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Ryan Hall doesn't believe in guard or shrimping...

I forgot where or when it was, but Royce Gracie even said (around the time of the first few UFCs), that being on top was the better position. Spectators were commenting that Royce liked being on his back, he responded that this wasn't true because it's still a worse position to be on the bottom, he just has to fight from there because bigger, stronger guys will put him there.

I didn't quote anything because this is all from memory.
 
Hmmmm. Thought provoking indeed. Especially since I just finished a 3 hour seminar on Saturday with lovato and almost every technique we dId involved hip escape movements (shrimping)

Is lovato elite? I've heard he's pretty good ;)

This highlights the problem of different definitions of shrimping. Is shrimping a specific warmup exercise or is it simply getting your hips into the place you want them to when somebody is on top of you?

I have converted to how Lovato's current coach Saulo teaches escapes from the bottom and he really shows how your shrimping motion doesn't need to be powerful the most important part is getting your body in the right position then the shrimping is easy.
 
I read the wholearticle and I felt like it was messing with my mind when I was rolling last night. "I've got the mount! Now remember - don't armbar him..."
 
So what's this Rickson shrimp everyone keeps talking about? Hot and spicy?

Really, anyone got a link with pics or video?
 
I read the wholearticle and I felt like it was messing with my mind when I was rolling last night. "I've got the mount! Now remember - don't armbar him..."

haha I had the opposite effect . . . during yesterday's class I was consciously thinking "TOP TOP TOP" which in turn made me aggressively try to get out of guard and side control . . .

I'm one of those guys who are a little too complacent on their backs, so it was a nice little reminder even though what Hall said was not necessarily revolutionary.
 
It's true, and if their game is fundamentally based why would one of them turn down a chance to wrestle for Stanford? And is this how Royce won most of his matches in the UFC?
But this is all very strange and interesting. I have never seen Hall on top. Ever. At ADCC he was always using his guard and even in his match against Alex Lewis which he lost I don't remember him ever being on top or trying to stand up.

Well, I study MAs with the finality of fighting and though I like Hall's style no one should want to be on the bottom in an MMA fight. It's like when Hall says something like "if someone like Roger has been on top of you, you don't want to willingly pull guard." Why do you think the gracies disappeared from MMA? Why do you think Roger keeps dodging MMA fights? He knows the MAs have evolved so much that sport BJJ is something entirely different. Apparently this is a breakthrough to Hall but it's not a breakthrough to Emelianenko, GSP, Penn, or Machida.

You don't want Emelianenko on top of you because you're probably just going to get raped and there isn't going to be a cross collar bow tie gi choke.

Interestingly the Stanford Scholarship I think was proven to be a myth. In fact we cannot even find proof that Ryan(i think it was) ever even qualified for state let alone was offered a scholarship to a Div I school in wrestling.

To be fair to the gracies their takedown ability may not have been on par with a wrestler or judoka but they easily took everyone else down.

Heck even in his 1st fight with shammy Royce used a sprawl to fight off the shot didnt he?

So while the gracies themselves did not have the best takedowns they were better than most. On top of that everyone was clueless about the guard, so those they could not takedown the submitted due to ignorance.

Even early on guys figured out how to at the least stall out the guard. Unfortunately for him one of the best BJJ guys ever was the vicitm not once but twice. Mark Kerr stalled out Fabio Gurgel guard and before you start yelling "size size" remember Jerry Bohlander did the same thing to Gurgel in the UFC.

I will grant you that the sport side is more forgiving in this regard per se but isnt the sport style just a way to test your abilities? I am sure there are those that are just taking the style to become the next ADCC champ but I think the masses are looking at it differently.

You seem to be agreeing with the point of this thread so I will leave it at that.
 
This highlights the problem of different definitions of shrimping. Is shrimping a specific warmup exercise or is it simply getting your hips into the place you want them to when somebody is on top of you?

I have converted to how Lovato's current coach Saulo teaches escapes from the bottom and he really shows how your shrimping motion doesn't need to be powerful the most important part is getting your body in the right position then the shrimping is easy.

Shrimping ain't easy, but it sure is fun ;)
couldn't resist.
No I agree. It's not a forceful thing but a "proper position" thing. I think the definition of shrimping is SO general.
 
So what's this Rickson shrimp everyone keeps talking about? Hot and spicy?

Really, anyone got a link with pics or video?

It's just a hoax. everyone knows Rickson has never needed to shrimp
 
No offense to Ryan (who is right about almost everything he said in his interview), but there doesn't actually have to be something dramatically different about the way world champions do moves. Better athletes with better timing do things more effectively. Sure, there may be slight personal nuances in terms of hand/forearm positioning, or a rhythm of back and forth movements to shift weight and set things up while trying to shrimp on bottom etc, but generally speaking, they're doing the same move that experienced hobbyists and seasoned competitors who aren't quite at the top level do, they're just doing it with more success. They recognize the time to strike better, hit the move harder, commit to it with confidence, and do it technically correct. It really can be and often is just that simple.

Lots of people image that there is some secret trick or tactic when they hit their ceiling at something only to look up and see others surpassing them, but sometimes, it just comes down to other people being better, whether due to innate ability or overall depth of experience. It's easier for a proud person to think there's some discrete learnable thing they're missing, and if they could only discover it, that they could quickly rise to the top too. It's much harder to come to terms with the fact that you just might not be as good, no matter what you do. I'm not saying this is the case here, but I think it's a very real possibility that is being ignored because it's unpleasant to think about.
 
Can someone post an example of the new way to Shrimp?

I really would tell you, but the truth is you don't have permission to know.

You see, there is a small group of highly trained evil monks who do two things. Eat babies, and kill all those who learn the forbidden shrimp without consent. Ryan Hall is lucky that he hasn't had his head knocked off by an invisible roundhouse kick yet. You know the monks are after him.

Seriously, do all of you people clamoring to know this move really want to be looking over your shoulders all the time? Seriously, the second you learn the technique you'd be living out the movie final destination.
 
No offense to Ryan (who is right about almost everything he said in his interview), but there doesn't actually have to be something dramatically different about the way world champions do moves. Better athletes with better timing do things more effectively. Sure, there may be slight personal nuances in terms of hand/forearm positioning, or a rhythm of back and forth movements to shift weight and set things up while trying to shrimp on bottom etc, but generally speaking, they're doing the same move that experienced hobbyists and seasoned competitors who aren't quite at the top level do, they're just doing it with more success. They recognize the time to strike better, hit the move harder, commit to it with confidence, and do it technically correct. It really can be and often is just that simple.

Lots of people image that there is some secret trick or tactic when they hit their ceiling at something only to look up and see others surpassing them, but sometimes, it just comes down to other people being better, whether due to innate ability or overall depth of experience. It's easier for a proud person to think there's some discrete learnable thing they're missing, and if they could only discover it, that they could quickly rise to the top too. It's much harder to come to terms with the fact that you just might not be as good, no matter what you do. I'm not saying this is the case here, but I think it's a very real possibility that is being ignored because it's unpleasant to think about.

Whatever the case, I think it's cool that guys like Ryan Hall are trying to analyze the game further. I think only good things can come of it.
 
Whatever the case, I think it's cool that guys like Ryan Hall are trying to analyze the game further. I think only good things can come of it.

No doubt about that. Just putting forward that one unspoken, unpleasant alternative possibility that no young, competitive person likes to consider. For what it's worth, I hope he's right, he figures it out, and releases a DVD.
 
I read the unabbridge interview. Ryan said the guard was not an optimal strategy and indicated that bjj my evolve beyond it to some degree where take downs and top game dominate.

My point was the guard is a central part of many top bjj players game. People when world championships with a guard centric strategy. Also of the 3 guys you list 2 are known primarily for their guards and Roger Gracie is arguably the best closed guard player in the game.

You can win with a take down and top game strategy, both Riberio brothers employ this style, but by the same token you can win with a guard centric strategy.

I just don't see the evidence to back up the claims made by Ryan BJJ does evolve, but I believe there is more evidence to support a more varied guard games than a mass movement to a take down and top game style.

Also I am not trying to say that Ryan is not good, but he only has one high level noteworthy accomplishment which is his ADCC finish. Accomplishments at purple belt are to be commended, but they don't make you an elite player. Until he proves himself more I just find it odd that people would fundamentally change their views on BJJ based on anything he says.

What Jeff Glover is great at, and what people "think" is his area of specialization are two different things. If you watch 10 Glover matches, you actually won't see him on his back very much at all. I assume you meant Glover is known for his half guard, and he is, to an extent, but he is never in deep half for more than 5 seconds 9/10 times.

Glover is much more of a top/back player than a guard player. Most of Jeff's subs are RNCs and Darces. If he does submit people from the bottom, it's generally not because he was trying to be on the bottom. Jeff is almost always working for the back.
 
I agree with a good deal of what he said there. However, I think a threatening guard is very important due to the fact that sometimes, you're just going to deal with a damn good wrestler. If you can't get on top, you'd better be able to finish from on bottom.

In other words, be well rounded.

I am very curious what his "alternative" or "technical redesign" of the shrimp is.
 
No offense to Ryan (who is right about almost everything he said in his interview), but there doesn't actually have to be something dramatically different about the way world champions do moves. Better athletes with better timing do things more effectively. Sure, there may be slight personal nuances in terms of hand/forearm positioning, or a rhythm of back and forth movements to shift weight and set things up while trying to shrimp on bottom etc, but generally speaking, they're doing the same move that experienced hobbyists and seasoned competitors who aren't quite at the top level do, they're just doing it with more success. They recognize the time to strike better, hit the move harder, commit to it with confidence, and do it technically correct. It really can be and often is just that simple.

Lots of people image that there is some secret trick or tactic when they hit their ceiling at something only to look up and see others surpassing them, but sometimes, it just comes down to other people being better, whether due to innate ability or overall depth of experience. It's easier for a proud person to think there's some discrete learnable thing they're missing, and if they could only discover it, that they could quickly rise to the top too. It's much harder to come to terms with the fact that you just might not be as good, no matter what you do. I'm not saying this is the case here, but I think it's a very real possibility that is being ignored because it's unpleasant to think about.

Interesting perspective. Which sport are you at an elite level at that allows you to give this analysis with such a depth of understanding regarding the difference between elite and non-elite?

Unfortunately, for most of us - we will never be an elite at anything, partially because we don't fully understand the mechanics of the sport enough in order to perform them well. Everyone wants to believe that practice makes perfect. But it's not true. Perfect practice makes perfect. And anyone who has trained with sub-elite and then moved on to an elite coach in any sport can tell you that most of the ways you are told to do things at the sub-elite level are more separated from the elite than a small nuance here or there. In fact, quite often you are taught WRONG.

Take wrestling for example. I was speaking with a D-1 assistant wrestling coach the other day. He is responsible for recruiting at one of the colleges near me. He was expressing his frustration at the technical inaccuracies that so called "elite" high school wrestlers come to him with. The coaches have to work with the incoming freshman on a one on one basis almost daily for the entire fall in order to have them ready to participate in actual wrestling practices by the time the season rolls around.

This is because - according to him - they have been taught wrong. According to him, it is rare to find a high school coach willing or capable of teaching the kids correctly. If it was a matter of a small nuance, it wouldn't be difficult for them to "fix" what these high level athletic young men are doing incorrectly. And he's talking about those who were recruited for a D-1 program.

If that is the case with a long historical sport like wrestling...what on earth makes you think it is any different in the equivalent levels of BJJ?
 
Interesting perspective. Which sport are you at an elite level at that allows you to give this analysis with such a depth of understanding regarding the difference between elite and non-elite?

Unfortunately, for most of us - we will never be an elite at anything, partially because we don't fully understand the mechanics of the sport enough in order to perform them well. Everyone wants to believe that practice makes perfect. But it's not true. Perfect practice makes perfect. And anyone who has trained with sub-elite and then moved on to an elite coach in any sport can tell you that most of the ways you are told to do things at the sub-elite level are more separated from the elite than a small nuance here or there. In fact, quite often you are taught WRONG.

Take wrestling for example. I was speaking with a D-1 assistant wrestling coach the other day. He is responsible for recruiting at one of the colleges near me. He was expressing his frustration at the technical inaccuracies that so called "elite" high school wrestlers come to him with. The coaches have to work with the incoming freshman on a one on one basis almost daily for the entire fall in order to have them ready to participate in actual wrestling practices by the time the season rolls around.

This is because - according to him - they have been taught wrong. According to him, it is rare to find a high school coach willing or capable of teaching the kids correctly. If it was a matter of a small nuance, it wouldn't be difficult for them to "fix" what these high level athletic young men are doing incorrectly. And he's talking about those who were recruited for a D-1 program.

If that is the case with a long historical sport like wrestling...what on earth makes you think it is any different in the equivalent levels of BJJ?

Very well put my fren.
 
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