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As a former military medical professional, I would've never thought that drones could be tasked to save lives by dropping water and medicine on the battlefield.
Slava Ukraini!
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International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V12
- Thread starter Strychnine
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As a former military medical professional, I would've never thought that drones could be tasked to save lives by dropping water and medicine on the battlefield.
Slava Ukraini!
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I believe the Ukrainians have boat drones which they can load down to be nearly submersible like they did on the attack on the Kerch Bridge. It's not quite submarine drones but maybe close enough.
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I am surprised they waited this long. Western tactics won't work without the Western combined arms/air dominance that they take for granted. This has been discussed ad nauseum by people far more knowledgeable here than me on this topic. Plus every time there's some Western vehicle loss, Western haters come out with the 'see it was a waste of equipment/tax payer money'....
NATO and others want a pat on the back for finally providing equipment which would have made the difference last year at this time. A year later with all the trenches, dragon teeth, etc it's now much ado about nothing. The equipment Ukraine finally got just ensures there's a stalemate. I hope F16s and long range artillery make a larger difference when US and NATO finally send those. But I hope they won't expect a pat on the back for that either.
Ukraine pivots from Western war approach as losses mount
NATO and others want a pat on the back for finally providing equipment which would have made the difference last year at this time. A year later with all the trenches, dragon teeth, etc it's now much ado about nothing. The equipment Ukraine finally got just ensures there's a stalemate. I hope F16s and long range artillery make a larger difference when US and NATO finally send those. But I hope they won't expect a pat on the back for that either.
Ukraine pivots from Western war approach as losses mount
"
Ukrainian Troops Trained by the West Stumble in Battle
1.2k
Eric Schmitt and Helene Cooper
Wed, August 2, 2023 at 11:06 AM PDT
Members of a mortar team from the 24th Mechanized Brigade fire on a Russian position in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine, on July 23, 2023. (Finbarr O’Reilly/The New York Times)
WASHINGTON — The first several weeks of Ukraine’s long-awaited counteroffensive have not been kind to the Ukrainian troops who were trained and armed by the United States and its allies.
Equipped with advanced American weapons and heralded as the vanguard of a major assault, the troops became bogged down in dense Russian minefields under constant fire from artillery and helicopter gunships. Units got lost. One unit delayed a nighttime attack until dawn, losing its advantage. Another fared so badly that commanders yanked it off the battlefield altogether.
Now the Western-trained Ukrainian brigades are trying to turn things around, U.S. officials and independent analysts say. Ukrainian military commanders have changed tactics, focusing on wearing down the Russian forces with artillery and long-range missiles instead of plunging into minefields under fire. A troop surge is underway in the country’s south, with a second wave of Western-trained forces launching mostly small-scale attacks to punch through Russian lines.
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But early results have been mixed. While Ukrainian troops have retaken a few villages, they have yet to make the kinds of sweeping gains that characterized their successes in the strategically important cities of Kherson and Kharkiv last fall. The complicated training in Western maneuvers has given the Ukrainians scant solace in the face of barrage after barrage of Russian artillery.
Ukraine’s decision to change tactics is a clear signal that NATO’s hopes for large advances made by Ukrainian formations armed with new weapons, new training and an injection of artillery ammunition have failed to materialize, at least for now.
It raises questions about the quality of the training the Ukrainians received from the West and about whether tens of billions of dollars’ worth of weapons, including nearly $44 billion worth from the Biden administration, have been successful in transforming the Ukrainian military into a NATO-standard fighting force.
“The counteroffensive itself hasn’t failed; it will drag on for several months into the fall,” said Michael Kofman, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who recently visited the front lines. “Arguably, the problem was in the assumption that with a few months of training, Ukrainian units could be converted into fighting more the way American forces might fight, leading the assault against a well-prepared Russian defense, rather than helping Ukrainians fight more the best way they know how.”
President Vladimir Putin of Russia has increasingly signaled that his strategy is to wait out Ukraine and its allies and win the war by exhausting them. American officials are worried that Ukraine’s return to its old tactics risks that it will race through precious ammunition supplies, which could play into Putin’s hands and put Ukraine at a disadvantage in a war of attrition.
Biden administration officials had hoped the nine Western-trained brigades, some 36,000 troops, would show that the American way of warfare was superior to the Russian approach. While the Russians have a rigidly centralized command structure, the Americans taught the Ukrainians to empower senior enlisted soldiers to make quick decisions on the battlefield and to deploy combined arms tactics — synchronized attacks by infantry, armor and artillery forces.
Western officials championed that approach as more efficient than the costly strategy of wearing Russian forces down by attrition, which threatens to deplete Ukraine’s ammunition stocks.
Much of the training involved teaching Ukrainian troops how to go on the offensive rather than stay on defense. For years, Ukrainian troops had worked on defensive tactics as Russian-backed separatists launched attacks in eastern Ukraine. When Moscow began its full-scale invasion last year, Ukrainian troops put their defensive operations into play, denying Russia the swift victory it had anticipated.
The effort to take back their own territory “is requiring them to fight in different ways,” Colin H. Kahl, who recently stepped down as the Pentagon’s top policy official, said last month.
But the Western-trained brigades received only four to six weeks of combined arms training, and units made several mistakes at the start of the counteroffensive in early June that set them back, according to U.S. officials and analysts who recently visited the front lines and spoke to Ukrainian troops and commanders.
Some units failed to follow cleared paths and ran into mines. When a unit delayed a nighttime attack, an accompanying artillery bombardment to cover its advance went ahead as scheduled, tipping off the Russians.
In the first two weeks of the counteroffensive, as much as 20% of the weaponry Ukraine sent to the battlefield was damaged or destroyed, according to U.S. and European officials. The toll included some of the formidable Western fighting machines — tanks and armored personnel carriers — that the Ukrainians were counting on to beat back the Russians.
Military experts said that using newly learned tactics for the first time was always going to be hard, especially given that the Russian response was to assume a defensive crouch and fire massive barrages of artillery.
“They were given a tall order,” said Rob Lee, a Russian military specialist at the Foreign Policy Research Institute in Philadelphia and a former U.S. Marine officer, who has also traveled to the front lines. “They had a short amount of time to train on new equipment and to develop unit cohesion, and then they were thrown into one of the most difficult combat situations. They were put in an incredibly tough position.”
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine acknowledged in late July that his country’s counteroffensive against dug-in Russian troops was advancing more slowly than expected.
“We did have plans to start it in the spring, but we didn’t because, frankly, we had not enough munitions and armaments and not enough properly trained brigades — I mean, properly trained in these weapons,” Zelenskyy said via video link at the Aspen Security Forum, an annual national-security conference.
He added that “because we started it a bit late,” Russia had “time to mine all of our lands and build several lines of defense.”
Ukraine may well return to the American way of warfare if it breaks through dug-in Russian defenses, some military experts said. But offense is harder than defense, as Russia demonstrated last year when it abandoned its initial plans to advance to Kyiv.
“I do not think they’re abandoning combined arms tactics,” Philip M. Breedlove, a retired four-star Air Force general who was NATO’s supreme allied commander for Europe, said in an interview. “If they were to get through the first, second or third lines of defense, I think you’re going to see the definition of combined arms.”
Speaking at the Aspen forum, Jake Sullivan, President Joe Biden’s national security adviser, said, “Ukraine has a substantial amount of combat power that it has not yet committed to the fight, and it is trying to choose its moment to commit that combat power to the fight when it will have the maximum impact on the battlefield.”
That moment appeared to come last week when Ukraine significantly ratcheted up its counteroffensive with two southward thrusts apparently aimed at cities in the Zaporizhzhia region: Melitopol, near the Sea of Azov, and Berdiansk, to the east on the Azov coast. In both cases, the Ukrainians have advanced only a few miles and have dozens more to go.
But analysts question whether this second wave, relying on attacks by smaller units, will generate enough combat power and momentum to allow Ukrainian troops to push through Russian defenses.
Gian Luca Capovin and Alexander Stronell, analysts with the British security intelligence firm Janes, said that the small-unit attack strategy “is extremely likely to result in mass casualties, equipment loss and minimal territorial gains” for Ukraine.
U.S. officials said, however, the surge in Ukrainian forces in the past week came at a time when the Ukrainians were clearing paths through some of the Russian defenses and beginning to wear down Russian troops and artillery.
A Western official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss operational details and intelligence assessments, said the Russians were stretched and still experiencing problems with logistics, supply, personnel and weapons.
Breedlove concurred and said he still expected the Ukrainian counteroffensive to put Russia at a disadvantage.
“The Ukrainians are in a place now where they understand how they want to employ their forces,” he said. “And we’re starting to see the Russians move backwards.”
"
Ukrainian Troops Trained by the West Stumble in Battle
1.2k
Eric Schmitt and Helene Cooper
Wed, August 2, 2023 at 11:06 AM PDT
Members of a mortar team from the 24th Mechanized Brigade fire on a Russian position in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine, on July 23, 2023. (Finbarr O’Reilly/The New York Times)
WASHINGTON — The first several weeks of Ukraine’s long-awaited counteroffensive have not been kind to the Ukrainian troops who were trained and armed by the United States and its allies.
Equipped with advanced American weapons and heralded as the vanguard of a major assault, the troops became bogged down in dense Russian minefields under constant fire from artillery and helicopter gunships. Units got lost. One unit delayed a nighttime attack until dawn, losing its advantage. Another fared so badly that commanders yanked it off the battlefield altogether.
Now the Western-trained Ukrainian brigades are trying to turn things around, U.S. officials and independent analysts say. Ukrainian military commanders have changed tactics, focusing on wearing down the Russian forces with artillery and long-range missiles instead of plunging into minefields under fire. A troop surge is underway in the country’s south, with a second wave of Western-trained forces launching mostly small-scale attacks to punch through Russian lines.
Sign up for The Morning newsletter from the New York Times
But early results have been mixed. While Ukrainian troops have retaken a few villages, they have yet to make the kinds of sweeping gains that characterized their successes in the strategically important cities of Kherson and Kharkiv last fall. The complicated training in Western maneuvers has given the Ukrainians scant solace in the face of barrage after barrage of Russian artillery.
Ukraine’s decision to change tactics is a clear signal that NATO’s hopes for large advances made by Ukrainian formations armed with new weapons, new training and an injection of artillery ammunition have failed to materialize, at least for now.
It raises questions about the quality of the training the Ukrainians received from the West and about whether tens of billions of dollars’ worth of weapons, including nearly $44 billion worth from the Biden administration, have been successful in transforming the Ukrainian military into a NATO-standard fighting force.
“The counteroffensive itself hasn’t failed; it will drag on for several months into the fall,” said Michael Kofman, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who recently visited the front lines. “Arguably, the problem was in the assumption that with a few months of training, Ukrainian units could be converted into fighting more the way American forces might fight, leading the assault against a well-prepared Russian defense, rather than helping Ukrainians fight more the best way they know how.”
President Vladimir Putin of Russia has increasingly signaled that his strategy is to wait out Ukraine and its allies and win the war by exhausting them. American officials are worried that Ukraine’s return to its old tactics risks that it will race through precious ammunition supplies, which could play into Putin’s hands and put Ukraine at a disadvantage in a war of attrition.
Biden administration officials had hoped the nine Western-trained brigades, some 36,000 troops, would show that the American way of warfare was superior to the Russian approach. While the Russians have a rigidly centralized command structure, the Americans taught the Ukrainians to empower senior enlisted soldiers to make quick decisions on the battlefield and to deploy combined arms tactics — synchronized attacks by infantry, armor and artillery forces.
Western officials championed that approach as more efficient than the costly strategy of wearing Russian forces down by attrition, which threatens to deplete Ukraine’s ammunition stocks.
Much of the training involved teaching Ukrainian troops how to go on the offensive rather than stay on defense. For years, Ukrainian troops had worked on defensive tactics as Russian-backed separatists launched attacks in eastern Ukraine. When Moscow began its full-scale invasion last year, Ukrainian troops put their defensive operations into play, denying Russia the swift victory it had anticipated.
The effort to take back their own territory “is requiring them to fight in different ways,” Colin H. Kahl, who recently stepped down as the Pentagon’s top policy official, said last month.
But the Western-trained brigades received only four to six weeks of combined arms training, and units made several mistakes at the start of the counteroffensive in early June that set them back, according to U.S. officials and analysts who recently visited the front lines and spoke to Ukrainian troops and commanders.
Some units failed to follow cleared paths and ran into mines. When a unit delayed a nighttime attack, an accompanying artillery bombardment to cover its advance went ahead as scheduled, tipping off the Russians.
In the first two weeks of the counteroffensive, as much as 20% of the weaponry Ukraine sent to the battlefield was damaged or destroyed, according to U.S. and European officials. The toll included some of the formidable Western fighting machines — tanks and armored personnel carriers — that the Ukrainians were counting on to beat back the Russians.
Military experts said that using newly learned tactics for the first time was always going to be hard, especially given that the Russian response was to assume a defensive crouch and fire massive barrages of artillery.
“They were given a tall order,” said Rob Lee, a Russian military specialist at the Foreign Policy Research Institute in Philadelphia and a former U.S. Marine officer, who has also traveled to the front lines. “They had a short amount of time to train on new equipment and to develop unit cohesion, and then they were thrown into one of the most difficult combat situations. They were put in an incredibly tough position.”
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine acknowledged in late July that his country’s counteroffensive against dug-in Russian troops was advancing more slowly than expected.
“We did have plans to start it in the spring, but we didn’t because, frankly, we had not enough munitions and armaments and not enough properly trained brigades — I mean, properly trained in these weapons,” Zelenskyy said via video link at the Aspen Security Forum, an annual national-security conference.
He added that “because we started it a bit late,” Russia had “time to mine all of our lands and build several lines of defense.”
Ukraine may well return to the American way of warfare if it breaks through dug-in Russian defenses, some military experts said. But offense is harder than defense, as Russia demonstrated last year when it abandoned its initial plans to advance to Kyiv.
“I do not think they’re abandoning combined arms tactics,” Philip M. Breedlove, a retired four-star Air Force general who was NATO’s supreme allied commander for Europe, said in an interview. “If they were to get through the first, second or third lines of defense, I think you’re going to see the definition of combined arms.”
Speaking at the Aspen forum, Jake Sullivan, President Joe Biden’s national security adviser, said, “Ukraine has a substantial amount of combat power that it has not yet committed to the fight, and it is trying to choose its moment to commit that combat power to the fight when it will have the maximum impact on the battlefield.”
That moment appeared to come last week when Ukraine significantly ratcheted up its counteroffensive with two southward thrusts apparently aimed at cities in the Zaporizhzhia region: Melitopol, near the Sea of Azov, and Berdiansk, to the east on the Azov coast. In both cases, the Ukrainians have advanced only a few miles and have dozens more to go.
But analysts question whether this second wave, relying on attacks by smaller units, will generate enough combat power and momentum to allow Ukrainian troops to push through Russian defenses.
Gian Luca Capovin and Alexander Stronell, analysts with the British security intelligence firm Janes, said that the small-unit attack strategy “is extremely likely to result in mass casualties, equipment loss and minimal territorial gains” for Ukraine.
U.S. officials said, however, the surge in Ukrainian forces in the past week came at a time when the Ukrainians were clearing paths through some of the Russian defenses and beginning to wear down Russian troops and artillery.
A Western official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss operational details and intelligence assessments, said the Russians were stretched and still experiencing problems with logistics, supply, personnel and weapons.
Breedlove concurred and said he still expected the Ukrainian counteroffensive to put Russia at a disadvantage.
“The Ukrainians are in a place now where they understand how they want to employ their forces,” he said. “And we’re starting to see the Russians move backwards.”
"
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Kinda shit article since it ignores that there are no black ops techniques that make up for lack of air support and running into heavy defences.You are exposed if you are exposed
But i just found it weird that ukr was being trained by militaries in europe when it has more experience than all european militaries combined, people who have been fighting for a while being told what to do by people who have never been to war (basic training and equipment training not counting)
I sure would not say anything about tactics to some mariupol soledar or bahmut veteran lol
Last edited:
Ofc. Supplies just to ensure stalemate...not more.
+ russia is doing everything to ensure food price increase.
Ofc highest effect will be on poor ppl in poor countries.
Then Putin will have leverage vs these african and middle east leaders : might offer cheap wheat etc.
Casuals in these countries still will pay more because speculants will increase prices anyway.
Then phase No2 with russian propaganda in these countries to blame EU and U.S about high retail sales prices ....
+ russia is doing everything to ensure food price increase.
Ofc highest effect will be on poor ppl in poor countries.
Then Putin will have leverage vs these african and middle east leaders : might offer cheap wheat etc.
Casuals in these countries still will pay more because speculants will increase prices anyway.
Then phase No2 with russian propaganda in these countries to blame EU and U.S about high retail sales prices ....
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I agree there is some irony in that Ukrainians now have more experience than the ones training them.
However, the Ukrainians did indeed need training on how to use their new equipment.
Additionally, this type of warfare - WW1 trench battles in combination with modern style missiles, drones, and equipment - This has never been done before. You can't train for something that has never occurred in history. They're literally learning on the fly.
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Yea i mentioned equipment training
Trench stuff hasnt changed since WW1 in my opinion, trenches are still build same way as in WW1 and tactics used are similar. tank is still a tank, artillery is still artillery, only new thing is drones
Russias defensive line is literally copy of tenoille from what i saw in footages
Edit weird how pic came out
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. Ukraine’s latest weapons in its war with Russia: 3D-printed bombs (economist.com)
A group of Ukrainians making 3D-printed bombs has produced more than 30.000 bombs in the past 4 months while the production increased. Another group makes cases for 800-gram anti-personnel bombs and said they make about 1,000 bombs a week.
A group of Ukrainians making 3D-printed bombs has produced more than 30.000 bombs in the past 4 months while the production increased. Another group makes cases for 800-gram anti-personnel bombs and said they make about 1,000 bombs a week.
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"Experience is a hard teacher. It gives you the test first and the lessons later."
So much for western training. Back to old tactics. Time away from Ukraine was nice though, but not everyone came back to fight.
The Ukrainian Army liberated 227 square km and lost more than 26,000 soldiers. 114 soldiers per square km. At this rate Ukraine needs 14,250,000 soldiers to fight and die to liberate 125,000 square km currently occupied by the Russian Army. Maybe this would be a good time to come to the table with the Russians.
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VDV used Zerg rush tactics.
The mission they were given, they didnt have much of a choice. Russia was smoking crack thinking they could do a general invasion and win quickly. Its ironically one of the reasons why i thought they wouldnt invade. That Ukraine's army is no joke and would not be defeated without a long war.
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And that has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote or even your question.
• equipment training.
• russia can hit training centers located in ukraine.
• ukraine does have limited resources for training.
☆ Not all europeans are inexperienced, btw in some niches they actually are very experienced.
For example the same sappers training, to train snipers....
Training for combat medics....
Training for repair technicians.
Etc etc.
The same basic training they too sometimes might forget.
It is trench war like WW1...
While not only drones are new thing.
Radioelectronic surrvilance, jammers, pelengators, radioelectronic warfare stations....
All this is playing huge role in this shitty war.
Ppl easier might notice claims about number of killed soldiers, to see territory gains in sq km2 etc.
To value destroyed radioelectronic warfare stations, ammo depots ....is more difficult and .... such damage might be done when frontline doesn't changes at all.
It is trench war like WW1...
While not only drones are new thing.
Radioelectronic surrvilance, jammers, pelengators, radioelectronic warfare stations....
All this is playing huge role in this shitty war.
Ppl easier might notice claims about number of killed soldiers, to see territory gains in sq km2 etc.
To value destroyed radioelectronic warfare stations, ammo depots ....is more difficult and .... such damage might be done when frontline doesn't changes at all.
Yea i mentioned equipment training
Trench stuff hasnt changed since WW1 in my opinion, trenches are still build same way as in WW1 and tactics used are similar. tank is still a tank, artillery is still artillery, only new thing is drones
Russias defensive line is literally copy of tenoille from what i saw in footages
Edit weird how pic came out
There also is stuff that trenches " lines " might be connected with " tunnels ".
Literally you are digging trench 1 line, then " tunnel " till 2 nd line etc.
It is like combo of tunnels and trenches.
World War I type stuff ....
+ in bunkers construction now are used also reinforced concrete panels....like in civilian construction industry...
+ cameras.
For surrvilance are used not only drones.
If it is possible, enemy might install surrvilance cameras like these widely used in forestry industry and by hunters.
To mask them and they might be connected via thin cables and then pic might be get even without giving radio emmisions....
Such solution does have a lot of flaws and not always is preferable, while it does have lesser de masking factors rather than to transmit signal with wireless method.
For surrvilance are used not only drones.
If it is possible, enemy might install surrvilance cameras like these widely used in forestry industry and by hunters.
To mask them and they might be connected via thin cables and then pic might be get even without giving radio emmisions....
Such solution does have a lot of flaws and not always is preferable, while it does have lesser de masking factors rather than to transmit signal with wireless method.
Then there in trench war since WW1 was popular to use periscopes ( if awailable ) for observation.
Now persicope might be replaced with cheap camera attached to some improvised stick and connected with tablet etc....
In 1914-1921 and 1939-1945 trench persicope was worthy thing to have for unit.
Now persicope might be replaced with cheap camera attached to some improvised stick and connected with tablet etc....
In 1914-1921 and 1939-1945 trench persicope was worthy thing to have for unit.
Then there is reality that obsolete things like ....phones with wire connection are very usable despite their cons and flaws.
U might connect units with cables and install phones and there will not be radio signals emmisions at least like from mobile phone or radio gears.....
despite their cons and flaws. U might connect units with cables and install phones and there will not be radio signals emmisions at least like from mobile phone or radio gears....
.
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"Ukrainians living in Russian-occupied areas are forced to acquire Russian citizenship, writes The Guardian. Otherwise, they risk severe punishment and can have basic necessities taken away from them but also be imprisoned or exiled, according to a new report from Yale University.
According to the report, it is part of Moscow's plan to assert its "authority" in the Russian-occupied territories.
Moscow claims to have given Russian passports to over 3 million Ukrainians since the 2014 invasion of Crimea."
Via omni.se and google translate
According to the report, it is part of Moscow's plan to assert its "authority" in the Russian-occupied territories.
Moscow claims to have given Russian passports to over 3 million Ukrainians since the 2014 invasion of Crimea."
Via omni.se and google translate
Yeah, reports about such stuff had been submitted to useless U.N even 12 months ago.
BTW, earlier before 2022 th they too had ....then indirect methods how to get applications.
In Crimea: rumours that with Rus passport pensions might be higher...hope to relocate to Russia and get job in russia...
These " separatists controlled " regions in 2014-2021 th had high unemployment % and not all ppl were ukr or russians....
Still there really big factor for ppl to apply for Rus passport was ....hope to relocate to Russia and to get job in russia with rus passport.
Difficult to blame ppl with real financial problems for such choice.
Well, today is popular idea to use relatively cheap drones to transport some payloads also for civ business.
Considerably cheaper than to rent helicopter with pilot to drop some stuff somewhere.
Pilots are not only expensive, their training takes a lot of time and efforts...
Additonally drone operator doesn't have such health condition requirements like pilots....
With pilots big problem is that majority of ppl applying to learn to be pilots can't pass health check for such job.
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