self policing within Islam unlike anything we've seen anywhere. I've talked to a few uk Muslims and they're aware of problems but are held hostage by the extremist factions within their religion. Reformist Muslims are seen as not Muslims by these extremists, so what next?

Well, for starters, ignorant people have to wrap their heads around the fact that Islam isn't just like any other religion. It governs everything from dress codes, finance, legal disputes, and just about everything else you can think of. Islam is life to many of it's followers so all considerations take a back seat to the religion to those fundamentalists. That includes their humanity.

Change has to come from within, but the specific lunatics I'm talking about are actually more likely to kill their fellow Muslims than the non believers for asking too many questions or trying to implement changes. So would you want to be the first Muslim to try to drag this bronze age religion into the 21st century?

European enlightenment and reformation didn't come about easily or without bloodshed either, but at least there was scriptural basis for some of the movement.

I see the difficulties but I don't think it'll be all that difficult once they get past the fear. I mean once it breaks, once you get a country that's Muslim to go progressive or once it takes root in the intellectual community, once it happens there will be no problem reconciling their scriptures with a new way of living is all I'm saying.

But I do see your point because with Christianity there were doubts about its perfect literal translations all along even from the very beginning. So there was room and wiggle room for honest sincere Christians to say hey I don't believe this was meant to be taken literally whereas with the Quran it's not the case.

Mormons have the same problem. They believe that Joseph Smith literally wrote or was dictated the writing of the book of Mormon by God. That's a big problem for them because most of that book never happened and there's just no way for it to survive historical criticism literary criticism or archeology. But their biggest hurdle will be the same... they have said the book was dictated by God and they'll have to walk that back to make any progress.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

@Bald1

I am lucky that I was brought into Christianity under this more enlightened understanding so it's never been a hurdle for me. And the magical miracle of God dictating things directly has been replaced by a much more powerful miracle which is God slowly enlightening humanity within them and working with them and in and through history and through imperfect people and that in the end seems like a greater mystery and a greater wonder and a greater miracle than magical dictation.

 

[TheMaster]

i have no idea what you are getting at here.

I don't mean to change the discussion just that you mentioned coming to Christianity from a mystcial interest and an interest in Sufism.

I was pointing out that things like the Perennial philosophy attempt to reconcile different traditions and that within the Islamic tradition Suffism comes the closest to being an enlightening path but that's inspite of, not because of mainstream Islam and it has little really to do with the Koran and they have faced persecution for it throughout.

Islam ranks by far the lowest of the religions by most every metric from enlightening values and universal ethics to historic legitimacy ( eg Mecca wasn't even a major city as claimed at the time of Muhammad with no other contemporary historic references).

Can you say unequivocally as a Muslim that you condemn slavery in all of its forms and would never support it in any way under any circumstances?

This is not meant to be a gotcha question I just want to know the brass tacs of where you fall and in a way I'm trying to see where Islam falls on this issue.

And I'm thinking about Sadia Arabia right now and how they seem to think slavery is okay and they are using slavery to build their cities and it's detestable and I'm wondering if you think that is absolutely unacceptable and wrong in every way?

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/10/slavery-persists-in-saudi-arabia

It's not a 'gotcha' question, but seriously why are we allowing people amongst us to just continue on their way and blindly building worship houses for them who believe in any form of slavery today?

Even the most extreme racist right wing KKK members don't overtly endorse slavery and yet we have here a huge group of people who I can guarantee will squirm and hesitate to denounce slavery because Muhammad practiced it.

But no, we are too polite to call it out and it is 'againt our values of tolerance, to speak against a long established cult that tacitly endorses forms of slavery, overtly makes death threats against its own members (which is largely why the cult is numerically big) and others for speaking against them, and rules that all non-members are unworthy of the same rights'.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

I don't mean to change the discussion just that you mentioned coming to Christianity from a mystcial interest and an interest in Sufism.

I was pointing out that things like the Perennial philosophy attempt to reconcile different traditions and that within the Islamic tradition Suffism comes the closest to being an enlightening path but that's inspite of, not because of mainstream Islam and it has little really to do with the Koran and they have faced persecution for it throughout.

Islam ranks by far the lowest of the religions by most every metric from enlightening values and universal ethics to historic legitimacy ( eg Mecca wasn't even a major city as claimed at the time of Muhammad with no other contemporary historic references).


It's not a 'gotcha' question, but seriously why are we allowing people amongst us to just continue on their way and blindly building worship houses for them who believe in any form of slavery today?

Even the most extreme racist right wing KKK members don't overtly endorse slavery and yet we have here a huge group of people who I can guarantee will squirm and hesitate to denounce slavery because of that god-forsaken book saying Muhammad practiced it.

But no, we are too polite to call it out and it is 'againt our values of tolerance, to speak against a long established cult that tacitly endorses forms of slavery, overtly makes death threats against its own members (which is largely why the cult is numerically big) and others for speaking against them, and rules that all non-members are unworthy of the same rights'.

two things.

i began and was raised in the perennial philosophy but found it wanting and also i think you have to blur many important differences and overlook many and force many square pegs into round holes to hold to it. i don't have any negative energy towards it or anything like that but could not hold to it and remain intellectually honest with myself or even honest about my own mystical experience over time.

on islam i see and hear what you are saying but find your approach to be overly negative and you even seem filled with hatred often enough for it to be a real turn off to your cause. you make a lot of decent points but the emotion behind it is off putting for me. i prefer a much kinder echumenical approach to the topic of world religions.

im reading a book right now called christianity and the world religions by hans kung and in this book he deals with potential dialogue avenues with islam hinduism and buddhism. i feel like i am getting really good information about islam but without any overly negative tone.

everything that is wrong with islam is easy to fix with the introduction of historical and literary criticism and i see no real problems for muslims were they to take these steps that christianity has already taken. im not saying when it will happen but it seems likely that it will. islam is already a beautiful flower in the field and will be more beautiful once it undergoes an intellectual enlightenment.

edit-- and this is coming from an orthodox christian who should have every reason to decry mohammed's take on jesus and all of the prophets.

 

[eighterumg5]

You know the majority of people who claim to be Christian, do in fact interpret the Bible literally, and do believe it to be 'the word of god'?

Which notion?

Can't stand that shit

 

[TheMaster]

everything that is wrong with islam is easy to fix with the introduction of historical and literary criticism and i see no real problems for muslims were they to take these steps that christianity has already taken. im not saying when it will happen but it seems likely that it will. islam is already a beautiful flower in the field and will be more beautiful once it undergoes an intellectual enlightenment.

You are right about sometimes falling into hatred, it's something which isn't good for me but Islam just triggers too many buttons with the behaviour, injustices and barbarism, double standards and overt threats and history of slaughter that I find it hard not to have hatred.

The best I can do now is try to see Muslims as victims of Islam and certainly not hate them, but rather to hate Islam/Muhamaddism and Muhammad himself.

Where the hell does the 'Islam is already a beautiful flower' fantasy come from though?

A flower that has the blood of maybe 400 million deaths on its hands over history and more to this day?
Flower of death.

I understand the desire for optimism but Islam is different.
It can't be reformed because Islam is simply Muhammadism, following his example and he was a sick, evil, murderous degenerate of a human being.

This is the fundamental difference with Christianity so while I see you hope for a similar reform, it won't happen.
Why is it you calling for such a reform anyway, we don't hear the Muhamadeens themselves calling for it, we only hear them making excuses for Muhammad's philia, slave trading, murder and rape.

Sitting idly by doesn't work and will be exploited. Look what's happened already to once beautiful Sweden.



As one of the comments said very clearly:

"The root of the problem is that Sweden, mistakenly opened its doors to a sudden wave of migrants from a tribal, misogynist, intolerant and violent culture (Islamic). Democracy, religious tolerance, sexual equality, and freedom of expression are truly foreign concepts to many of these newcomers".

Make no mistake, it's a cultural and idealistic battle to them. Islam has been defeated on the physical battlefield with no hope ever of victory. There is an agenda now to exploit the weakness and openess of democratic societies to infect them with this sickness and it can't be allowed to happen.

 

[Bald1]

"TheMaster, post: 169003035, member:
The best I can do now is try to see Muslims as victims of Islam and certainly not hate them, but rather to hate Islam/Muhamaddism and Muhammad himself.


A

"The root of the problem is that Sweden, mistakenly opened its doors to a sudden wave of migrants from a tribal, misogynist, intolerant and violent culture (Islamic). Democracy, religious tolerance, sexual equality, and freedom of expression are truly foreign concepts to many of these newcomers".

Make no mistake, it's a cultural and idealistic battle to them. Islam has been defeated on the physical battlefield with no hope ever of victory. There is an agenda now to exploit the weakness and openess of democratic societies to infect them with this sickness and it can't be allowed to happen.

Yup and yup.

Leaders are supposed to lead by example, right? The question is how do we separate the tolerant Muslims from the intolerant ones? Especially when decent Muslims cow down to their totalitarian brethren. Anyone familiar with them know this is the case, Muslims who want to live in free societies know this is the case. Yet we have ignorant folks preferring to stick their heads in the sand.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

You are right about sometimes falling into hatred, it's something which isn't good for me but Islam just triggers too many buttons with the behaviour, injustices and barbarism, double standards and overt threats and history of slaughter that I find it hard not to have hatred.

The best I can do now is try to see Muslims as victims of Islam and certainly not hate them, but rather to hate Islam/Muhamaddism and Muhammad himself.

Where the hell does the 'Islam is already a beautiful flower' fantasy come from though?

A flower that has the blood of maybe 400 million deaths on its hands over history and more to this day?
Flower of death.

I understand the desire for optimism but Islam is different.
It can't be reformed because Islam is simply Muhammadism, following his example and he was a sick, evil, murderous degenerate of a human being.

This is the fundamental difference with Christianity so while I see you hope for a similar reform, it won't happen.
Why is it you calling for such a reform anyway, we don't hear the Muhamadeens themselves calling for it, we only hear them making excuses for Muhammad's philia, slave trading, murder and rape.

Sitting idly by doesn't work and will be exploited. Look what's happened already to once beautiful Sweden.



As one of the comments said very clearly:

"The root of the problem is that Sweden, mistakenly opened its doors to a sudden wave of migrants from a tribal, misogynist, intolerant and violent culture (Islamic). Democracy, religious tolerance, sexual equality, and freedom of expression are truly foreign concepts to many of these newcomers".

Make no mistake, it's a cultural and idealistic battle to them. Islam has been defeated on the physical battlefield with no hope ever of victory. There is an agenda now to exploit the weakness and openness of democratic societies to infect them with this sickness and it can't be allowed to happen.

the book im reading references quite a few muslim scholars and their works calling for the reform of islam. i have not read them yet but may do so in the future. the problem is that even if you had a large percentage of people willing to reform they would not dare speak up within their own countries for obvious reasons.

ive met so many deeply good human beings who are muslim and who have true love in their hearts along with the sufi branch that i briefly studied with and even though theologically i cannot accept their positions or the accuracy of their positions there is still beauty in the world because of them.

the heart of the solution is historical criticism. if/when the quran is opened to scholarly criticism they will be able to decidedly prove many things.... first an evolution of thought on the part of the quran and mohamed, a historical context and influence that would not be there were the book dictated by almighty god and also errors that exist in a book that ought to be perfect if it was dictated by god. from there it will be easy to redefine mohamed's holiness in a historical context and limit it below the level of him being a perfect being. again christianity has already gone through such a change and to its benefit i think. there is a model to follow there.

once this is accepted, and it would have to be once scholars got ahold of it, then it would be quite easy to decouple people from a literalist view of the quran itself. from there any number of reforms are possible.

maybe you are right and it will never happen but that just seems impossible for me to believe. and maybe the quran will not be able to withstand scholarly criticism in the way the new testament did. i really don't know.

 

[Bald1]

the book im reading references quite a few muslim scholars and their works calling for the reform of islam. i have not read them yet but may do so in the future. the problem is that even if you had a large percentage of people willing to reform they would not dare speak up within their own countries for obvious reasons.

ive met so many deeply good human beings who are muslim and who have true love in their hearts along with the sufi branch that i briefly studied with and even though theologically i cannot accept their positions or the accuracy of their positions there is still beauty in the world because of them.

the heart of the solution is historical criticism. if/when the quran is opened to scholarly criticism they will be able to decidedly prove many things.... first an evolution of thought on the part of the quran and mohamed, a historical context and influence that would not be there were the book dictated by almighty god and also errors that exist in a book that ought to be perfect if it was dictated by god. from there it will be easy to redefine mohamed's holiness in a historical context and limit it below the level of him being a perfect being. again christianity has already gone through such a change and to its benefit i think. there is a model to follow there.

once this is accepted, and it would have to be once scholars got ahold of it, then it would be quite easy to decouple people from a literalist view of the quran itself. from there any number of reforms are possible.

maybe you are right and it will never happen but that just seems impossible for me to believe. and maybe the quran will not be able to withstand scholarly criticism in the way the new testament did. i really don't know.

It could happen, but we have a part to play.in making it happen. We have to stop funding the house of Saud to lessen their ability to promote wahabism world wide.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

It could happen, but we have a part to play.in making it happen. We have to stop funding the house of Saud to lessen their ability to promote wahabism world wide.

100% with you on that we don't need to be funding them at all. It's immoral the way we cuddle up to them.

 

[Bald1]

100% with you on that we don't need to be funding them at all. It's immoral the way we cuddle up to them.

Them and China.

We claim to be better, at least as far as human rights are concerned, yet we're in bed with devils. Our support for either regimes makes no sense from any perspective except for lining pockets of big money that knows no borders and has no respect for humanity.