Ryan Hall doesn't believe in guard or shrimping...

[Drew Foster]

What is strange though is that none those guys are advocating not playing the guard. In fact each one of them excellent guard players who have won many matches using the guard against the best bjj players in their weight classes.

I don't really get why people are giving so much weight to Ryan's opinion. Yes he is a very good grappler, but he is yet to the level where someone should change their view of bjj based on what he says.

A. If you read the unabbridged interview, Ryan Hall never advocated NOT ever playing or training the guard.

B. In fact, one of his students in this thread said that he made them all train the guard exclusively for a month because they were lacking guard skill.

C. What level does Ryan have to reach before people take his opinions seriously? He placed 3rd at this year's ADCC. Ryan is one of the 3 best American JJ practitioners. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that wouldn't put Ryan in the top 3 along with Jeff Glover. The third pick would change based on who you talk to, but most people who follow the sport unanimously agree that Glover and Hall are 2 of the top 3 American guys out there. Here are his credentials:

Over 300 victories in competition (over 275 via submission)
Over 200 victories in competition via triangle choke
2009 Abu Dhabi World Championships <65.9kg Bronze Medallist
2007 Abu Dhabi World Championships Alternate Match Champion
2009 Abu Dhabi North American West Coast Trials Professional Lightweight Champion 2009 CBJJ Mundial Bronze Medalist
2008 CBJJ Mundial Champion
2007 CBJJ No-Gi Mundial Champion
2008 CBJJ European Champion 2008
CBJJ Brasiliero Bronze Medalist 2007
US Open Champion 10x Professional Superfight Champion (NAGA, NeverTap, US Grappling, et al)
#1 RATED Competitor Overall Nationwide for 2006
#1 RATED Advanced Submission Grappler Nationwide for 2006
#1 RATED Purple Belt Competitor Nationwide for 2006
#1 RATED Blue Belt Competitor Nationwide for 2005
Many times Grapplers Quest, NAGA, U.S. Grappling, Mission Submission Advanced Division Champion
Many times Grapplers Quest, NAGA, US Grappling Advanced Absolute (open weight) Division Champion

 

[Drew Foster]

Most of the techniques that I do, don't work on brown or black belts, but that doesn't mean the technique is bad, it just means I'm not doing it well enough, or my timing is off, or they see it coming and counter it. Like you said, there is just a big skill gap.

Perhaps Ryan's side control escapes just aren't as good as his (black belt) opponents' side control yet. He is still a brown belt after all, isn't he?

Your first point is absolutely correct. Skill gap plays a major part. But, Ryan is not simply talking about skill gaps. Ryan Hall is saying that it isn't simply a matter of the techniques being executed in a more precise way. He's saying that there are subtle differences between 99/100 people's hip escapes, and Marcelo, Roger, or Cobrinha's hip escapes. In the long article, he mentions that Roger mounts and cross chokes everyone, but that there is more to it than just basics performed at a high level. There are mechanics Roger uses that aren't apparent to the naked or untrained eye. That's the point he's making, if I understand him correctly.

The skill gap between Ryan and top level competitors is there, but it isn't as big as you'd think. Leo Vieira is arguably a top 5 no-gi grappler in the world and Ryan Hall gave him a run for his money, and although his still got submitted, Leo had a very hard time passing Ryan's guard.


He is JUST a brown belt, but he left his past teacher, and if he were a black right now, no one on earth would have a problem with it.

Also, someone mentioned that Ryan Hall said the armbar from the mount is a bad technique. That's a very limited interpretation of what he said, AND Ryan is talking about Gi BJJ for most of the interview, and many people are brining no-Gi into the discussion.

 

[L1l3v1l]

Leo Vieira is arguably a top 5 no-gi grappler in the world and Ryan Hall gave him a run for his money, and although his still got submitted, Leo had a very hard time passing Ryan's guard.

With Ryan's point of view shouldn't it have been simple for Leo to pass the guard and submit Ryan because he has the "mechanical advantage" of being on top? Was it not good then that Ryan had such a well-developed guard game to be able to defend himself for as long as he did against one of the best grapplers in the world?

 

[nefti]

let's get this strait. No one in bjj ever said that the guard is the place to be. Every instructor i have ever had said that top position is important (mount,side mount, back) . However if you are gonn a be on the bottom you better be in your guard.

 

[Mr. Sandman]

Great article using great logic.

...Funny how I've gone to my second wrestling class tonight, for reasons explained in this article.

 

[Drew Foster]

With Ryan's point of view shouldn't it have been simple for Leo to pass the guard and submit Ryan because he has the "mechanical advantage" of being on top? Was it not good then that Ryan had such a well-developed guard game to be able to defend himself for as long as he did against one of the best grapplers in the world?

I don't get what you're asking? Leo is maybe the best takedown/wrestler/no-gi Judo artist in the no-gi game. There's no way Ryan was gonna take that man down. Ryan was in a position where he needed to keep Leo from passing and he did a very good job doing it.

You're acting like Hall had claimed that no one should ever learn or use the guard under any circumstance.

No, it shouldn't have been simple for Leo to pass. They're both good. Leo had technique and gravity on his side. Ryan just had technique, but he was on the bottom, so he had to play the hand he was dealt.

I'm still very confused about your question. Are you being earnest, or trying to poke holes in Hall's thesis?

 

[GracieMMABarra]

Interesting article. I came to the same realization about the top game a year ago. Been a guard player my entire BJJ career it has been a struggle to gain any ground using the top game. While the guard is extremely important, many smaller grapplers like myself and Ryan, few years back, have been avoiding the top and it shows. Look at Shaolin, Leo, and Feitosa. How many world champions have they won, by using what was described by Ryan about Marcelo. If they were in guard, they would set up the sweep, and finish by driving either a single or double, and force the top game on opponents. However all 3's takedown games are extremely good so putting them on their backs is no easy task.

My main finish is the front choke as well. Tho I've been tapped a million times while on top by better or worse grapplers I have made slow steps improving my top game : )

 

[Doh!]

Ryan is one of the 3 best American JJ practitioners.

While I'm sure Ryan appreciates your support, and as one of his students, of course I think he is a great practitioner and teacher, but stating unequivically that he is definitely in the top three may be overstepping a few individuals.

Ryan doesn't like to be lumped in as one of the best. If you ask him directly, he'll say it's because he's not there yet. I've heard him state this more than once.

Just to name a few of the American BJJ blackbelts that Ryan has mentioned in class as individuals he deeply respects, he has learned a lot from, or are downright better than him:

Jeff Glover
Bill Cooper
Rafael Lovato Jr.
Dave Camarillo
Rick Macauley
Paul Schreiner
Baret Yoshida
Darren Uyeneyama
BJ Penn


PS 90% of you guys are missing the point entirely and I don't think you will fully understand unless you sit down and talk to the guy. Decide if you think he's right or wrong after that.

 

[Sharkmachine]

I think Ryan might have gotten a little carried away with some of his points here. Guard pulling will disappear in years to come? This is a pretty big revelation about the future course of jiu jitsu, and coming from a guy whos been in the sport 6 years? I definitely respect ryan, but I think this is a phase. Some interesting other points though

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

Great article using great logic.

...Funny how I've gone to my second wrestling class tonight, for reasons explained in this article.

Just got back from training. I was thinking the thread went downhill pretty fast until this post. If the article inspires at least one person to start crosstraining, then it is a success. You guys focus on the wrong message. It isn't that BJJ is becoming wrestling, or that there is a new secret technique to shrimping. I think the most important message is just that you need to train smart if you want to be at a higher level.

That means crosstraining. You need a balanced game: not an overly bottom-based one. The top is paramount for a reason. However as Barnett showed, you need a good bottom game and good leglocks too. In effect, you need to keep learning to close the holes in your own game for however long you train BJJ.

 

[FWTG]

Ryan is talking about the ELITE level. Once people get very good, they will just follow you in side control if your only defense is to move your hips away. Basically, to illustrate my point, try to shrimp out from side control on a brown or black belt to insert the close knee and see how well it works. It won't work. A lot of it is that there is just a big skill gap, but there's more to it than that. Ryan;s trying to crack to code in order to be one of the best.

Well obviously you would need to cycle through most escapes until one works but most side control escapes that you will be cycling through involve shrimping in one way or another.Just seems like a marketing ploy but it is good that ryan is branching out considering most of his game is centered around not only the guard (which is obviously garbage) but exotic guards like inverted and the 50/50 position (which his school actually is named after) lol.

 

[Doh!]

Well obviously you would need to cycle through most escapes until one works but most side control escapes that you will be cycling through involve shrimping in one way or another.

Did you even read the interview?

That's like saying you cycle through all the power tools in your garage when trying to build something until one of them works. ...Or you could just use the right one the first time. Or not. Whatever seems best to you, Mr. Escape Cycler Man.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

This is just personal opinion, but I find shrimping to be more valuable in retaining guard than escaping side control.

 

[Drew Foster]

While I'm sure Ryan appreciates your support, and as one of his students, of course I think he is a great practitioner and teacher, but stating unequivically that he is definitely in the top three may be overstepping a few individuals.

Ryan doesn't like to be lumped in as one of the best. If you ask him directly, he'll say it's because he's not there yet. I've heard him state this more than once.

Just to name a few of the American BJJ blackbelts that Ryan has mentioned in class as individuals he deeply respects, he has learned a lot from, or are downright better than him:

Jeff Glover
Bill Cooper
Rafael Lovato Jr.
Dave Camarillo
Rick Macauley
Paul Schreiner
Baret Yoshida
Darren Uyeneyama
BJ Penn


PS 90% of you guys are missing the point entirely and I don't think you will fully understand unless you sit down and talk to the guy. Decide if you think he's right or wrong after that.

Well, Dave C and BJ don't compete anymore. Yoshida and Bill Cooper would be my other picks for top 3. Rafael too.

Ryan got 3rd at ADCC, therefore, to me he;s top 3 in America in no-gi at least.

Just my opinion. No bias, as I;ve never trained with Hall.

 

[Drew Foster]

Joel Tudor is fantastic too

 

[FWTG]

Did you even read the interview?

That's like saying you cycle through all the power tools in your garage when trying to build something until one of them works. ...Or you could just use the right one the first time. Or not. Whatever seems best to you, Mr. Escape Cycler Man.

lol chaining escapes, subs sweeps ect usually leads to openings which make them work. Sure everyone will have their favorites but without flowing between different ones its unlikely your going to get anything to stick unless there is a huge skill gap. Each escape, sub ,sweep creates a reaction which provides openings for other techniques.... kind of like how ryan shows his techs in chains opening up the triangles ect in his own dvds.

But hey if trying single one tech by itself over and over from each position without chaining works for you then more power to you. Mr singletechdont flowbetweenthemtocreateopeningsman. lol

 

[Sharkmachine]

And the hip escape motion is used in so much more than getting out of side control. You use it when taking the back, in half guard, and a lot more offensive situations that we don't even think about.

 

[thegreenblender]

lol chaining escapes, subs sweeps ect usually leads to openings which make them work. Sure everyone will have their favorites but without flowing between different ones its unlikely your going to get anything to stick unless there is a huge skill gap. Each escape, sub ,sweep creates a reaction which provides openings for other techniques.... kind of like how ryan shows his techs in chains opening up the triangles ect in his own dvds.

But hey if trying single one tech by itself over and over from each position without chaining works for you then more power to you. Mr singletechdont flowbetweenthemtocreateopeningsman. lol

Good grapplers don't just pull out every tool in their toolbox until one works, they make educated choices about each tool being used. Sure, they might "chain" tools, but there is a method to their madness, they just don't start trying to go through every escape they remembered from their white belt days onward.

This post in no way reflects your idea accurately and is a complete generalization of an idea that you were not actually advocating. Thank you.

 

[FWTG]

Good grapplers don't just pull out every tool in their toolbox until one works, they make educated choices about each tool being used. Sure, they might "chain" tools, but there is a method to their madness, they just don't start trying to go through every escape they remembered from their white belt days onward.

This post in no way reflects your idea accurately and is a complete generalization of an idea that you were not actually advocating. Thank you.

Chaining debate aside the shrimp is such a vital tech in BJJ it seems like just a marketing ploy for Ryan to call it garbage. Lets see this super shrimp he invented.

Next class make it a goal to let people get you in side control and then try to escape without shrimping aka hip escaping in anyway and let us know how that works for you.

 

[thegreenblender]

Chaining debate aside the shrimp is such a vital tech in BJJ it seems like just a marketing ploy for Ryan to call it garbage. Lets see this super shrimp he invented.

Amen to this. Put it on video, sissy. I suppose for the next think he'll hint about a secret upa but he can only share it in the strictest confidence. I'm glad Ryan is bringing traditional philosophy on basics back into vogue, while also revitalizing the time honored tradition of hoarding grappling knowledge.