Ryan Hall fried my brain

[Kenny from MD]

(I am going to preface this statement by saying I am only talking about gi BJJ, because that is what I study and those are the matches I watch)

When you say the guard is an unequal position are you talking about all weight classes or only the highest weight classes? The guard is actually a superior position in the lower weight classes. You see a lot of simultaneous guard pulls in the light weights for a reason, you stand a much better chance of scoring points from a sweep than a guard pass. You can only really say the guard is an inferior position in the ultra heavy and super heavy weight classes.

People keep saying that the guard is an inferior position, but what exactly are they basing this view point on? It certainly is not the black belt matches from the Pan Ams and Worlds. I have watched all the matches from those events from 2008 on and you can't reach that conclusion based on those event except for the heaviest weight classes. So is everyone basing their opinion solely off Ryan's statement?

You are not understanding what is being said at all. You need to look at the position objectively in order to understand theoretical "perfect position" not simply the results of matches which is nowhere close to what was being referenced (ie when the sport evolves to a much higher level and opponents are no longer mismatched in skill)
The top would be superior due to mechanical advantages because of the positioning of your body, which I already pointed out in my only other post in this thread.

 

[jhasan]

Nah, if you watch top level matches where one guy pulls guard and both guys are unable to score any points on each other, the guy who pulled guard usually wins by getting advantages for submission/sweep attempts. It's harder to earn advantages from top position, you basically have to go for a leglock and that means giving up top position.

If the guy on top does everything perfectly, the guy on the bottom wouldn't get any advantages, even if he also did everything perfectly. Ryan stresses this all the time.

 

[knoxpk]

I think mma has to be discussed separately. I mean the addition of strikes changes everything.

Whats SD?

I assume he is discussing submission wrestling and gi bjj.

Self-defense perhaps?

Yes, sorry for the overuse of abbreviations.

But to address the clarification of the post from anaconda, obviously if training BJJ for sport you also want to consider the other applications of the art. If it is starting to skew towards top players even in pure BJJ fights wouldn't it make sense that the top is the place to be and furthermore the place to start. As the skill gap closes and as Kenny pointed out the top guy makes less mistakes, isn't it obvious that the top IS the place to be?

I honestly dont think it was a revolutionary or ground breaking comment. I think what was revolutionary and ground breaking is that a high level and well respected BJJ player is the one that said it. Hasn't Monson, Arona (granted a BJJ BB), Kerr and others "won" pure grappling comps by virtue of being on top and minimizing errors?

It only makes sense that as you minimize mistakes from the top that the bottom man gets in bigger and bigger trouble. I dont think it is accidental that pretty much all grappling styles reward being or getting on top.

 

[redaxe]

If the guy on top does everything perfectly, the guy on the bottom wouldn't get any advantages, even if he also did everything perfectly. Ryan stresses this all the time.

True in theory but false in practice, in my experience. It is impossible to do everything "perfectly." And the guy playing guard can often earn advantages for even a half-assed submission attempt that he has no chance of finishing and the guy on top is defending perfectly, just because the ref wants someone to win the match and he has to pick the winner based on "aggressiveness."

If I pull guard on you and I at least try to do a few sweeps and a few submissions, then I'm the one who initiated all the action, and the ref is going to give me the win if you don't score any points on me.

Of course some refs might just give the win to the guy who's on top. Scoreless matches that go to referee decision are subjective and totally up to the whim of the individual ref. In my experience, the easiest way to earn advantages is through sub attempts though.

 

[BatBoyJG]

Guys at the lighter weights pull guard because as they were coming up in the ranks they were forced to the guard, so they got best at that. Come competition time everyone had great guard games, and top games that were a little below their guards. So now it is easier to sweep/submit then pass. I like playing guard because its more fun, but I know that being on top is better.

 

[newerest]

I don't understand what the arguement is

ryan hall is CLEARLY pointing out that with gravity on the other person's side, therefore you are working from a disadvantage. Does this mean guard is in-effective? No..

Does this mean we should work on guard, hell yes. if anything you should spend more time on guard than on your top game, just because you never want to be on your back. ergo, you need to be good off of it.


all ryan is saying that if you only pull guard in competition, you are incredibly one dimensional.

guard isn't going anywhere, guard players aren't going anywhere

the only difference is top bjj players will have to learn wrestling.

 

[redaxe]

I don't understand what the arguement is

ryan hall is CLEARLY pointing out that with gravity on the other person's side, therefore you are working from a disadvantage. Does this mean guard is in-effective? No..

Does this mean we should work on guard, hell yes. if anything you should spend more time on guard than on your top game, just because you never want to be on your back. ergo, you need to be good off of it.

Exactly. The fact that the top position has a "mechanical advantage" due to gravity, means that you should practice your guard and get even better at it in case you do find yourself on the bottom and need a way of getting to the top.

To interpret Ryan's ideas to mean that the guard should be de-emphasized in BJJ training, would be completely missing the point.

 

[mtruitt76]

You are not understanding what is being said at all. You need to look at the position objectively in order to understand theoretical "perfect position" not simply the results of matches which is nowhere close to what was being referenced (ie when the sport evolves to a much higher level and opponents are no longer mismatched in skill)
The top would be superior due to mechanical advantages because of the positioning of your body, which I already pointed out in my only other post in this thread.

It is not that I didn't understand what was being said, I just wanted people to clarify how they came to the conclusion that guard is an inferior position and a position of mechanical disadvantage.

I also wanted to point out that all the current empirical evidence points out that the guard is not an inferior position nor is it a position of mechanical disadvantage except for the heavier weight classes. I guess you can take the position that everyone in the lighter weight classes are highly skilled at guard and suck at passing, but I think the more reasonable conclusion is that passing guard at the lighter weight classes is so difficult due to the speed and flexibility of lighter weight classes and the lack of weight of the person trying to pass.

Again I am only talking about gi matches.

 

[Doh!]

^^

Do you even understand what "mechanical disadvantage" means? If it exists at all, it wouldn't change due to the weight of the competitors. It either does or doesn't exist.

I get a hearty chuckle out of randos on the internet who have no elite-level training or competition experience clearly misunderstanding what Hall was saying and getting all up in arms about it. I'm willing to bet that Ryan isn't losing any sleep over the fact that you disagree.

Arguing that the BJJ scoring system favors the bottom person and as a result there is no "mechanical advantage" to the top has literally nothing to do with Ryan's statement. Moreover, that assertion has nothing to do with the fallacious conclusion drawn from it.

The dissenters here are doing the equivalent of arguing that, "Due to the fact that kicks score higher in Tae Kwon Do than punches do, it's better to hold your hands at your sides and jump up and down when stand-up fighting." Brilliant logic there, Chief.

 

[mtruitt76]

^^

Do you even understand what "mechanical disadvantage" means? If it exists at all, it wouldn't change due to the weight of the competitors. It either does or doesn't exist.

I get a hearty chuckle out of randos on the internet who have no elite-level training or competition experience clearly misunderstanding what Hall was saying and getting all up in arms about it. I'm willing to bet that Ryan isn't losing any sleep over the fact that you disagree.

Arguing that the BJJ scoring system favors the bottom person and as a result there is no "mechanical advantage" to the top has literally nothing to do with Ryan's statement. Moreover, that assertion has nothing to do with the fallacious conclusion drawn from it.

The dissenters here are doing the equivalent of arguing that, "Due to the fact that kicks score higher in Tae Kwon Do than punches do, it's better to hold your hands at your sides and jump up and down when stand-up fighting." Brilliant logic there, Chief.

Mechanical advantage is output force/input. If you are saying a position has a superior mechanical advantage, then that position has a higher ration of output force to input force. I think I have an understanding of what a mechanical advantage is. Proving that one position has a true mechanical advantage over another position would require force measurement. Do you know a way to measure the forces during a BJJ match? If you do please enlighten me cause I am drawing a blank on how someone would do this.


Also since mechanical advantage is output force/input force a ultra heavyweight competitor can exert 230 lbs of force on the bottom player with no input force beyond gravity while a rooster weight competitor can exert 126 lbs of force with on input force beyond gravity. So yes the mechanical advantage would absolutely change according to weight classes. Grips, angles, strength, weight would all be factors in determining the actual mechanical advantage of any given position. With so many variables and the element of constantly changing movement providing a true and quantifiable measurement would be nearly impossible, at least as it seems that way to me. If you know how to do this let me know, because I am in the dark.

Since there isn't a way to take quantifiable measurements to determine the relative mechanical advantages of various positions, once could determine if certain positions have a mechanical advantage based on empirical evidence, i.e competition results. One would assume that positions that conveyed a mechanical advantage would have a higher success rate than other positions. Now there are many intervening human factors which could preclude the positions with the best mechanical advantage being used, but I believe competitors are using the strategies which they believe give them the best chance to win. They are looking for the positions which have a mechanical advantage. As such they are engage in a evolutionary system. This system given time will favor the positions which offer a mechanical advantage. As such if we assume the system is mature enough, then the positions which are being used can be reasonably said to convey a mechanical advantage.

BJJ may be too young to say competition results settle the question, but my position does have evidence to support it. What is the evidence you are using to support your position?

I don't know who the comment of not having elite-level training and competition experience was directed at, but I have a fair amount of competition experience and my instructor is Samuel Braga, a world champion at every belt level and 2 weight classes at black belt. I am lucky enough to be able to spar with him 6 times a week, so I think I can claim to have access to elite-level training. So I guess you were directing that comment at someone else.

 

[Fedorzilla]

^^

Do you even understand what "mechanical disadvantage" means? If it exists at all, it wouldn't change due to the weight of the competitors. It either does or doesn't exist.

I get a hearty chuckle out of randos on the internet who have no elite-level training or competition experience clearly misunderstanding what Hall was saying and getting all up in arms about it. I'm willing to bet that Ryan isn't losing any sleep over the fact that you disagree.

Arguing that the BJJ scoring system favors the bottom person and as a result there is no "mechanical advantage" to the top has literally nothing to do with Ryan's statement. Moreover, that assertion has nothing to do with the fallacious conclusion drawn from it.

The dissenters here are doing the equivalent of arguing that, "Due to the fact that kicks score higher in Tae Kwon Do than punches do, it's better to hold your hands at your sides and jump up and down when stand-up fighting." Brilliant logic there, Chief.

You're right that the mechanical advantage still exists regardless of points systems. In fact, the only thing in the points system that doesn't reflect mechanical disadvantage is the fact that you can pull guard without giving up points. People are here to discuss things and it's not as if disagreeing means you think you're more knowledgeable or skilled than Hall. I don't want to aggravate this discussion any further, b/c you seem like you're on the verge of a Costanza-esque nervous breakdown, but Ryan did make (at least paraphrased by the interviewer) comments as to the fact that people will eventually only go for takedowns and won't pull guard.

Being on top is key. According to Hall, the guard, as a strategy, is not effective against elite level competition because it puts the bottom fighter at a major mechanical disadvantage. Because of this, Hall believes that the guard will eventually disappear and be replaced by takedowns and top positioning. That​

 

[Jacara]

Here is my take. Just for some short background on me. I did muay thai/ tang soo do when i was 17 to 20 and did a little bit of grappling/submission wrestling in that time but never with Gi. I just recently started gi BJJ in May and I am now 27 years old.

I play top game and top game exclusively. I only use guard to sweep or get back to my knees/stand up. I can count on one hand how many people I have submitted in my guard but just in the last 5 months of BJJ i don't know how many submissions i have from side/top/back mount.

I believe it was Rickson Gracie who said "BJJ is a top game, you only go to your guard when you are in trouble." This is what I follow. I always look to pass guard and/or takedown etc. I have always seen BJJ as a top game and I am technically a newbie but have followed MMA for the last 10 years.

The guard obviously won't go away because it is diametrically opposed to the top game. You can't have one without the other or something like that.

I just say "always try to play top game, when you can't play the sweep or stand up to reset" If the guy is much much bigger/stronger than you always use your speed to play the back. Stay low with a strong base and heavy on your opponent and never ever allow him to play his game. I play my BJJ game by a few simple rules and it has worked quite well so far.

Hope your work on your wrestling alot then. Otherwise anyone with better wrestling then you is going to get on top in competition and if your guard isn't up to snuff... to bad, work on your guard.

I'm sure Rickson Gracie also makes everyone of his students have a kickass guard as well as a good top game. There called fundamentals and beginners, like yourself should learn them.

 

[Kenny from MD]

Mechanical advantage is output force/input. If you are saying a position has a superior mechanical advantage, then that position has a higher ration of output force to input force. I think I have an understanding of what a mechanical advantage is. Proving that one position has a true mechanical advantage over another position would require force measurement. Do you know a way to measure the forces during a BJJ match? If you do please enlighten me cause I am drawing a blank on how someone would do this.

First of all since you are now speaking of this as a science problem,I should point out that your "empirical evidence" is in many cases subjective especially when referring to an advantage and even if you are referring purely to the match outcome, there are so many dependant variables at work that cannot be reproduced that it makes it completely irrelevant to what is being talked about. Although you say you do, your posts show you dont grasp the point at all. That is not an insult either, as I am not smart or articulate enough to explain it. Which is the reason my posts on this forum on these kind of subjects usually end with "come train with Ryan, he will explain and show you better than I ever could."

There are a lot of drills where you can see an obvious mechanical advantage as it relates to the fundamental concepts of jiu jitsu. Ryan uses them as well as metaphorical situations in class all the time to teach them (mobility, leverage, base etc). So in regards to the mechanical advantage, why are you able to have more mobility, create heavier pressure, more force, and expend less energy in doing so from the top position? Because to put it simply, you are taking advantage of the only real constant in jiu jitsu. What is the only variable that cannot be manipulated? Hint: look down.

 

[MickCollins]

I think Ryan had to deal with becoming a black belt and finding out some of his stuff wouldn't work like it had at brown belt against brown belts. Black belts always say that its a whole different ball game at that level. I think the initial culture shock probably sucked for a guy who was used to rollin' people left and right.

 

[anaconda]

Well I don't know about you guys, but I find it a lot more tiring to be in someone's guard trying to pass than trying to keep someone from passing. Passing just seems like more work. Maybe its just because my guard is better than my passing though.

 

[Kenny from MD]

Also since mechanical advantage is output force/input force a ultra heavyweight competitor can exert 230 lbs of force on the bottom player with no input force beyond gravity while a rooster weight competitor can exert 126 lbs of force with on input force beyond gravity. So yes the mechanical advantage would absolutely change according to weight classes.

Also one final thing in regards to this... it really doesn't make any sense. Force in this sense isn't weight, although weight does influences force. When you measure the force of a strike it isn't entirely dependant on the weight on the weight of the object, although that of course influences it. And while certainly lower weights can exert less force, less force is necessary to be exerted because the opponent is also of a lower weight.

In many cases, due to leverage, positioning in itself kind of takes the place of even needing additional input force. For example, put someone on their back, facing you, and pushing into the soles of their feet, try to pin their knees to their chest. A significantly lighter person will most likely be able to keep you from doing so. Now take a significantly heavier person, lay them on their back with their hips to the side (so that both feet are pointed in the same direction). Place one foot on the top knee. Without any effort, they should not be able to move their hips back to face you.

 

[mtruitt76]

First of all since you are now speaking of this as a science problem,I should point out that your "empirical evidence" is in many cases subjective especially when referring to an advantage and even if you are referring purely to the match outcome, there are so many dependant variables at work that cannot be reproduced that it makes it completely irrelevant to what is being talked about. Although you say you do, your posts show you dont grasp the point at all. That is not an insult either, as I am not smart or articulate enough to explain it. Which is the reason my posts on this forum on these kind of subjects usually end with "come train with Ryan, he will explain and show you better than I ever could."

I grasp what a mechanical advantage is. I can thank an ill fated couple of semesters in college as an engineering major for that, but I will take you at your word when you say I don't grasp the point. I have heard this phrase thrown around this forum ever since Ryan made the statement and people have really latched onto the phrase. People seem to embrace it as true, but there does not seem to be a lot explanations as to why it is true, or if there has been I missed it.

 

[Drew Foster]

I think Ryan had to deal with becoming a black belt and finding out some of his stuff wouldn't work like it had at brown belt against brown belts. Black belts always say that its a whole different ball game at that level. I think the initial culture shock probably sucked for a guy who was used to rollin' people left and right.

Maybe, maybe not. One thing is for sure, he didn't stop winning at black belt. That's what he told me about promotions. You don't wanna go so far as sandbagging but if you do sport BJJ seriously, you want to be already at or even above the level you are being promoted to so that you don't get thrashed when you compete at your new level.

If you watched Ryan from blue, to purple, to brown, to black, yes his game changed, but there was never a point where he hit a roadblock in terms of getting his ass kicked. He's still consistently winning and only the best guys like Mendes and Cobrinha, for example, are going to give him problems.

 

[Fedorzilla]

Maybe, maybe not. One thing is for sure, he didn't stop winning at black belt. That's what he told me about promotions. You don't wanna go so far as sandbagging but if you do sport BJJ seriously, you want to be already at or even above the level you are being promoted to so that you don't get thrashed when you compete at your new level.

If you watched Ryan from blue, to purple, to brown, to black, yes his game changed, but there was never a point where he hit a roadblock in terms of getting his ass kicked. He's still consistently winning and only the best guys like Mendes and Cobrinha, for example, are going to give him problems.

Exacty. The kid is just a phenom and I think what you're saying is part of the reason you still see him doing inverted guard and other stuff he's always done at blackbelt. B/c truthfully, when he says that his old game didn't work at the "elite" level, he seriously meant "top couple guys in the world." I believe fighting Cobrinha and Mendes is what caused him to think "I need to evolve." For most of us, we get that sense from getting our asses kicked by purples/browns, but for him to see where he needed to evolve he had to face those freaks. Probably also why his evolution is not entirely observable in many of his matches, because he had 10 tools to beat the average guys at blackbelt before those changes in his game took place. Still, it seems that he has become a much more well-rounded player recently and he's seeking out opportunities to train with guys like Marcelo. Very motivated and very impressive.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

While it is true that gravity is on the side of the top player, you're not free of inherent advantages from your guard either. Your mobility is lower because you're pointing all four of your limbs at your opponent, including the two much, much stronger ones. He has to use his legs at least partly to maintain his base and mobility.