International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V12

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We've had this conversation probably a dozen times.

The people whose land would be changing hands support Russia overwhelmingly and have been fighting to seperate from Ukraine for nearly a decade before Russia jumped in. If Ukraine joins NATO those lands will never be able to break free. If that's what those revolutionarys want I support them the same as I support leftist comrades all across the world. Ukraine is standing up for neoliberalism and the current capitalist based status quo and is more hostile towards my core values than Russia who has been supporting the leftist seperatists. Ukraine has the support of govts I don't like and has banned socialist parties in it's country. They also have the support of Nazis.

There's also the idea of ending the invincibility of the current western "rules based" order which claims to be the end of history and is arrogant enough to claim the artifical borders recognized by it are somehow more infalliable and perfect than ones established in the past. Because they said so. This order enforces the hegemony of capitalism, corporations and austerity on the worlds people. As much of Ukraine as possible should be spared from that, especially those who are willing to fight to get away from it.

There tried to give a basic rundown. But we've been interacting on these threads for awhile. If you really do not get my perspective I'm skeptical a little summary will change that.

This is also obviously not true, the areas of the country that voted for a pro-Western government by the largest majorities were literally the ones that Russia has claimed.

In fact, the only Oblast that voted against Zelensky was Lviv, the one Oblast that is furthest from the Russian border. See the image above.
 
Russia said it's an escalation a bazillion times already. No one cares or believes them anymore.

No one believes they'll use nukes either. If they did, China will tell them to completely fuck off and Russia would be really fucked.

And if they did, all of NATO would kick the shit out of them within a week. Hell - Poland by itself can now kick the shit out of Russia.

He should be ashamed. - Defense Minister Jakob Ellemann-Jensen (V) on the Russian ambassador.
 
Retired US General Ben Hodges says the US and Germany do not truly want Ukraine to win and that's why they don't give ATACMS. And restricting attacks to inside Ukraine.

Timestamped at 9:31.



The 'West' wants the war to drag on as long as possible to kill as many Ukrainians as possible. Ukraine is being cleared out to make way for something new.
 
why would they support russia? all their economic ties and future is in doing business with the west. I think their level of support right now has more to do with preventing russian collapse as china has always tried to keep it's immediate neighbors stable, subjugated, or both. And i dont think china has any plans to subjugate russian insanity.
Like this.
China wants to use russia in order to bully west while for them most valuable thing is to keep russia poor and under sanctions. Why? Trade even with just South Korea alone for China is not lesser valuable for profit than trade vs Russia.
Russia is looked as gas tank and commodities supplier, better if with discounts and customers should be milked dry with chinesse export and transit. That's all and here might be added reality: China is overpopulated in comfortable areas, siberia is underpopulated and does have damn a lot of different natural resources + is very rich land with poor ppl and small layer of local elite....
 
This is also obviously not true, the areas of the country that voted for a pro-Western government by the largest majorities were literally the ones that Russia has claimed.

In fact, the only Oblast that voted against Zelensky was Lviv, the one Oblast that is furthest from the Russian border. See the image above.

Zelensky didn't run as an anti-Russia candidate. That's why Lviv voted against him and the east and south voted for.
 
Zelensky didn't run as an anti-Russia candidate. That's why Lviv voted against him and the east and south voted for.
He wasn't anti russia oriented at all.
While ofc opportunity to get agricultural subsidies from EU taxpayers pockets for large country like Ukraine is like honey.... IF Ukr will be accepted in EU.
While this is double edged sword: EU standards and boosted up workforce emmigration will rise production price. Seriously.

Actually skilled and experienced workforce from Ukr isn't rarity in EU, the same about seasonal workers teams....
While if agricultural workers working all year in one company will emmigrate to EU, pressure on salaries to get UP in Ukraine will be notable factor.
 
Zelensky didn't run as an anti-Russia candidate. That's why Lviv voted against him and the east and south voted for.

I don't think that's entirely the case, both candidates were de facto anti-Russian in 2019. It was a line of attack both Zelensky and Poroshenko both used against each other at one point or another. Poroshenko pointed to his eastern Ukrainian roots and being a native Russian speaker, Zelensky pointed to Poroshenko's dealings with Medvedchuk and Moscow.

Seems like both had a position to maintain peace with Russia and not open confrontation, but obviously Russia had different ideas no matter what happened that election. Both candidate were more pro-West than any of their predecessors.
 
I don't think that's entirely the case, both candidates were de facto anti-Russian in 2019. It was a line of attack both Zelensky and Poroshenko both used against each other at one point or another. Poroshenko pointed to his eastern Ukrainian roots and being a native Russian speaker, Zelensky pointed to Poroshenko's dealings with Medvedchuk and Moscow.

Seems like both had a position to maintain peace with Russia and not open confrontation, but obviously Russia had different ideas no matter what happened that election. Both candidate were more pro-West than any of their predecessors.
Poroshenko was elected after 8 months in row not working alcoholic in billionaire Yanukovich was remowed from his post due to " doesn't work 8 months in row ".

While Poroshenko too is an oligarch and in reality is very rich billionaire.
Ofc crowd might be disstatisfied because most part of his wealth Poroshenko get in cheap privatisation processes.

Poroshenko was considerably more rich than Zelensky and this too played big impact in elections.

While I don't think that Ukr are oppressing Poroshenko: he is allowed freely travel, no one attacked him and Zelensky allowed him to travel when war started.
Poroshenko is relistically thinking adult and mature male.
He sometimes is traveling alone in Ukr etc...
 
I don't think that's entirely the case, both candidates were de facto anti-Russian in 2019. It was a line of attack both Zelensky and Poroshenko both used against each other at one point or another. Poroshenko pointed to his eastern Ukrainian roots and being a native Russian speaker, Zelensky pointed to Poroshenko's dealings with Medvedchuk and Moscow.

Seems like both had a position to maintain peace with Russia and not open confrontation, but obviously Russia had different ideas no matter what happened that election. Both candidate were more pro-West than any of their predecessors.

It looks like both were pro-west, although Zelensky wasn't really seen as anti-Russia. But you are contradicting what you said in your previous post. Because, regardless of whether a region voted for Zelensky or Poroshenko, they were voting pro-west.
 
Poroshenko is strange, sometimes he was shocking simple.
Like drive to supermaket alone, without bodyguards and driver , load groceries and .... like all casual ppl.
He sometimes did such stuff when he was president of Ukraine.
 
Correct. The plan is to get as many Ukrainians killed as possible so the US can send all their illegal immigrants.

Why did you post the video and make a point of mentioning the retired US general doesn't want Ukraine to win? You're a conspiracy theorist, but you mock me for being one. Please explain why you posted that video.
 
It looks like both were pro-west, although Zelensky wasn't really seen as anti-Russia. But you are contradicting what you said in your previous post. Because, regardless of whether a region voted for Zelensky or Poroshenko, they were voting pro-west.

I don't think it's really a contradiction, it only further cements the point that there was no major indigenous political separatist movement in Ukraine in 2019 like the poster I quoted alluded to.
 
I don't think it's really a contradiction, it only further cements the point that there was no major indigenous political separatist movement in Ukraine in 2019 like the poster I quoted alluded to.

That appears to be the case. I was only referring to your point that the most pro-Zelensky regions were the most pro-west.

The divide between more pro-Poroshenko and pro-Zelensky probably had more to do with preference for or against a native Russian speaker from the east. Russia also took an explicitly anti-Poroshenko stance and that probably motivated those more anti-Russian Ukrainians in the west to vote for him.
 
It looks like both were pro-west, although Zelensky wasn't really seen as anti-Russia. But you are contradicting what you said in your previous post. Because, regardless of whether a region voted for Zelensky or Poroshenko, they were voting pro-west.

I mean from the perspective of Russian shills anything beyond rolling over as Russia takes over your country and genocides your culture = "pro-West".

So in that context yeah, he is "pro-West", any guy would be in that context.
 
This is NATO expansionism and yes they will ally with anyone and anything to contain NATO expansion.

Then why are they allying with Russia? Russian little antics led to NATO expansion and a massive wave of increased military build up by the West.

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