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Ryan Hall doesn't believe in guard or shrimping...

Interesting perspective. Which sport are you at an elite level at that allows you to give this analysis with such a depth of understanding regarding the difference between elite and non-elite?

Unfortunately, for most of us - we will never be an elite at anything, partially because we don't fully understand the mechanics of the sport enough in order to perform them well. Everyone wants to believe that practice makes perfect. But it's not true. Perfect practice makes perfect. And anyone who has trained with sub-elite and then moved on to an elite coach in any sport can tell you that most of the ways you are told to do things at the sub-elite level are more separated from the elite than a small nuance here or there. In fact, quite often you are taught WRONG.

Take wrestling for example. I was speaking with a D-1 assistant wrestling coach the other day. He is responsible for recruiting at one of the colleges near me. He was expressing his frustration at the technical inaccuracies that so called "elite" high school wrestlers come to him with. The coaches have to work with the incoming freshman on a one on one basis almost daily for the entire fall in order to have them ready to participate in actual wrestling practices by the time the season rolls around.

This is because - according to him - they have been taught wrong. According to him, it is rare to find a high school coach willing or capable of teaching the kids correctly. If it was a matter of a small nuance, it wouldn't be difficult for them to "fix" what these high level athletic young men are doing incorrectly. And he's talking about those who were recruited for a D-1 program.

If that is the case with a long historical sport like wrestling...what on earth makes you think it is any different in the equivalent levels of BJJ?


Very well put!

I agree with this whole-heartedly. In my experience with both good competitors and elite competitors the elite guys always have little details that completely change the game whether or not they realize it... Yes, sometimes these elite guys are amazing at doing things, but not so good at analyzing what they're doing. So they'll honestly tell you that they don't do anything special even though they do.

I recently had similar experience with a D1 wrestler in which he basically told me everything I ever learned about wrestling was wrong. He then showed me a few things in just a couple minutes that have helped me dramatically. This is a good example of an elite guy that is good at analyzing his game, and this is what makes the best instructors.

This is also why Ryan Hall was able to put out a DVD set that wiped the floor with many DVD sets put out by much more accomplished and world renown grapplers. Ryan has an amazing ability to analyze details and break them down into words. This is something many great competitors don't learn to do.
 
Just got back from training. I was thinking the thread went downhill pretty fast until this post. If the article inspires at least one person to start crosstraining, then it is a success. You guys focus on the wrong message. It isn't that BJJ is becoming wrestling, or that there is a new secret technique to shrimping. I think the most important message is just that you need to train smart if you want to be at a higher level.

That means crosstraining. You need a balanced game: not an overly bottom-based one. The top is paramount for a reason. However as Barnett showed, you need a good bottom game and good leglocks too. In effect, you need to keep learning to close the holes in your own game for however long you train BJJ.

Let me just specify that deciding to add wrestling to my bjj was done after debating for a long time on the positives and negatives of doing so, and finally opting to go for it.

The article goes right along the reasons why I chose to start, but was read after my decision was made.
 
I just disagree with all of this - I've never had any problems with my ability to shrimp, but maybe it was just taught to me accurately?

How are some other schools teaching it? I wonder what some of the other schools are teaching to make it so bad...
 
Interesting perspective. Which sport are you at an elite level at that allows you to give this analysis with such a depth of understanding regarding the difference between elite and non-elite?

Unfortunately, for most of us - we will never be an elite at anything, partially because we don't fully understand the mechanics of the sport enough in order to perform them well. Everyone wants to believe that practice makes perfect. But it's not true. Perfect practice makes perfect. And anyone who has trained with sub-elite and then moved on to an elite coach in any sport can tell you that most of the ways you are told to do things at the sub-elite level are more separated from the elite than a small nuance here or there. In fact, quite often you are taught WRONG.

Take wrestling for example. I was speaking with a D-1 assistant wrestling coach the other day. He is responsible for recruiting at one of the colleges near me. He was expressing his frustration at the technical inaccuracies that so called "elite" high school wrestlers come to him with. The coaches have to work with the incoming freshman on a one on one basis almost daily for the entire fall in order to have them ready to participate in actual wrestling practices by the time the season rolls around.

This is because - according to him - they have been taught wrong. According to him, it is rare to find a high school coach willing or capable of teaching the kids correctly. If it was a matter of a small nuance, it wouldn't be difficult for them to "fix" what these high level athletic young men are doing incorrectly. And he's talking about those who were recruited for a D-1 program.

If that is the case with a long historical sport like wrestling...what on earth makes you think it is any different in the equivalent levels of BJJ?

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me and trying to call me out - I honestly can't tell? In any event, I wrestled in college, have wrestled with national champions, and I've seen the that sometimes the difference between good and great is a matter of explicit technical proficiency, other times it's a matter of intuitive factors in execution, and still other times it's simply a matter of physical ability, confidence, and attitude.

Sometimes there are real holes in a person's technique that are holding them back, while other times there are no large holes, only a deficit in overall feel for a move or position. Some people just have an intuitive understandings of certain positions and moves that make their timing and execution far more effective. These nuances can't always be taught either, because they often rely on split second decision making and an overall feel for bodies in motion that is difficult to verbalize and even harder to demonstrate. Some people are really strong from positions that others are off balance or weak in due to actual differences in neuroanatomy (specific differences cerebellar development and function has been demonstrated in major league pitchers, for example). And some people are just explosive, strong, flexible, quick, coordinated, while still others are just absolutely tenacious, and refuse to be denied (a very powerful attribute in the right hands).

Bottom line is that there are ceilings - whether they're due to obvious physical attributes, due to personality types, due to the way a body is wired, or due to less obvious intuitive abilities pertaining to a feel for the movements and coordination required in a particular sport. Anyone who has ever coached (and especially coached beginners) knows this, and to deny the existence of ceilings is to deny reality. So, while we often hope that we're only one or two discrete 'tricks of the trade' away from being really great at a certain move, position or sport, the reality is that the difference between being good and being truly elite is sometimes not just a matter of explicit nuances and is sometimes also a matter of overall aptitude.

Now, I'm not trying to claim that Ryan Hall has reached his ceiling, I'm merely bringing up the obvious possibility that the difference between the way Roger Gracie hits his side control escapes and the way some other experienced black belt of lesser repute does may not be a matter of an specific trick of the trade. They may both be doing very similar things when trying to escape, and we would be remiss for ignoring the possibility that Roger Gracie is more successful because of certain things that cannot necessarily be taught.
 
OK, I have revd a few emails complaining about me, my website and my author miss-quoting Ryan Hall, so I want to put this issue to rest.

First of all, the interview was published on my site before Ryan got to look at it, once he saw it, he wanted to make a few changes to it, so we obliged him.

I posted the link to the article on here and on the underground, because I thought it was a great thought provoking article. I love to watch Ryan compete and respect his skills and his opinion highly.

But when he edited the article he changed his quote, so now I look like I am making up the statement.

I can't speak for Ryan, but I think he made the comment to grab our attention, which he did.

Ryan didn't change much to the original interview, just wanted to get rid of some people's names that were said.

Ryan was very gracious to my author (Marshal), gave us a great interview, and even showed Marshal some of his "new" non shrimping stuff, Marshal told me that it blew his mind away, and was promptly making plans to go train with him, that's how impressed with Ryan he was. That's what the oringinal intent of the interview was, to share Ryan and his revolutionary game with the community.

I wont post the entire interview out of respect for him. But, I also don't want myself, my site, or my author to be accused of making anything up, so here is the audio of that statement:

YouTube - hall2
 
Good points.

I think some people loose sight of what the "guard" is. The way I was taught is that it is "the best of the worst positions". I have always been a top player. I work hard on my gaurd to that I can still win a fight against a larger opponet or a superior wrestler wqho puts me on my back.

At the same time, the guard is still an important position because unlike tournaments you wont alwayws go against someone you size.

This the way I was taught as well. That the guard is necessary to learn for situations where you have the strength disadvantage. But, you should always take top position when available.
 
Im going to pose a simple question to you.

If someone is more comfortable being on the bottom, and finds its a more successful position for them, why would they want to force themselves to be a top player, because "other people say its the best place to be"?

Playing bottom position is a tactic, and one that takes a lot of skill to master. Saying that everyone should be looking for top position regardless of their style is like saying the NFL shouldnt have defensive lines as they are pointless, and because the offensive players are the ones that win you games by scoring points. (Excuse the bad example, i tried to think of a sport example which would make the most sense to most people on the board, therefore a US example). Or in an Ice Hockey match, pulling your goalie from the start because you want more players taking shots.

In short, different players play different positions, its the way it is now, and its the way it will stay.
Thats the great thing about BJJ, everyones style is different, and if you chose to you could become lethal from a "defensive" position. You never know whats coming and you never know how 100% of your opponents will react.

When I started training, I came from a mindset of being on top, my instructor worked with me alot on getting and maintaining top position. That's what I've spent more time on, that's become and has been my strength.

If your instructor emphasizes working on your back, if you start from the idea that working from your back is your focus, I think you will progress the opposite.

It depends on the person, as to which you prefer. But I think we are all more inclined to progress in the direction we are guided.
 
I just disagree with all of this - I've never had any problems with my ability to shrimp, but maybe it was just taught to me accurately?

How are some other schools teaching it? I wonder what some of the other schools are teaching to make it so bad...

Did you read the entire interview on lockflow? Have you ever tried your shrimping hip escape on a solid purple or brown belt from underneath side control? (If you are a purple or brown I apologize)
 
Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me and trying to call me out - I honestly can't tell? In any event, I wrestled in college, have wrestled with national champions, and I've seen the that sometimes the difference between good and great is a matter of explicit technical proficiency, other times it's a matter of intuitive factors in execution, and still other times it's simply a matter of physical ability, confidence, and attitude.

Sometimes there are real holes in a person's technique that are holding them back, while other times there are no large holes, only a deficit in overall feel for a move or position. Some people just have an intuitive understandings of certain positions and moves that make their timing and execution far more effective. These nuances can't always be taught either, because they often rely on split second decision making and an overall feel for bodies in motion that is difficult to verbalize and even harder to demonstrate. Some people are really strong from positions that others are off balance or weak in due to actual differences in neuroanatomy (specific differences cerebellar development and function has been demonstrated in major league pitchers, for example). And some people are just explosive, strong, flexible, quick, coordinated, while still others are just absolutely tenacious, and refuse to be denied (a very powerful attribute in the right hands).

Bottom line is that there are ceilings - whether they're due to obvious physical attributes, due to personality types, due to the way a body is wired, or due to less obvious intuitive abilities pertaining to a feel for the movements and coordination required in a particular sport. Anyone who has ever coached (and especially coached beginners) knows this, and to deny the existence of ceilings is to deny reality. So, while we often hope that we're only one or two discrete 'tricks of the trade' away from being really great at a certain move, position or sport, the reality is that the difference between being good and being truly elite is sometimes not just a matter of explicit nuances and is sometimes also a matter of overall aptitude.

Now, I'm not trying to claim that Ryan Hall has reached his ceiling, I'm merely bringing up the obvious possibility that the difference between the way Roger Gracie hits his side control escapes and the way some other experienced black belt of lesser repute does may not be a matter of an specific trick of the trade. They may both be doing very similar things when trying to escape, and we would be remiss for ignoring the possibility that Roger Gracie is more successful because of certain things that cannot necessarily be taught.

This "body wiring" or "feel for movement of bodies in motion" can be described at kinesthetic learning or awareness. It's actually very interesting. You may know this already, but just like some people learn visually, etc. Some people are just better with muscle memory, awareness, and have a keener sense of where their bodies need to be to make things work.

Kinesthetic learning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
This "body wiring" or "feel for movement of bodies in motion" can be described at kinesthetic learning or awareness. It's actually very interesting. You may know this already, but just like some people learn visually, etc. Some people are just better with muscle memory, awareness, and have a keener sense of where their bodies need to be to make things work.

Kinesthetic learning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is actually a subject I've been heavily researching. Instead of studying for a Stats midterm. -__-.
 
I've learned from somebody who attended the Rickson seminar a couple of details about mount upa escape, armbar from mount and posture in closed guard. The shrimp was never discussed though but I'll try to find out.
 
Its an interesting article but like many other posters said its nothing new and it doesnt change my perspective at all (Im a guard player mostly, but I will try to sub or sweep from there to get on top). Saulo said the exact same thing in his book JJ University. He think that with equal techniques the player on top should have the advantage and I dont disagree with it.

That said I hate when someone say some technique or position isnt good AND doest offer an alternative or even worse say there is better option but doesnt disclose it...thats pretty lame to me, if you dont want to tell it, then dont even HINT at it in the 1st place. At least Saulo offer alternative to move he think doesnt work at high lvl. it does look like some kind of marketing to me...
 
Of course we are all seemingly forgetting that roger gracie has been doing bjj since he was probably 3 or 4 years old taking private lessons from one of the best black belts around, his own father. I think that's probably got more to do with him being 'great' than genetics or whatever.
 
Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me and trying to call me out - I honestly can't tell? In any event, I wrestled in college, have wrestled with national champions, and I've seen the that sometimes the difference between good and great is a matter of explicit technical proficiency, other times it's a matter of intuitive factors in execution, and still other times it's simply a matter of physical ability, confidence, and attitude.

Sometimes there are real holes in a person's technique that are holding them back, while other times there are no large holes, only a deficit in overall feel for a move or position. Some people just have an intuitive understandings of certain positions and moves that make their timing and execution far more effective. These nuances can't always be taught either, because they often rely on split second decision making and an overall feel for bodies in motion that is difficult to verbalize and even harder to demonstrate. Some people are really strong from positions that others are off balance or weak in due to actual differences in neuroanatomy (specific differences cerebellar development and function has been demonstrated in major league pitchers, for example). And some people are just explosive, strong, flexible, quick, coordinated, while still others are just absolutely tenacious, and refuse to be denied (a very powerful attribute in the right hands).

Bottom line is that there are ceilings - whether they're due to obvious physical attributes, due to personality types, due to the way a body is wired, or due to less obvious intuitive abilities pertaining to a feel for the movements and coordination required in a particular sport. Anyone who has ever coached (and especially coached beginners) knows this, and to deny the existence of ceilings is to deny reality. So, while we often hope that we're only one or two discrete 'tricks of the trade' away from being really great at a certain move, position or sport, the reality is that the difference between being good and being truly elite is sometimes not just a matter of explicit nuances and is sometimes also a matter of overall aptitude.

Jesus christ that was articulate as shit.
 
I just disagree with all of this - I've never had any problems with my ability to shrimp, but maybe it was just taught to me accurately?

How are some other schools teaching it? I wonder what some of the other schools are teaching to make it so bad...

I don't have any problems with my ability to shrimp either, but against brown and black belts it doesn't get me out of side control.

I mostly agree with Ryan on the whole notion of shrimping. I am sure the high level guys have details that makes their shrimping more effective, but I don't think any type of shrimping is going to be very effective against an elite player who has you in side control. This not because shrimping is garbage, but because when you are in bottom side control you are at such a strategic disadvantage that nothing is going to be overly effective against an elite player.

The top player in side control has almost complete freedom of their hips and a myriad of ways to counter and control your hips. Top side control affords the top man a great deal of mobility, angles, and options.

Really there are no high percentage options from bottom side control. I don't think people should give up on shrimping from bottom side, just don't think it is some high percentage move. Just take it for what it is worth, one of your few options from a bad position.
 
well I haven't read this whole thread

Has anybody made the connection between Ryan hAll making this change to his gmae and him being beaten by sherdogs own Hayliks? Hayliks was a wreslting stud IIRC :P
 
"
From: ryanhall
Posted: 1 day ago
Member Since: 4/9/03
Posts: 58

Woah. It is definitely not my idea and I haven't come up with anything revolutionary.

I learned it from a seminar taught by a mythical creature known as Rickson Gracie. To squash the rumor now, I will definitely not be taking someone else's work, renaming it, and putting it on my own DVD. I really don't need Kron showing up at my house to punch me in the face."
 
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