Ryan Hall doesn't believe in guard or shrimping...

[Art Vandelay]

I once saw Ryan Hall treat a new guy (nogi, but obvious) like a surfboard for 10 minutes, which appeared to make him change his mind about the submission game, and fade into Bolivia. So the guy is obviously the devil.

Man, bluebook jokes. Sleep deprivation is a mofo.

Also, I was bothered when it occurred. I sat in the middle of the floor, as close to the action as possible--being that guy. Just wanted to see how long I could stay alive. Didn't get the chance, but some other guy who had no idea what was up did.

 

[thegreenblender]

I once saw Ryan Hall treat a new guy (nogi, but obvious) like a surfboard for 10 minutes, which appeared to make him change his mind about the submission game, and fade into Bolivia. So the guy is obviously the devil.

Man, bluebook jokes. Sleep deprivation is a mofo.

Also, I was bothered when it occurred. I sat in the middle of the floor, as close to the action as possible--being that guy. Just wanted to see how long I could stay alive. Didn't get the chance, but some other guy who had no idea what was up did.

That's a great post, but I had no idea what you are talking about. It only takes a tad off the greatness, though.

 

[anaconda]

Chaining debate aside the shrimp is such a vital tech in BJJ it seems like just a marketing ploy for Ryan to call it garbage. Lets see this super shrimp he invented.

Next class make it a goal to let people get you in side control and then try to escape without shrimping aka hip escaping in anyway and let us know how that works for you.

apparently, the shrimp is similar to what rickson showed at his big seminar to correct the black belts there. I don't think its a big secret personally. I think anyone who is good probably shrimps like that anyway.

And damn, ppl, hes not saying shrimping is the worst thing ever - hes saying that shrimping the way most ppl drill shrimping is wrong.

 

[ohmalley]

His gameplan was tight even if he was still drunk, lol. he damn near won the match with the sweep at the beginning of the points section, but Ryan took a page out of Glover's book with the flying monkey back take and just barely got the points before time was up for the win. Epic match :icon_chee

do you happen to have a link to these matches, particularly the one you describe above? i'd love to see them. i tried googling their names together but didn't have much luck (or just searched the wrong links).

thanks!

 

[FWTG]

apparently, the shrimp is similar to what rickson showed at his big seminar to correct the black belts there. I don't think its a big secret personally. I think anyone who is good probably shrimps like that anyway.

And damn, ppl, hes not saying shrimping is the worst thing ever - hes saying that shrimping the way most ppl drill shrimping is wrong.

Is this shrimp anywhere on video?

 

[potatosteak]

I wonder how old Ryan Hall is. He looks relatively young.

I know that after close to 3 years of BJJ training that I am probably a good example of what Ryan thinks is wrong with BJJ. I am WAY too comfortable on the bottom, and it works against me because when my guard game gets stuffed, I get passed and I typically lose from there.

I am trying to be more aggressive with my clinch game, trying to be less willing to pull guard. But here's the thing: I am 38 years old and 135 pounds. My lower back is not what it used to be and my body does not recover from injury the way it used to. Nearly everyone at the gym is heavier than I am. Pulling guard is a technique I am comfortable with for a very good reason: I am trying to avoid injury!! Meeting heavier opponents in a clinch game can stress my back badly. Takedowns are a huge potential source for injury, so I rarely practice them. Sure, I'd love to be on top and ride a guy, and when I get the opportunity I do my best. But getting on top in the first place can be a huge challenge for someone who is wary of explosive power, whether using it or having it used on him.

Isn't this the beauty of BJJ? By recognizing my limitations it opened up another universe of possibilities: I can't fight too aggressively for top position, but by redefining the bottom position as a perfectly acceptable alternative it still allows me to pursue a combat/grappling sport. If I approached grappling as a pure wrestler and eschewed the bottom as a possibility then I would have very few options. BJJ posits another possibility: I can avoid injury, ease into guard or half guard, and still win a grappling contest. I know it's not enough to win on a high competition level, but that's where the vast majority of BJJ practitioners are and will forever be.

I used to think like that...to be so comfy in the bottom. Granted, I have only been training for 2 months gi, but wrestling/no gi for 2+ years. Nowadays though, I find I am allergic to being on the bottom, not scared of it. Now, I always fight to secure a sweep from the bottom instead of attacking/submitting from guard. Im a small guy at 150 lbs. and I prefer attacking from the top now, passing guard, getting mount, keeping up pressure and grinding down opponents and either a simple cross choke or armbar if it's no gi.

As for the takedowns tiger?mantis, I've seen older wrestlers that rely on the technical aspects of it as they get older (i.e. ankle picks, inside leg trips, the like that younger wrestlers kinda find harder to pull off).

 

[thegreenblender]

apparently, the shrimp is similar to what rickson showed at his big seminar to correct the black belts there. I don't think its a big secret personally. I think anyone who is good probably shrimps like that anyway.

And damn, ppl, hes not saying shrimping is the worst thing ever - hes saying that shrimping the way most ppl drill shrimping is wrong.

oh my gawd, someone just take 5 minutes and describe the damn thing....even if it's not pulitzer winning material.

 

[redaxe]

oh my gawd, someone just take 5 minutes and describe the damn thing....even if it's not pulitzer winning material.

lol i think they're all just enjoying imagining you squirm with anticipation for the secret shrimp technique.

 

[Combatchaz**]

Thanks for all the replies, Im glad you all found this interview to be as thought provoking as I did....

 

[Gumbi_guard]

Hmmmm. Thought provoking indeed. Especially since I just finished a 3 hour seminar on Saturday with lovato and almost every technique we dId involved hip escape movements (shrimping)

Is lovato elite? I've heard he's pretty good

 

[mtruitt76]

A. If you read the unabbridged interview, Ryan Hall never advocated NOT ever playing or training the guard.

B. In fact, one of his students in this thread said that he made them all train the guard exclusively for a month because they were lacking guard skill.

C. What level does Ryan have to reach before people take his opinions seriously? He placed 3rd at this year's ADCC. Ryan is one of the 3 best American JJ practitioners. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that wouldn't put Ryan in the top 3 along with Jeff Glover. The third pick would change based on who you talk to, but most people who follow the sport unanimously agree that Glover and Hall are 2 of the top 3 American guys out there. Here are his credentials:

I read the unabbridge interview. Ryan said the guard was not an optimal strategy and indicated that bjj my evolve beyond it to some degree where take downs and top game dominate.

My point was the guard is a central part of many top bjj players game. People when world championships with a guard centric strategy. Also of the 3 guys you list 2 are known primarily for their guards and Roger Gracie is arguably the best closed guard player in the game.

You can win with a take down and top game strategy, both Riberio brothers employ this style, but by the same token you can win with a guard centric strategy.

I just don't see the evidence to back up the claims made by Ryan BJJ does evolve, but I believe there is more evidence to support a more varied guard games than a mass movement to a take down and top game style.

Also I am not trying to say that Ryan is not good, but he only has one high level noteworthy accomplishment which is his ADCC finish. Accomplishments at purple belt are to be commended, but they don't make you an elite player. Until he proves himself more I just find it odd that people would fundamentally change their views on BJJ based on anything he says.

 

[mtruitt76]

Hmmmm. Thought provoking indeed. Especially since I just finished a 3 hour seminar on Saturday with lovato and almost every technique we dId involved hip escape movements (shrimping)

Is lovato elite? I've heard he's pretty good

He is more elite than Hall.

 

[Shemhazai]

Also I am not trying to say that Ryan is not good, but he only has one high level noteworthy accomplishment which is his ADCC finish. Accomplishments at purple belt are to be commended, but they don't make you an elite player. Until he proves himself more I just find it odd that people would fundamentally change their views on BJJ based on anything he says.

His accomplishments at purple belt involve submitting numerous black belts in (no gi) competition. If I'm not mistaken, he was doing that as a blue belt too.

 

[knoxpk]

I read the unabbridge interview. Ryan said the guard was not an optimal strategy and indicated that bjj my evolve beyond it to some degree where take downs and top game dominate.

My point was the guard is a central part of many top bjj players game. People when world championships with a guard centric strategy. Also of the 3 guys you list 2 are known primarily for their guards and Roger Gracie is arguably the best closed guard player in the game.

You can win with a take down and top game strategy, both Riberio brothers employ this style, but by the same token you can win with a guard centric strategy.

I just don't see the evidence to back up the claims made by Ryan BJJ does evolve, but I believe there is more evidence to support a more varied guard games than a mass movement to a take down and top game style.

Also I am not trying to say that Ryan is not good, but he only has one high level noteworthy accomplishment which is his ADCC finish. Accomplishments at purple belt are to be commended, but they don't make you an elite player. Until he proves himself more I just find it odd that people would fundamentally change their views on BJJ based on anything he says.

Are we talking strictly grappling or are we talking MMA too?

1st I agree with Ryan. I have kept quiet to this point b/c I have some "enemies" so to speak on this board and had I started this thread it wouldhave been shut down pretty quick.

I digress....


Ryan Hall is a famous, elite competitor. He has been out there doing this against the best there are. He is entitled to his opinion.

But even without his opinion the trend was slowly coming anyway.

I knew it would surface 1st in MMA. WHY? Well in MMA the punishment for NOT sweeping or submitting at the very least a loss in a judges decision and at worse a serious beat down.

What the guard has is a technical advantage due to training in that position. That technical advantage has been countered by others own technical advantages AND the inherent mechanical advantage that being on top provides.

Well in grappling only the punishment for being on bottom is not as severe. Worst case scenario, you lose by points or sub,,your teeth stay in tact, usually.

However, as Ryan pointed out the technical advantage of his guard game is starting to be neutralized by his opponents strong technical top game AND leverage based on gravity.

When things start to even out and technique begins to arrive close to the same level the mechanical advantages of the top player start to show themselves.

You provided several good examples of guard players and I am sure that there will continue to be great guard players winning in grappling. But that does not mean that Ryan is wrong, there is an inherent advantage to being a good grappler and being on top.

Please note I prefaced that last comment by stating you have to be a good grappler 1st, be on top 2nd. Being a good grappler would INCLUDE having a good guard game and INCLUDE being able to stifle the guard. It would INCLUDE having a good top game and yes ladies and gentlemen it would include having a good takedown and takedown defense game.

 

[FLoWitheGo**]

This is basically what I consider shrimping. Don't know how much of a difference what Rickson and Hall is but if it makes that much of a visible difference in your game I'd be interested.
YouTube - Shrimping Top Leg

 

[vicodin]

I can't believe this is still going...
The original concept of Gracie JJ is to takedown, control, mount, & finish...Rorian,Royce, Royler, Relson, etc continue to teach by this logic to this day.... This is by no means a 'break through' moment. I guess for Ryan it is...

As for the shrimping comment, I can agree with it to a point. I do sometimes have more success with "knee to floor,foot to sky/knee to elbow" rather than hard shrimping out...

 

[jerryseinfeld]

I can't believe this is still going...
The original concept of Gracie JJ is to takedown, control, mount, & finish...Rorian,Royce, Royler, Relson, etc continue to teach by this logic to this day.... This is by no means a 'break through' moment. I guess for Ryan it is...

As for the shrimping comment, I can agree with it to a point. I do sometimes have more success with "knee to floor,foot to sky/knee to elbow" rather than hard shrimping out...

In the street yeah that makes sense as the guard is purely a defensive position, in sport bjj the dynamic is totally different. Besides if the gracies were so big on takedowns and top control why was their wrestling so bad?

 

[AboveThisFire]

The guard is dead, long live the guard.

 

[Neu!]

Forget shrimping, it's all about seahorsing now

 

[Deleted member 128221]

In the street yeah that makes sense as the guard is purely a defensive position, in sport bjj the dynamic is totally different. Besides if the gracies were so big on takedowns and top control why was their wrestling so bad?

It's true, and if their game is fundamentally based why would one of them turn down a chance to wrestle for Stanford? And is this how Royce won most of his matches in the UFC?

But this is all very strange and interesting. I have never seen Hall on top. Ever. At ADCC he was always using his guard and even in his match against Alex Lewis which he lost I don't remember him ever being on top or trying to stand up.

Well, I study MAs with the finality of fighting and though I like Hall's style no one should want to be on the bottom in an MMA fight. It's like when Hall says something like "if someone like Roger has been on top of you, you don't want to willingly pull guard." Why do you think the gracies disappeared from MMA? Why do you think Roger keeps dodging MMA fights? He knows the MAs have evolved so much that sport BJJ is something entirely different. Apparently this is a breakthrough to Hall but it's not a breakthrough to Emelianenko, GSP, Penn, or Machida.

You don't want Emelianenko on top of you because you're probably just going to get raped and there isn't going to be a cross collar bow tie gi choke.