Ryan Hall fried my brain

from what i got is that ryan wants to play top game more and not rely on pulling guard.

but now it seems when he goes against top guys you will see him going to play guard/butt scoot and he will still play inverted guard
-watch him against hermes franca a few months ago.

but i believe that ryan wants to get to the point where he gets top position instead of going to guard.

but that is only my 2 cents on it.
 
Ryan just believes wrestling is the direction BJJ is going. John Danaher and Dave Camarillo, among others, also believe this. Ryan still put me in guards and swept me ASAP, but there wasn't a feeling of "paying guard." He wasn't playing from the bottom. He put me in guard long enough to sweep and that was it.

I think this sums it up.

I think takedowns and sweeping is going to be the next wave in BJJ. There will be less 'playing guard' in the future especially as BJJ applies to MMA. Guard will be used to sweep or when things go wrong.
 
Should BJJ (sport and self-defense) start emphasizing getting to the top more? Should we be emphasizing fundamental approach of advancing position and maintaining it until a submission can be applied.

I think that so many people have become enamored with the idea of submitting people from the guard that we've forgotten that guard should be something of a 'last ditch' effort when things have gone wrong for us (failed takedown, knocked or pushed to the ground, etc) and that instead of camping out in guard we need to use it to transition.

Just thoughts for discussion.

More is not quantifiable enough

of course you should do some takedowns

but there will always be different styles/approaches, not everybody is the same/that would also be boring)

And especially for MMA fighters it is a time economy thing

From what we have seen in MMA and grappling today I propose that takedowns is the hardest part to learn, it takes the most time and effort,

we have world class BJJ guys who started in their late teens, who are on a technical level just as good if not better then guys who have done it since they were kids, this doesn't happen in wrestling/judo. the talent pool plays a factor but also the nature of the techniques

you can get more reps in drilling submissions then takedowns

Look at Nick Diaz, he won a close striking fight, but I would wager that despite the disadvantages that Hall talks about, Diaz would have been closer to finishing had they been on the ground, guard or top, he tried a couple of takedowns and failed all but one, most logical and safe would have been to pull guard

Everything is cyclical, MMA/grappling (BJJ/SW competitions) is still very young sports compared to others

first BJJ ruled, then wrestlers started to learn sub D, then strikers learned Takedown D then wrestlers learned to strike(where we are now roughly) now BJJ guys are better at takedowns then before but maybe the most logical thing would be to be even better at the guard or the next big thing LEGLOCKS!
 
from what i got is that ryan wants to play top game more and not rely on pulling guard.

but now it seems when he goes against top guys you will see him going to play guard/butt scoot and he will still play inverted guard
-watch him against hermes franca a few months ago.

but i believe that ryan wants to get to the point where he gets top position instead of going to guard.

but that is only my 2 cents on it.

A. He sat in the fight against Hermes because he was sick as hell with the flu and had no energy to try and take down a guy who outweighed him by 30lbs.

B. However, he still was generally moving towards sweeping or taking the back instead of finishing from the guard as Drew pointed out. And this is the case in almost all his recent fights whether he shot a take down or sat first.

Of course Ryan has us (his students) learning the guard, working subs and sweeps from it because those pieces are necessary in order to be a complete BJJ fighter. However, he always emphasizes that top position is the ideal spot to be and our goal is to get there as soon as we can. If that is with a takedown...great. If it's by pulling guard and sweeping your opponent...also great. The idea is to have the tools in your arsenal that are necessary to allow you to choose the correct strategy for the moment at hand. You shouldn't be forced to one or the other just because you aren't competent at both.
 
@YeahBee

I actually think that takedowns (wrestling) are relatively easy to learn and that it's more difficult to learn the technical aspects of scrambling which allow wrestlers to consistently achieve and maintain dominant position in a scramble.

In BJJ many times we're content to create a scramble to get back to the guard. I think this is possibly an error in the way we train and we should focus on coming out of scrambles on top. Either on top in guard , half-guard, side, mount or end up on the back.
 
@YeahBee

I actually think that takedowns (wrestling) are relatively easy to learn and that it's more difficult to learn the technical aspects of scrambling which allow wrestlers to consistently achieve and maintain dominant position in a scramble.

In BJJ many times we're content to create a scramble to get back to the guard. I think this is possibly an error in the way we train and we should focus on coming out of scrambles on top. Either on top in guard , half-guard, side, mount or end up on the back.

Disagree that takedowns are easier to learn. It's just most players have such a terrible takedown skills there is a lot more room to grow. It's like weight lifting for the first time. You'll increase strength rapidly then you plateau a bit.

Scrambling was easy for me, probably since I'm a smaller/quicker guy. I do feel BJJ is more of a patient game than Wrestling though. So that would explain resting/being content on guard play. It's also playing to the point system. In Wrestling, you don't go to your back, period.
 
Disagree that takedowns are easier to learn. It's just most players have such a terrible takedown skills there is a lot more room to grow. It's like weight lifting for the first time. You'll increase strength rapidly then you plateau a bit.

Scrambling was easy for me, probably since I'm a smaller/quicker guy. I do feel BJJ is more of a patient game than Wrestling though. So that would explain resting/being content on guard play. It's also playing to the point system. In Wrestling, you don't go to your back, period.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think that for me taking people down is easy and I've been able to take down people with good high school and college wrestling experience relatively easy once I understood the fundamentals of a take down and more importantly the angle's at which one should shoot.

For me it was holding those wrestlers down and keeping them down and not ending up in a less than ideal situation. So for me there seems to be much more involved and many more variables to a technical scramble than to a technical take down.

A double and single leg take down is an ideal. You practice it at first slowly like you do the arm bar from guard. The technical aspects don't change, the variables in application change. For me there are more variables in a scramble than in executing a single or double leg.

That's just my opinion though.
 
@YeahBee

I actually think that takedowns (wrestling) are relatively easy to learn and that it's more difficult to learn the technical aspects of scrambling which allow wrestlers to consistently achieve and maintain dominant position in a scramble.

In BJJ many times we're content to create a scramble to get back to the guard. I think this is possibly an error in the way we train and we should focus on coming out of scrambles on top. Either on top in guard , half-guard, side, mount or end up on the back.

Ok but isn't a scramble just when both guys are trying to get top position? They can't both win, one guy is going to lose the scramble and end up on bottom.

Here's the unique thing about BJJ: in every other grappling/wrestling art, when you get pinned on the bottom you are supposed to just give up. Bottom position means you lose.

BJJ is the first art to really focus on using the guard as a tool to WIN from the bottom. This totally revolutionized grappling.

You guys saying that top position is better than guard, and that you should focus on takedowns and achieving top position in BJJ, are COMPLETELY missing the point of BJJ. OBVIOUSLY top position is better. That's why guard techniques needed to be invented in the first place!

Ryan Hall is only able to say this stuff because he already has a sick guard game.
 
Ok but isn't a scramble just when both guys are trying to get top position? They can't both win, one guy is going to lose the scramble and end up on bottom.

Here's the unique thing about BJJ: in every other grappling/wrestling art, when you get pinned on the bottom you are supposed to just give up. Bottom position means you lose.

BJJ is the first art to really focus on using the guard as a tool to WIN from the bottom. This totally revolutionized grappling.

You guys saying that top position is better than guard, and that you should focus on takedowns and achieving top position in BJJ, are COMPLETELY missing the point of BJJ. OBVIOUSLY top position is better. That's why guard techniques needed to be invented in the first place!

Ryan Hall is only able to say this stuff because he already has a sick guard game.

This.
 
As someone who fights at Light Feather, rarely does one person not pull guard.
 
Here's the thing with the guard. If the person on the bottom does everything perfectly, and the guy on the top also does everything perfectly, the guy on top still stays where he is and wins. Eventually the level of competition in BJJ is going to get to the point where guard playing is going to be very rare.
 
Here's the thing with the guard. If the person on the bottom does everything perfectly, and the guy on the top also does everything perfectly, the guy on top still stays where he is and wins. Eventually the level of competition in BJJ is going to get to the point where guard playing is going to be very rare.

Nah, if you watch top level matches where one guy pulls guard and both guys are unable to score any points on each other, the guy who pulled guard usually wins by getting advantages for submission/sweep attempts. It's harder to earn advantages from top position, you basically have to go for a leglock and that means giving up top position.
 
Here's the thing with the guard. If the person on the bottom does everything perfectly, and the guy on the top also does everything perfectly, the guy on top still stays where he is and wins. Eventually the level of competition in BJJ is going to get to the point where guard playing is going to be very rare.

it's always going to common I think. if one guy is on top trying to pass the other will using a guard to prevent him from passing.

eventually numbers of guard pullers are going to decrease though.
 
This gave me a solid laugh.

If you guys could hear him in-person I don't think he really meant we will never see the guard again at some point in the future.

Yeah I'm sure you're right. Ryan Hall sounds like a very intelligent person and I'm sure he already knows that. But I think in general people neglect to realize what I was saying.

In these kind of threads, people are usually so opinionated they skip through the thread without reading the posts. I'm surprised someone read it.
 
WAIT! So in a fight in the ring or on the street or in pretty much any grappling sport in the world being on top is better?

Say it aint so!
 
weird, I haven't watched many of Ryan's fights since that interview but from the few that I saw, I wouldn't really say he's been playing a top game

All he's really done is fight in the Worlds and Wilson Reis where he double legged him and got the RNC.
 
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