International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V15

[Rod1]

You think the west's collapse will be more to do with Trump.....

Than the invasions? The corruption? The bombings and drones? The wars? The sanctions?

You think these things would somehow disappear and not get magnified under Trump?

A awful lot of bad shit has happened since the Cold War. And it's continues along that path.

Nowhere near the scale of what went during the Cold War, which has a high chance to happen again if the West diminishes its influence in the world due to election a corrupt autocrat wannabe as president.

It's like blaming Biden for the collapse of the West... but doing it pre-emptively for Trump.

Seems silly to me.

A lot of stupid decisions have put us to where collapse is possible

"pre-emptively"

Trump is already doing damage by making Republicans block aid towards Ukraine.

 

[Anewt]

You think these things would somehow disappear and not get magnified under Trump?



Nowhere near the scale of what went during the Cold War, which has a high chance to happen again if the West diminishes its influence in the world due to election a corrupt autocrat wannabe as president.


"pre-emptively"

Trump is already doing damage by making Republicans block aid towards Ukraine.

In my opinion the west is and has been on the decline for quite some time. Yours differs obviously.

I personally won't be putting the " Start " of a western collapse on Trump.

 

[ferrisjso]

People mock you for being an apologist ass lol
You literally "don't support democracy" and whine about people pointing out Russia is an autocratic mafia state
The only reason you claim to not be capitalist -despite living in America and freeloading off your parents capitalist wage earning- is that you are lazy

You're an apologist for the US and capitalism but that doesn't matter to you because you're a fucking moron who just assumes the place you're living in is right about everything. You think representative democracy is some sort of default setting for humanity and people who reject it because its a gaslighting tool are somehow defective.

The basics to live are just basic human rights not freeloading. Which you would not be calling the very little you know about my personal situation if I believed in capitalism. People who actually freeload and enjoy all the luxurys of this declining civilization aren't going to hear a peep from you. You are calling it that as a slur to undermine my credibility because I do not agree with you and don't accept the current way of life. Which you believe everyone is obligated to do. You believe everyone is obligated to support the current borders, the current economic system the current political system. Heck our fucking energy situation. Jesus christ you are the literal definiton of a tool who has not had an original thought in their entire fucking life and call people who hate capitalism quote "contrarians". Cause the very idea fucking confuses you.

From this point on I am going to report every single time you respond to my posts(except the next one as I guess expecting you not to respond to my post is unfair). Whether or not anyone does anything about it we'll see but fuck this stalking shit. Because you literally respond to every single one of my posts in this thread for months and I'm fucking sick of it.

 

[Rational Poster]

You're an apologist for the US and capitalism but that doesn't matter to you because you're a fucking moron who just assumes the place you're living in is right about everything. You think representative democracy is some sort of default setting for humanity and people who reject it because its a gaslighting tool are somehow defective.

The basics to live are just basic human rights not freeloading. Which you would not be calling the very little you know about my personal situation if I believed in capitalism. People who actually freeload and enjoy all the luxurys of this declining civilization aren't going to hear a peep from you. You are calling it that as a slur to undermine my credibility because I do not agree with you and don't accept the current way of life. Which you believe everyone is obligated to do. You believe everyone is obligated to support the current borders, the current economic system the current political system. Heck our fucking energy situation. Jesus christ you are the literal definiton of a tool who has not had an original thought in their entire fucking life and call people who hate capitalism quote "contrarians". Cause the very idea fucking confuses you.

From this point on I am going to report every single time you respond to my posts(except the next one as I guess expecting you not to respond to my post is unfair). Whether or not anyone does anything about it we'll see but fuck this stalking shit. Because you literally respond to every single one of my posts in this thread for months and I'm fucking sick of it.

We only know the details of your sad life because you've foolishly posted about them on this forum. And even in your biased, charitable version of your own life, you're one of the biggest losers we've ever encountered and I can only imagine the reality is even more pitiable.

I doubt the mods will show any sympathy.

 

[ferrisjso]

In my opinion the west is and has been on the decline for quite some time. Yours differs obviously.

I personally won't be putting the " Start " of a western collapse on Trump.

Ironic thing is that decline started largely in 1991 because the fall of USSR meant capitalism no longer had to be on its best behavior. The superiority of western civ had been proven so why restrain themselves? The 90s were the happiest the west ever got and things slowly getting worse. It takes Jack Savage levels of delusion to believe things have improved since then. If there is 1 thing that unites the entire political spectrum its the fact that things have gotten worse even if theres disagreement how we got there.

This is why the fall of the USSR was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century not just because of what happened in the USSRs borders but because the people outside of the socialist world greatly benefited from the USSR and it's existence which moderated capitalism. The wests greatest victory was in reality its greatest defeat.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

You think Trump abandoning Ukraine would be the start of the collapse of the West?


The " Start " ? Reaaaaallly? Not the past 50 years of global militarisation? Not the reckless environmental damage theft bribery invasions assassinations wars drones bombings increased military expenditure starvation pharmaceutical testing etc etc etc etc etc etc...


It'll be .... Trump..... riight

Abandoning allies is a major, major sea change in terms of Western cohesion - particularly when it directly benefits a major adversary.

'Start', maybe not, but it's a pretty serious stage to find ourselves at.

 

[Anewt]

Abandoning allies is a major, major sea change in terms of Western cohesion - particularly when it directly benefits a major adversary.

'Start', maybe not, but it's a pretty serious stage to find ourselves at.

I can agree with that. but its not the first and won't be the last time we've abandoned allies in the past 20 years

 

[Bacco]

Trump is already doing damage by making Republicans block aid towards Ukraine.

This
Support Ukraine at antagonize Russia in NATO's interest it's like one of the very few things in the universe both sides in USA should agree on, intsead somehow one side seem to believe you should say the opposite of your opponent no matter what

I surely have more often "rightwing" opinions rather than "lefty" ones, but fuck Trump crowd is the most retarded movement i seen in a while

It's like these people don't realize the HUGE damage US will take in geopolitical perspective if they abandon ukranians and let russian do as they please

 

[Deleted member 585708]

I can agree with that. but its not the first and won't be the last time we've abandoned allies in the past 20 years

It's such a shame.

It's literally the thing CTards have been complaining about for decades - "divide and conquer" tactics to take a country and split it down the middle, and somehow they've been taken along for the ride with the rest of the nation.

I know Trump is one of those magical glyphs now, but it's just insane to me that Americans are going to vote for this guy. It couldn't be worse timing to vote for someone like that who would sell his country/democracy/wife/daughter for a bit of personal profit.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

This
Support Ukraine at antagonize Russia in NATO's interest it's like one of the very few things in the universe both sides in USA should agree on, intsead somehow one side seem to believe you should say the opposite of your opponent no matter what

I surely have more often "rightwing" opinions rather than "lefty" ones, but fuck Trump crowd is the most retarded movement i seen in a while

It's like these people don't realize the HUGE damage US will take in geopolitical perspective if they abandon ukranians and let russian do as they please

And somehow pretending there's a difference between Russia and China.

There isn't.

They will both consume the West little by little, not necessarily militarily, but by any means - including by exposing capitalism.

They are both a major threat to the West that must be kept at arms length.

 

[Cid]

You think Trump abandoning Ukraine would be the start of the collapse of the West?


The " Start " ? Reaaaaallly? Not the past 50 years of global militarisation? Not the reckless environmental damage theft bribery invasions assassinations wars drones bombings increased military expenditure starvation pharmaceutical testing etc etc etc etc etc etc...


It'll be .... Trump..... riight

The tankie liking your post should tell you all you need to know.

Bad shit happens.


There's areas where we improve. There's areas where we fall. Normal part of being fallible.

Except for drones every example you listed has all happened historically. They're not new developments or evidence that the west is in decline.

Increased military expenditure is flat out wrong.


US Military spending as a % of GDP has more than halved in the past 60 years so you're just flat out wrong on that point. Long term trend clearly going down.

U.S. Military Spending/Defense Budget | Historical Chart & Data

Military expenditures data from SIPRI are derived from the NATO definition, which includes all current and capital expenditures on the armed forces, including peacekeeping forces; defense ministries and other government agencies engaged in defense projects; paramilitary forces, if these are...

www.macrotrends.net

Same with our country.

 

[AWilder]

And somehow pretending there's a difference between Russia and China.

There isn't.

They will both consume the West little by little, not necessarily militarily, but by any means - including by exposing capitalism.

They are both a major threat to the West that must be kept at arms length.

Meh, culture victory FTW

 

[Anewt]

The tankie liking your post should tell you all you need to know.

Bad shit happens.


There's areas where we improve. There's areas where we fall. Normal part of being fallible.

Except for drones every example you listed has all happened historically. They're not new developments or evidence that the west is in decline.

Increased military expenditure is flat out wrong.


US Military spending as a % of GDP has more than halved in the past 60 years so you're just flat out wrong on that point. Long term trend clearly going down.

U.S. Military Spending/Defense Budget | Historical Chart & Data

Military expenditures data from SIPRI are derived from the NATO definition, which includes all current and capital expenditures on the armed forces, including peacekeeping forces; defense ministries and other government agencies engaged in defense projects; paramilitary forces, if these are...

www.macrotrends.net

Same with our country.

Fair points... so why would a different American figurehead signal the " Start " of a collapse of the West to you ?

The US gdp had increased yearly
The US military budget had also increased yearly.

You can say it's no longer as large a % of the gdp... sure you are correct.

But to then say the military expenditure hasn't increased is a bit misleading mate.

If it was 320 billion in 2000
And it's now 800 billion.....

You're telling me that's not a increase?

 

[AWilder]

Fair points... so why would a different American figurehead signal the " Start " of a collapse of the West to you ?

The US gdp had increased yearly
The US military budget had also increased yearly.

You can say it's no longer as large a % of the gdp... sure you are correct.

But to then say the military expenditure hasn't increased is a bit misleading mate.

If it was 320 billion in 2000
And it's now 800 billion.....

You're telling me that's not a increase?

25 years of inflation looks about the same

 

[Bacco]

And somehow pretending there's a difference between Russia and China.

There isn't.

They will both consume the West little by little, not necessarily militarily, but by any means - including by exposing capitalism.

They are both a major threat to the West that must be kept at arms length.

I actually disagree on this, and good old principle of divide et impera would disagree too

One can recognize both as antagonist nations, wich they are, and yet recognize also they have different ambitions, targets, plan, methods, timing and lot else
Not even their final goal is the same, nor they both need to achieve it for one to "win"

They don't even like or trust each other, and literally only way to make them agree on something instead push on that already existing crack between them is offer them an enemy that paint them the same

 

[Deleted member 585708]

I actually disagree on this, and good old principle of divide et impera would disagree too

One can recognize both as antagonist nations, wich they are, and yet recognize also they have different ambitions, targets, plan, methods, timing and lot else
Not even their final goal is the same, nor they both need to achieve it for one to "win"

They don't even like or trust each other, and literally only way to make them agree on something instead push on that already existing crack between them is offer them an enemy that paint them the same

I don't really see any point in differentiating, other than in terms of strategy.

Both are vehemently positioned against the West. Russia may be a military aggressor and therefore the worse of the two, but China has long been seen as a threat to Western security both through exported tech and flooding industries, ie, with cheap steel.

Different methodology, sure, they not might be in bed with one another, but neither regimes are friends to Americans or Europeans.

For some reason Republicans have convinced themselves they're polar opposites of the spectrum when they're definitely not.

 

[Cid]

Fair points... so why would a different American figurehead signal the " Start " of a collapse of the West to you ?

The US gdp had increased yearly
The US military budget had also increased yearly.

You can say it's no longer as large a % of the gdp... sure you are correct.

But to then say the military expenditure hasn't increased is a bit misleading mate.

If it was 320 billion in 2000
And it's now 800 billion.....

You're telling me that's not a increase?

Relative to GDP isn't. America spends more because the GDP increases.

It's what happens when you get more money. You buy more shit.

% wise it's going down.

Now they have a new near peer enemy (China) it might float back up in the coming decades. That's pretty obviously a failure if you want to list recent failures from the west and argue our decline.



I didn't say Trump would signal the start of the collapse but he is pretty clearly substantially less competent geopolitically. Which is a bad thing because your country (and mine) is #1 scrote licker.

 

[curryjunkie]

You're an apologist for the US and capitalism but that doesn't matter to you because you're a fucking moron who just assumes the place you're living in is right about everything. You think representative democracy is some sort of default setting for humanity and people who reject it because its a gaslighting tool are somehow defective.

The basics to live are just basic human rights not freeloading. Which you would not be calling the very little you know about my personal situation if I believed in capitalism. People who actually freeload and enjoy all the luxurys of this declining civilization aren't going to hear a peep from you. You are calling it that as a slur to undermine my credibility because I do not agree with you and don't accept the current way of life. Which you believe everyone is obligated to do. You believe everyone is obligated to support the current borders, the current economic system the current political system. Heck our fucking energy situation. Jesus christ you are the literal definiton of a tool who has not had an original thought in their entire fucking life and call people who hate capitalism quote "contrarians". Cause the very idea fucking confuses you.

From this point on I am going to report every single time you respond to my posts(except the next one as I guess expecting you not to respond to my post is unfair). Whether or not anyone does anything about it we'll see but fuck this stalking shit. Because you literally respond to every single one of my posts in this thread for months and I'm fucking sick of it.

 

[Bacco]

I don't really see any point in differentiating, other than in terms of strategy.

You say it as if is some secondary aspect
The strategic side is EVERYTHING handling current geopolitical mess

Alliance and deals push things on your side, as we speak there's no alternative
Idealism will not solve this, and good luck btw at build your stance on idealism considering how shy and half ass we are helping ukranians

Alternative to this Cold War 2 would be go full retard with WW3 (wich we should not want, and China does even less than us) and even assuming all this shit will inevitably result in WW3, would still like lot of strategy to be used to play it as far as possible from western europe, would be nice change for once

Beside that if you have two enemies, and you know one plan to stab you with a knife tomorrow afternoon and the other plan to slowly poison your coffee through 20 years, use next hours to worry equally abouth both rather than focus on neutralize first guy would be retarded. That morning may even be smart to drink your coffe and make it look best coffee of the week

 

[Deleted member 585708]

You say it as if is some secondary aspect
The strategic side is EVERYTHING handling current geopolitical mess

Alliance and deals push things on your side, as we speak there's no alternative
Idealism will not solve this, and good luck btw at build your stance on idealism considering how shy and half ass we are helping ukranians

Alternative to this Cold War 2 would be go full retard with WW3 (wich we should not want, and China does even less than us) and even assuming all this shit will inevitably result in WW3, would still like lot of strategy to be used to play it as far as possible from western europe, would be nice change for once

Beside that if you have two enemies, and you know one plan to stab you with a knife tomorrow afternoon and the other plan to slowly poison your coffee through 20 years, use next hours to worry equally abouth both rather than focus on neutralize first guy would be retarded. That morning may even be smart to drink your coffe and make it loook good

I'm talking about this conversation, and generalisations.

We're not strategising how to combat them, or at least I'm not.

I'm discussing how neither Russia or China are remotely friendly to the West, and nobody should be under any illusion that Putin, Russia, Xi Jingping, or China are 'allies'.

Obviously if there are Republicans out there thinking Putin "isn't that bad", this is the level the conversation needs to be kept at so as not to blow their minds with detail.

I agree with most of what you're saying, just to be clear!