Retrospective 001: Frank Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz

That's not true, man.
Pele vs Pat Miletich, to mention an American opponent, and UFC champion at that

Pulver vs Uno. Why not?

Moreso though that Pele and Miletich end up in the clinch a good deal I'd say and Pele having pretty decent offencive grappling but again I don't think he really tended to fight like Chuck or Crocop were he'd specifically be looking to avoid the ground, timing his standup in such a way as to limit the potential for takedowns, he was a naturally more aggressive fighter like Wanderlei who wasnt worried about that potentially leading to takedowns.

I don't think you ever saw someone fight Pele with the kind of gameplan Randy used on Chuck were he's exploit that Chuck was focused on the takedown to land on him and then take him down when he had to focus on the striking.

I think that kind of specific gameplan focused on shutting down a grappler entirely carefully picking your shots from the outside really took off in the early 00's
 
This was one of my favourite fights for years! I loved watching MMA back then, especially Frank.

There's a point in the fight where the announcer (Blatnick?) says, "Tito is dangerous because he comes at you with a constant direction!" and it sounds exactly like, "Tito is dangerous because he comes at you with a constant erection!" Kills me every time.
 
Moreso though that Pele and Miletich end up in the clinch a good deal I'd say and Pele having pretty decent offencive grappling but again I don't think he really tended to fight like Chuck or Crocop were he'd specifically be looking to avoid the ground, timing his standup in such a way as to limit the potential for takedowns, he was a naturally more aggressive fighter like Wanderlei who wasnt worried about that potentially leading to takedowns.

I don't think you ever saw someone fight Pele with the kind of gameplan Randy used on Chuck were he's exploit that Chuck was focused on the takedown to land on him and then take him down when he had to focus on the striking.

I think that kind of specific gameplan focused on shutting down a grappler entirely carefully picking your shots from the outside really took off in the early 00's

I mean, even all the way back to the classic Pele vs Patino feud in 1996, Pele's stance and striking approach is exactly the one you are describing.

While Pele had some nice trips from the clinch as the ones displayed vs Miletich he obviously wasnt the wrestler Chuck or Couture were so could still end up on his back more often.

Regarding the latter part of your post, actually Pat's gameplan in that fight was using his strikes to set up the double underhooks that he kept looking for, even if he was surprissed by Pele's prowess in the clinch.

I could agree that it's a style that got more mainstream in the early '00s but saying Chuck vs Liddell was "one of the first examples of an anti anti grappler gameplan" is a very different statement, and I definitely dont agree with it.
 
@moreorless87 and @pankrat

I love where my thread has gone...alot of great early MMA talk here from you too..

Chuck definitely paved the way for Sprawl and Brawl/stand up fighting for the modern MMA fighters of today he was most successful with it...

But Pele had earlier success in frustrating wrestlers and he had lethal striking and understood the importance of reading the wrestler movements thats how he could get those under hook clinch position
 
Great post Canadian Sherbro! Legendary fight. Frank Shamrock still one of the best to ever do it, good to see old guard keeping his name in eyes of modern scrubs!
 
All this talk of sprawl and brawl and no mention of the real Rock, Pedro Rizzo? No Ruas?

King of streets had some great sprawls and Pedro vs Randy was almost a perfect performance by Rizzo till Randy's persistence paid off ..

Lest we forget

images (29).jpeg download (28).jpeg images (29).jpeg


Randy had to have his leg literally drained after this fight...i dont think i ever heard of that since...
 
No problem your on it...while i have your attention is there anyone or anything you'd like to see from this series?

Please add me, as well!

These bums need to learn about Vovchanchin, Sakuraba, Pele, Kerr, Erikson and Rutten. And when it comes to early, well-rounded fighters, they need to learn about Frye, Rizzo, Ruas, Johnston, and Newton.

They should also learn about Matt Hume vs Erik Paulson.
 
Please add me, as well!

These bums need to learn about Vovchanchin, Sakuraba, Pele, Kerr, Erikson and Rutten. And when it comes to early, well-rounded fighters, they need to learn about Frye, Ruas, Johnston, and Newton.

They should also learn about Matt Hume vs Erik Paulson.


Noted and added
 
King of streets had some great sprawls and Pedro vs Randy was almost a perfect performance by Rizzo till Randy's persistence paid off ..

Lest we forget

View attachment 909177 View attachment 909176 View attachment 909177


Randy had to have his leg literally drained after this fight...i dont think i ever heard of that since...

I think I remember an interview where Randy said he had to get part of his quad removed because it was dead tissue after this fight.
 
I think I remember an interview where Randy said he had to get part of his quad removed because it was dead tissue after this fight.


Not removed he had to have it drained or it would of died and had to be removed i think is what he said...it was all kinds of fucked in there after that fight


Amazing he stayed standing.. TBH alot of new age guys would be on stretchers
 
Last edited:
Bustamante, Sakurai, Fontes Braga or Sakuraba to name a few.

I guess Frank had the edge on them on aesthetics though

Bustamante wasn't as well rounded as Frank was IMO.

Saku yes but he was recognized after Frank was.

Same with Sakurai.
 
I wouldn't mind a segment on one of the 3 HW goliaths Kerr,Coleman,or Randleman . They all had a fun career to watch with some legendary moments for all 3.Though Kerr is the only one with a documentary out, Coleman and Randleman could easily have an amazing documentary put together.

Pride has so many sounds that I will never forget. Fedor punching the ground as Herring climbed out of the ring, Lenne Hardt, Coleman dropping knees from a handstand and Coleman screaming himself hoarse while Randleman ignored his instructions.
 
Bustamante wasn't as well rounded as Frank was IMO.

Saku yes but he was recognized after Frank was.

Same with Sakurai.

Bustamante was certainly as well rounded if not more, having of course much better BJJ, plus he had been training boxing and greco for very long time and as a result he took down Olympic medalist wrestler Lindland from the clinch, and held his own in the feet with Chuck or dispatched Menne with ease with his boxing

The recognition regarding Sakuraba and Sakurai that you talk about basically relates to my point about the American centric view. Tell any Japanese about it, or just Frank himself. They very well knew about them by that point
 
Maybe some underappreciated fights from WEC and/or Strikeforce, like Gilberts fights with Thomson for example. Or some fighters like Frank that only get the love they deserve from the hardcores, Miguel Torres springs to mind.

I just googled Torres the other day because I was trying to remember which fighter Mir had been raving about as the best in the world.
 
Hello fight fans,

Since the beginning of 2022 I've decided to take more of my posting here on the Sherdog more seriously ,less about the back and forth and more about the actual sport or sport related content.Thats not to say I wont be busting hype trains or exposing fools but I wanted to take some time on the cusp of another fight card this weekend to shine some light of key fight in MMA's history.Along with these threads I will be making another series breaking down major fights of upcoming fight cards from a coaching perspective as i hope to one day coach and would like to see how accurate my breakdowns are against reality and how well my suggestions or coaching directives would work with said fighters,the first one being UFC 272 Colby v.s Masvidal i will be releasing the break down post weigh in March 5th 2022 keep your eyes open.

For the hardcores this fight should be well known but for the newer fans i pick this fight to start off what i hope will be a re-occuring thread series for me because a lot of new fans seem to think all the best fighters exist now only and the old guys couldn't hang with todays fighters. Although there is some merit to this when your talking about the fighter Frank Shamrock this simply doesn't apply the man had it all a solid stand up game,great wrestling both offensively and defensively ,submissions , ground and pound and a fight IQ to rival GSP and Jon Jones and the kicker being he had all this in the NINETIES.This fight was to be a passing of ages or guard with the steam rolling young fierce Tito Ortiz representing the new age of strong ,huge wrestler base fighters but this "older lion" (get it ex lions den) wasn't quite ready to be quiet.

For your viewing pleasure

(Also lmfao at the commentary back then at some points,we've come along way boys. Goldie trying his best out there the others guys were hard to listen to)

Things to Notice:

This fight was in 1999 look how complete of a fighter Frank Shamrock was , he was clearly the better striker then Tito landing great leg kicks, boxing combos and clinch strikes all while dealing with the takedowns by Tito quite well no wasted energy, kept Tito in guard and even swept him all while never stopping to attack from the bottom.Many new age fighters could learn from Franks approach here on how to fight effectively from the bottom in MMA against larger wrestling based fighters.

Another key thing to notice the size difference , Tito was huge compared to Frank and certainly used it but Frank having the Fight IQ advantage decided not to fight strength with strength a losing battle for sure something Ken Shamrock would try and paid dearly for, instead Frank used technique we clearly see Frank working back to feet in the way we see many modern MMA fighters do today which meant less energy used and in the end made the difference as Tito tired over the rounds.


Conclusion:
There is no doubt MMA has grown and evolved in certain elements of the game since the 1990's , it's however important to take time and remember those fighters from the past who were really timeless in their skill sets Frank Shamrock I think embodies for me what these Retrospective Threads hope to represent as I believe you transport this Frank Shamrock to the modern day MW or LHW division and there is little doubt in my mind he would be top 5 or even champion, not bad for a guy from the 1990's.


Feedback: Please let me know if you liked this kind of posting and any ideas for future series episodes i will tag you in future posts.



Shamrock was more complete then 95% UFC fighters now

The most complete fighters I can think of now
Dj
Mousasi
Olivera
Dariush
Aspinal
Volkov
Volinkoski
Prime Frankie
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,280,306
Messages
58,275,477
Members
175,990
Latest member
gorakk
Back
Top