Ryan Hall fried my brain

[Kenny from MD]

Kenny - you train at 50/50 so can you give us some insights?

It would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance

I've posted in the last couple threads on the same topic, but luckily I am bored as hell in Brazil and we just got Wifi tonight, so I can rant in bed.

Everyone is entirely over complicating the interview and trying to infer way too much. Basically the important points have been mentioned in this thread already. He is speaking in generalities and everyone takes them literally. For example in saying I think in the future the guard will be obsolete, people interpreted it as in the future, no one will ever play guard or be successful with guard ever, in any case whatsoever. If that is the conclusion you drew from the interview, well, then you are dumb.

There are positions that offer mechanical advantages, and he believes in the future as the sport evolves and people get better, it will be more vital to make full use of those advantages. This is no different than if someone said in the 90's, "in the future you will need to follow a serious strength and conditioning training program to win the Mundial." And it's true. In today's Mundial, the more of an athlete you are, the more of an advantage you have going in. And every year that goes by, it becomes more important. That's not a very complex idea, it is common sense... take every advantage you have going into competition. But Sherdog would have interpreted that as "NO ONE WILL EVER WIN MUNDIALS WITHOUT RUNNING 10 MILES A DAY AND PUTTING UP BIG WEIGHT, EVER."

The two main points of contention in this thread are
1) Being on top is not a mechanical advantage
2) Ryan still pulls guard, so he is a hypocrite and thus everything he said in the interview is negated

1) I don't want to go too far into this because I can't adequately explain it. I am still learning and don't want the responsibility of putting words into Ryan's mouth who is a lot smarter and more articulate than I. But it absolutely is a better position THEORETICALLY. The problem with explaining things theoretically is that it assumes the variables are absolutely equal- essentially, a perfect match between two perfect fighters.** Obviously, this is not the case when it comes to people, especially at this stage of jiu jitsu. However, speaking theoretically, being on top offers you more mobility, and the ability to use your base as a driving force to manipulate pressure, leverage, etc. Basically, it takes less effort from a person to use the things that make jiu jitsu work. These are constant concepts being taught at Fifty/50.

**This also serves to discredit Redaxe's post in response to who wins when both players have a perfect match. If the match was actually perfect, the bottom man would have scored no advantages. The fact that the bottom man is able to score is more of an indication that the top man is in incorrect position, and therefore is able to have his base manipulated. This relates back to Ryan's interview as well.

2) This is how stupid people argue. They look for a "loophole" that they think will entirely collapse an argument, despite it being largely irrelevant. Using matches as evidence against his point holds no weight, as we saw earlier in the post when the real reason was revealed as to why he did not stand with Hermes. Sometimes, everything is not black and white, and there are other influences affecting a situation. Only an internet message board would need that pointed out. It also largely ignores the many matches where Ryan is wrestling (for example the super fight against Wilson Reis) or finishing from the top position (GQ against Wesley Gann) or even completely allowing an opponent to pull guard on him (super fight against Rudy Fischmann). Honestly, it really bums me out that this actually has to be explain. Ryan is not a wrestler. He realizes it's importance, and is training in wrestling, and improving rapidly. THIS DOES NOT COME OVERNIGHT. Should he stand in every situation and cost himself matches just to substantiate the points he made in his interview to a bunch of dullards that can't understand or follow context? Abandoning skill sets that he has put years of work into making successful, to prove a theoretical point is nonsensical, and if you are reading this and are one of the many, MANY internet critics that have used this point as an attack against his argument please put a trash can over your head and let me hit you with a bat because you are stupid and deserve it. All in all, I think his points about Marcelo Garcia's use of guard pretty much cover this area, so if you don't get it yet, go listen to that again.

EDIT: One more point I'd like to bring up... These kind of discussions are difficult to have without them being derailed and taken off topic, or argued in circles. The reason for that is because there is always some idiot that has to put in his two cents, without having a) educated themselves about the source of the discussion b) kept up with discussion at hand. So if you are going to say something, please make sure you have listened to the interview and read the thread so you aren't "that guy" that just randomly spouts of something he thinks is a legit point that has already been covered time and time again. That guy is the worst.

 

[Drew Foster]

from what i got is that ryan wants to play top game more and not rely on pulling guard.

but now it seems when he goes against top guys you will see him going to play guard/butt scoot and he will still play inverted guard
-watch him against hermes franca a few months ago.

but i believe that ryan wants to get to the point where he gets top position instead of going to guard.

but that is only my 2 cents on it.

Also, Ryan was very very sick with the flu in that match with Hermes.

 

[Drew Foster]

A. He sat in the fight against Hermes because he was sick as hell with the flu and had no energy to try and take down a guy who outweighed him by 30lbs.

B. However, he still was generally moving towards sweeping or taking the back instead of finishing from the guard as Drew pointed out. And this is the case in almost all his recent fights whether he shot a take down or sat first.

Yep.

 

[mrpopenfresh]

It's normal for styles to evolve. Hall may very well be starting a new grapling discipline, like Sambo, CSW or American Jiu Jitsu.

 

[Fedorzilla]

I thought this was interesting a while ago and then watched a recent gi fight with Hall where he was going inverted all over the place. What he means is "I'm not going to use it against the top of the food chain guys who will eat my lunch if I try to get cute with it"

Also, tell Cobrinha, Marcelo and Mendes that the guard is disappearing. You will see Ryan Hall and everyone else like this with a good guard look to pull guard until they face an inferior takedown artist (or some chump that they know they can handle) OR the rules change. Those guys are evil from guard and part of the reason is the way in which you train... that is, with people of varying sizes. Fabio said in his old days EVERYONE pulled guard and so (being a bigger guy) he just worked top game and his personal game evolved from that. If you notice, guard pulling is much more common at the lighter weights for this reason and most big guys don't pull guard unless they're against Roger. If you're a featherweight training with guys of varying size, and you're not Buvaisar Saitiev, the chances are you're going to have to start on bottom and you're going to stay there until you get a sick guard. Your foundation will be the guard. Hall could spend 10 years working TDs and he'll still be a better guard player... Sorry.

So, guys like Cobrinha and Mendes and Marcelo are going to be like that in many cases. Their top games are sick, but you go to your comfort zone. It's like Anderson Silva saying "it looks like MMA is moving toward Wrestling, so I'm going to become a wrestler." WRONG. These guys (including Hall) are all still pulling guard in competition because that's their bread and butter and it won't stop. Ultimately, this will continue until they start awarding 2 points for "top position" rather than "takedowns." Until then, if I feel that my chances of getting swept are lower than getting a sweep and/or that my chances of getting the takedown are better than getting the sweep, I'm going to pull guard and sweep for points.

 

[MUFC]

I feel like this has been discussed 50 times.

 

[Doh!]

@ Fedorzilla it seems you may have missed a post....

These kind of discussions are difficult to have without them being derailed and taken off topic, or argued in circles. The reason for that is because there is always some idiot that has to put in his two cents, without having a) educated themselves about the source of the discussion b) kept up with discussion at hand. So if you are going to say something, please make sure you have listened to the interview AND READ THE THREAD so you aren't "that guy" that just randomly spouts of something he thinks is a legit point that has already been covered time and time again. That guy is the worst.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, we can continue.

Hall could spend 10 years working TDs and he'll still be a better guard player.

So what you're saying is that if Hall suddenly spent MORE time on wrestling than he has on Jiu-Jitsu that he wouldn't be MORE proficient at wrestling? Did that make sense in your head before you typed it?

Until then, if I feel that my chances of getting swept are lower than getting a sweep and/or that my chances of getting the takedown are better than getting the sweep, I'm going to pull guard and sweep for points.

So you agree with him that the goal is to get on top. That's exactly what he is saying per the earlier explanatory posts by myself, Drew, and Kenny. See my first point above.

 

[Calibur]

It's normal for styles to evolve. Hall may very well be starting a new grapling discipline, like Sambo, CSW or American Jiu Jitsu.

LOL. What?

How is it a new discipline? Is he tapping out people with telekenisis or something?

I don't know what it is about grappling that makes everyone think that doing a move that fits your body type automatically= new martial art. When people look at Flloyd Mayweather's jab they don't say he's created a new school of striking. He's just boxing.

 

[Fedorzilla]

@ Fedorzilla it seems you may have missed a post....

Seems like the TS missed about 10 threads. This shit has been covered to an absurd extent, so forgive me if I'm running off at the mouth just like about everyone else here. I did at least emphasize that this has to be viewed taking into account body type and training conditions. Also, if you're going to make cryptic points about the fact that what I've asserted has been addressed, be specific and contribute something like a smartass who actually has smarts.

So what you're saying is that if Hall suddenly spent MORE time on wrestling than he has on Jiu-Jitsu that he wouldn't be MORE proficient at wrestling? Did that make sense in your head before you typed it?

I'm not disputing that he will improve as a wrestler. It never hurts to train any aspect of grappling. My point is simply that a large portion of your lighter fighters will never be true top game players (start on top via takedown and stay on top), as their training time is often dominated by being on bottom such that bottom position becomes their bread and butter. They will instinctively revert back to it b/c they're more confident and trained at sweeps/backtakes than takedowns. Thus, Hall's claims about grappling being more "top game" oriented (which it always has been and explained more below) is empty rhetoric.

So you agree with him that the goal is to get on top. That's exactly what he is saying per the earlier explanatory posts by myself, Drew, and Kenny. See my first point above.

Yes, and Saulo and everyone who ever said "position before submission" has echoed this for years. A sweep is given points b/c top position is better. Passes are given points b/c side control is better. Nothing new and nothing changing. My point was that, in spite of that fact, the approach for plenty of smaller guys will remain the same because they instinctively feel more comfortable starting off playing guard as that's their "home base" on a day to day basis in the gym. Bigger guys have always been top players because that's how they train mostly.

 

[Foppa21]

He hasn't really said anything that people didn't know. Top game almost always wins. Bottom game is a heck of a lot more fun though. Liken it to golf's "Drive for show, putt for dough"

 

[ShanghaiBJJ]

Guard and top are two sides of the same coin.

There will always be someone pulling guard, if he feels it is the better place for him to win the match against this particular opponent.

The goal should be what Fabio said about Cobrinha:
"It is a nightmare to be in his gaurd and you are actually relieved when he sweeps you and gets on top.... then it gets worse!"

 

[mtruitt76]

I thought this was interesting a while ago and then watched a recent gi fight with Hall where he was going inverted all over the place. What he means is "I'm not going to use it against the top of the food chain guys who will eat my lunch if I try to get cute with it"

Also, tell Cobrinha, Marcelo and Mendes that the guard is disappearing. You will see Ryan Hall and everyone else like this with a good guard look to pull guard until they face an inferior takedown artist (or some chump that they know they can handle) OR the rules change. Those guys are evil from guard and part of the reason is the way in which you train... that is, with people of varying sizes. Fabio said in his old days EVERYONE pulled guard and so (being a bigger guy) he just worked top game and his personal game evolved from that. If you notice, guard pulling is much more common at the lighter weights for this reason and most big guys don't pull guard unless they're against Roger. If you're a featherweight training with guys of varying size, and you're not Buvaisar Saitiev, the chances are you're going to have to start on bottom and you're going to stay there until you get a sick guard. Your foundation will be the guard. Hall could spend 10 years working TDs and he'll still be a better guard player... Sorry.

So, guys like Cobrinha and Mendes and Marcelo are going to be like that in many cases. Their top games are sick, but you go to your comfort zone. It's like Anderson Silva saying "it looks like MMA is moving toward Wrestling, so I'm going to become a wrestler." WRONG. These guys (including Hall) are all still pulling guard in competition because that's their bread and butter and it won't stop. Ultimately, this will continue until they start awarding 2 points for "top position" rather than "takedowns." Until then, if I feel that my chances of getting swept are lower than getting a sweep and/or that my chances of getting the takedown are better than getting the sweep, I'm going to pull guard and sweep for points.

Probably the most reasonable post in this thread.


I find it hilarious that Ryan can make such a provocative statement, like "the guard will disappear from BJJ overtime" and people will jump on the comment like it is a literal gospel truth. The only way the guard will ever disappear from competition BJJ is if they stop awarding points for sweeps.

First the notion of the guard being a mechanically disadvantaged position is not true across all weight classes. At ultra heavyweight were guys weigh 230 lbs + and speed and flexibility are less common the guard is generally a mechanically disadvantaged position. This is why a majority of ultra heavyweight matches involve a battle for the takedown. At the lighter weights almost all matches involve a battle for the guard pull. The increased speed, flexibility, and reduced weight make it much easier to score points from a sweep than a guard pass. Heck in Ryan's weight class the guard is dominant and the majority of matches involve the competitors fighting for the guard pull. If Ryan wants to play top game, then he really doesn't need to work on his wrestling much at all since the vast majority of his opponents will pull guard and give him the top position.


Also top position is only superior when it is top side control, knee on belly, or mount. Top position is not superior when you are on top in someone's guard. Again the truth of this statement varies across weight classes, but more points are scored from sweeps than guard passes until you get into the heaviest weight classes.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The thing is, Ryan was talking about the elite levels of grappling. He was pretty clear about that. The reason that makes a big difference is that there is much less room for error at high levels, and advantages get exaggerated. For example, I've been grappling for about 8 years, and when I get on top of someone, there's a pretty good chance they can get out. It's not that big a deal for me to mount you, because I only finish 50% of the time or so (against similar opposition).

If Roger Gracie mounts you, you're done. If Marcelo Garcia takes your back, you're done, regardless of how good you are. There is no room for error, and so to go from an equal position (standing) to a slightly unequal one (being on the bottom in guard) is giving up substantial ground for no reason, other than lack of standing grappling skills. Hall mentions that sweeps rarely occur at high levels in any clean way, and if you watch ADCC tapes (especially the final rounds) you'll see that he's right. If you are down in guard, you either get passed, stand back up, or hold your ground. Very few subs or sweeps from guard are successful at high level.

For any chess players out there, it's the same difference between playing strategies you see between ok players and masters. Masters can't give their opponents an inch, because if they make even a small error their opponent will pounce on it and they won't get another chance to win. Their opponent won't mess up and let them back in the game. Amateurs make so many mistakes that there is always time to get back in the game. Same thing in grappling.

 

[Knuckles69]

I guess the way I'm looking at this interview is that Ryan Hall sees an ideal.

The ideal would be to double leg your opponent, pass their guard, get to mount and choke, or get to back and choke. All techniques should be aligned to the ideal but that won't necessarily be possible in every case.

But in the interim if one does play guard they should be looking to align their guard skills with the ideal of getting on top and moving through the progression eventually leading to mount or back. If that isn't possible then make good decisions in guard or whatever position doesn't grant you the mechanical advantages of being on top.

You can't always be on top and you can't always be in good position. So positional transition becomes important in this theory of BJJ - 'hanging out' or 'playing guard' without the goal of advancing position or worse yet sacrificing position is something to be avoided.

I like it. I think it took some courage for him to say this and to be honest in a critique of his own game.

 

[ostapbjj]

Hall mentions that sweeps rarely occur at high levels in any clean way, and if you watch ADCC tapes (especially the final rounds) you'll see that he's right. If you are down in guard, you either get passed, stand back up, or hold your ground. Very few subs or sweeps from guard are successful at high level.

Barely anything happens at the high level when both guys are very good. However, there were way more sweeps than guard passes in ADCC, especially in the finals.

 

[mtruitt76]

If Roger Gracie mounts you, you're done. If Marcelo Garcia takes your back, you're done, regardless of how good you are. There is no room for error, and so to go from an equal position (standing) to a slightly unequal one (being on the bottom in guard) is giving up substantial ground for no reason, other than lack of standing grappling skills. Hall mentions that sweeps rarely occur at high levels in any clean way, and if you watch ADCC tapes (especially the final rounds) you'll see that he's right. If you are down in guard, you either get passed, stand back up, or hold your ground. Very few subs or sweeps from guard are successful at high level.

(I am going to preface this statement by saying I am only talking about gi BJJ, because that is what I study and those are the matches I watch)

When you say the guard is an unequal position are you talking about all weight classes or only the highest weight classes? The guard is actually a superior position in the lower weight classes. You see a lot of simultaneous guard pulls in the light weights for a reason, you stand a much better chance of scoring points from a sweep than a guard pass. You can only really say the guard is an inferior position in the ultra heavy and super heavy weight classes.

People keep saying that the guard is an inferior position, but what exactly are they basing this view point on? It certainly is not the black belt matches from the Pan Ams and Worlds. I have watched all the matches from those events from 2008 on and you can't reach that conclusion based on those event except for the heaviest weight classes. So is everyone basing their opinion solely off Ryan's statement?

 

[anaconda]

I think a lot of ppl are blowing this out of proportion.

In any case, I'd love to know what ryan thinks about whether he would rather be in guard, 0-0 no advantages or on top? I think he would still rather be on the bottom than in someone's guard, especially when that person's guard is their A game.

So while he would prefer to wrestle for top position if he could get points, I think he might still pull guard in order to pre-empt the opponent from playing their A game (since most people in his weight class will pull). This would be in a real tournament situation, and not in a vacuum. I think in a vacuum he chooses top position.

Also, the gi neutralizes a few of the advantages of being on top in my opinion. Its much easier to sweep an opponent wearing a gi than not.

 

[knoxpk]

I think a lot of ppl are blowing this out of proportion.

In any case, I'd love to know what ryan thinks about whether he would rather be in guard, 0-0 no advantages or on top? I think he would still rather be on the bottom than in someone's guard, especially when that person's guard is their A game.

So while he would prefer to wrestle for top position if he could get points, I think he might still pull guard in order to pre-empt the opponent from playing their A game (since most people in his weight class will pull). This would be in a real tournament situation, and not in a vacuum. I think in a vacuum he chooses top position.

Also, the gi neutralizes a few of the advantages of being on top in my opinion. Its much easier to sweep an opponent wearing a gi than not.

Is he JUST talking about sport BJJ or everything when he said what he said?

By everything I mean MMA, SD etc...

 

[anaconda]

Is he JUST talking about sport BJJ or everything when he said what he said?

By everything I mean MMA, SD etc...

I think mma has to be discussed separately. I mean the addition of strikes changes everything.

Whats SD?

I assume he is discussing submission wrestling and gi bjj.

 

[Irenaeus]

I think mma has to be discussed separately. I mean the addition of strikes changes everything.

Whats SD?

Self-defense perhaps?