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Ryan Hall fried my brain

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Knuckles69, Oct 13, 2010.

  1. Knuckles69

    Knuckles69 Purple Belt

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    After reading the interview that Ryan Hall my brain is fried.

    I seriously can't really get it out of my head. I know it's been touched on before but I think a lot of controversial things were said in that interview. When I spoke to some of the people in my academy some agreed and some seemed to really not like what was said.

    Things like:

     
  2. Hellboy31

    Hellboy31 Brown Belt

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    totally respect Ryan's opinion (as someone that has accomplished more than I ever will in BJJ) but I refuse to believe that. The guard will always be a fundamental part of BJJ... Those who neglect working on their guard games do so at their own peril IMO
     
  3. crackbaby420**

    crackbaby420** Yellow Belt

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    i agree with ryan hall that playing underneath someone really good sucks and its better to be on top. People with good base on top can wear u out fast, always better to put your weight on someone and wear them out.
     
  4. armtriangle

    armtriangle Brown Belt

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    The guard will only disappear if the scoring changes. As long as you can pull guard without penalty, the guard will be a major part of sport bjj.
     
  5. Gerbiljiujitsu

    Gerbiljiujitsu Purple Belt

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    I'm a guard player and I totally agree with Ryan. It has forced me to rethink my training and it makes me want to work on my takedowns.
     
  6. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Being on top is good, but I think Ryan is simplifying things a bit too much. Back control was still the most common position to get submitted from last time I checked, yet it (usually) involves being on your back with your opponent on top. Also, a lot of guys these days seem to be pulling guard because they find it easier to get a sweep than a guard pass. Not quite sure what Ryan would say about this preference. Mind you, I'm in no position to criticize him, but I feel that this infamous interview is something that either misrepresents his views or represents views that he has come to hold just recently, and that he might reconsider later.
     
  7. Jiujitsunoob

    Jiujitsunoob Blue Belt

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    I agree with most of what he says.

    But I believe he makes the same logical fallacy alot of people do. And thats over emphasis the role of physics and 'mechanical advantage' of things.

    To me, this is like saying the best poker player is going to be the best at math.

    The game dynamics play a really vital role and are ignored when you just look at the physics of things. Instead of just studying the physics and mechanics behind moves, you have to look at it from a more economics point of view, a more game theory point of view.

    From that point of view, things like guard will never disappear.

    Thats like saying knives will disappear because guns were invented. Sure guns are better than knives in 99% of situations. But everyday, people are still getting f'ed up by knives!
     
  8. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    This is at least a year old, not news anymore. Ryan's been a buttscooter for a long time, and he just said all this stuff after he realized he needed to work on his top game. Now I hear his top game is pretty sick these days too. But he totally exaggerated to prove a point in that interview.
     
  9. Knuckles69

    Knuckles69 Purple Belt

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    I think the overall trend toward simplicity is the aspect I find most interesting.

    While it might be over simplifying the idea that quite possibly the purpose of the guard should be as a transitional position I think holds a lot of truth. There are exceptions to the rule but how safe is it to rely on submitting someone from the guard? Especially since most of us realize it's easier to learn submission defense than it is to consistently submit people.

    Should BJJ (sport and self-defense) start emphasizing getting to the top more? Should we be emphasizing fundamental approach of advancing position and maintaining it until a submission can be applied.

    I think that so many people have become enamored with the idea of submitting people from the guard that we've forgotten that guard should be something of a 'last ditch' effort when things have gone wrong for us (failed takedown, knocked or pushed to the ground, etc) and that instead of camping out in guard we need to use it to transition.

    Just thoughts for discussion.
     
  10. ProdigyOfZen

    ProdigyOfZen Orange Belt

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    Here is my take. Just for some short background on me. I did muay thai/ tang soo do when i was 17 to 20 and did a little bit of grappling/submission wrestling in that time but never with Gi. I just recently started gi BJJ in May and I am now 27 years old.

    I play top game and top game exclusively. I only use guard to sweep or get back to my knees/stand up. I can count on one hand how many people I have submitted in my guard but just in the last 5 months of BJJ i don't know how many submissions i have from side/top/back mount.

    I believe it was Rickson Gracie who said "BJJ is a top game, you only go to your guard when you are in trouble." This is what I follow. I always look to pass guard and/or takedown etc. I have always seen BJJ as a top game and I am technically a newbie but have followed MMA for the last 10 years.

    The guard obviously won't go away because it is diametrically opposed to the top game. You can't have one without the other or something like that.

    I just say "always try to play top game, when you can't play the sweep or stand up to reset" If the guy is much much bigger/stronger than you always use your speed to play the back. Stay low with a strong base and heavy on your opponent and never ever allow him to play his game. I play my BJJ game by a few simple rules and it has worked quite well so far.
     
  11. Douglas Funnie

    Douglas Funnie Green Belt

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    it's like chess. sometimes you have to be Black and you have to defend as Black and get equality. Lots of grandmasters still win as Black but if they had a choice they would almost all choose to play as White. Why? Because White has a tempo on Black and if two grandmasters of equal strength play White is going to win way more than Black but there will be many draws.

    Never did Ryan say to stop studying the guard. Play against a good wrestler and you are going to get put on your back at some point and you will have to defend and maybe if he's ignorant or you are very good and just better than he is you will get a submission.

    Against two equally skilled opponents that are highly knowledgable in the art of BJJ and are of the same size only the guy on top can claim an advantage. Just look at MMA, do you want to be on the bottom of someone who can rain down a barrage of punches on your face with the help of gravity?

    If you're a 170 lber do you want GSP on top of you? If you're a 205 lber do you want Jon Jones on top of you? If you're a heavyweight do you want Lesnar or Velasquez on top of you?

    Ryan's not talking about some novice blue belts having fun. He is talking about Submission Grappling on the highest level.
     
  12. Douglas Funnie

    Douglas Funnie Green Belt

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    Knuckles69 and ProdigyOfZen make fine points.
     
  13. Chalito

    Chalito Purple Belt

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    I think there is going to be a change eventually. Being on top is key I believe, you have many more options and better control of where the fight will go. Will the guard vanish all together? I doubt it.

    also can someone link the interview? Thanks
     
  14. ostapbjj

    ostapbjj Orange Belt

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    Hall's argument is interesting, but I just can't see it as being the case. The only way the guard strategy will disappear, in my opinion, apart from a change in the rules, is if there's some sort of revolution in guard passing. Perhaps many years down the line this will happen. After all, Hall was talking about 30 years, but it's hard to accurately predict anything in such a long time frame.

    However, looking at recent results and trends, I don't see a shift happening to top game becoming more dominant. In fact, to me it seems that the guard strategy is as strong as ever (especially at the lower weights).

    Look at the ADCC. It wasn't some sort of guard passing bonanza. Very few good guards were passed. Rafael Mendes won his division without a single guard pass and played off his back the whole time. Cobrinha pulled guard on most of his opponents too.
     
  15. Knuckles69

    Knuckles69 Purple Belt

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  16. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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  17. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Yes but back mount is still not a guard.

    This interview is possibly taken out of context. I don't think anyone is saying the guard is going to completely vanish in the next 10 or even 40 years. Ryan just believes wrestling is the direction BJJ is going. John Danaher and Dave Camarillo, among others, also believe this. Ryan still put me in guards and swept me ASAP, but there wasn't a feeling of "paying guard." He wasn't playing from the bottom. He put me in guard long enough to sweep and that was it.
     
  18. joe90210

    joe90210 Blue Belt

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    weird, I haven't watched many of Ryan's fights since that interview but from the few that I saw, I wouldn't really say he's been playing a top game
     
  19. Knuckles69

    Knuckles69 Purple Belt

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    Thank you so much for that insight.

    He's supposed to be coming out to our academy in February for a seminar. I am working on scheduling a private with him while he's here and I wanted to get some insight on his philosophy.

    This helps a lot.
     
  20. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    This gave me a solid laugh.

    If you guys could hear him in-person I don't think he really meant we will never see the guard again at some point in the future.
     

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