Retrospective 001: Frank Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz

Bullitt68 said:
One of the most chilling moments of all-time is that moment early in the first round of Fedor/Nog I where the cameraman is on the ground outside of the ring shooting in through the ropes, and Fedor, who is in Nog's guard with his head on his chest, slowly lifts his head up like he's The Terminator acquiring the target and then unleashes a vicious GNP flurry.



There's no emotion, but it's still terrifying the way that he picks his head up because you know it means that he's about to launch those scud missiles, in the immortal words of Randy Couture.
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Ahahaha what a perfect description of that moment! love it
 
Chuck was the turning point for TDD against wrestlers. BJJ and wrestlers were losing their dominance but still vital in the UFC but now strikers were able to be a bigger threat. MMA kept evolving but IMO it sort of plateaued around after pride fighters came in. So 2004 or around that time to 2010. Women s mma evolved the same way but a little faster. Now I think we are seeing the kids who been doing MMA since a kid.

For great champs today it seems like the competition and knowledge is nullifying the past dominant champions
 
Bullitt68 said:
One of the most chilling moments of all-time is that moment early in the first round of Fedor/Nog I where the cameraman is on the ground outside of the ring shooting in through the ropes, and Fedor, who is in Nog's guard with his head on his chest, slowly lifts his head up like he's The Terminator acquiring the target and then unleashes a vicious GNP flurry.



There's no emotion, but it's still terrifying the way that he picks his head up because you know it means that he's about to launch those scud missiles, in the immortal words of Randy Couture.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
Sick thread, @Paolo Delutis i love old school nostalgia threads, and this fight has been virtually obliterated from the Internet.

Stone cold finish too... Tito was never my boy, his style was almost unstoppable ar the time, and so stifling, but I never went for it... I actually like him more now he's quit.

Shamrock was amazing. Even if he did throw the odd fights in Pancrase... I still loved that shit.
 
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One of the bests fights ever.
Also lol at mma evolution. AA is still winning!
 
Paolo Delutis said:
False...

He was scouted at 17 by Carlson Gracie and then became a Gracie Disciple later getting his black belt under the Gracies

By 1999 which is near this fight he had already beaten Wanderlei a year before...

Vitor always had Boxing and BJJ from a young age...

He was called The Phenom for a reason
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Yes but he was absolutely juiced to the gills
 
Buff said:
Shamrock was amazing. Even if he did throw the odd fights in Pancrase.
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Lq9.gif


Are you sure that you're not thinking of Ken? What fight(s) in Pancrase do you think that Frank threw?
 
Paolo Delutis said:
Hello fight fans,

Since the beginning of 2022 I've decided to take more of my posting here on the Sherdog more seriously ,less about the back and forth and more about the actual sport or sport related content.Thats not to say I wont be busting hype trains or exposing fools but I wanted to take some time on the cusp of another fight card this weekend to shine some light of key fight in MMA's history.Along with these threads I will be making another series breaking down major fights of upcoming fight cards from a coaching perspective as i hope to one day coach and would like to see how accurate my breakdowns are against reality and how well my suggestions or coaching directives would work with said fighters,the first one being UFC 272 Colby v.s Masvidal i will be releasing the break down post weigh in March 5th 2022 keep your eyes open.

For the hardcores this fight should be well known but for the newer fans i pick this fight to start off what i hope will be a re-occuring thread series for me because a lot of new fans seem to think all the best fighters exist now only and the old guys couldn't hang with todays fighters. Although there is some merit to this when your talking about the fighter Frank Shamrock this simply doesn't apply the man had it all a solid stand up game,great wrestling both offensively and defensively ,submissions , ground and pound and a fight IQ to rival GSP and Jon Jones and the kicker being he had all this in the NINETIES.This fight was to be a passing of ages or guard with the steam rolling young fierce Tito Ortiz representing the new age of strong ,huge wrestler base fighters but this "older lion" (get it ex lions den) wasn't quite ready to be quiet.

For your viewing pleasure

(Also lmfao at the commentary back then at some points,we've come along way boys. Goldie trying his best out there the others guys were hard to listen to)

Things to Notice:

This fight was in 1999 look how complete of a fighter Frank Shamrock was , he was clearly the better striker then Tito landing great leg kicks, boxing combos and clinch strikes all while dealing with the takedowns by Tito quite well no wasted energy, kept Tito in guard and even swept him all while never stopping to attack from the bottom.Many new age fighters could learn from Franks approach here on how to fight effectively from the bottom in MMA against larger wrestling based fighters.

Another key thing to notice the size difference , Tito was huge compared to Frank and certainly used it but Frank having the Fight IQ advantage decided not to fight strength with strength a losing battle for sure something Ken Shamrock would try and paid dearly for, instead Frank used technique we clearly see Frank working back to feet in the way we see many modern MMA fighters do today which meant less energy used and in the end made the difference as Tito tired over the rounds.


Conclusion:
There is no doubt MMA has grown and evolved in certain elements of the game since the 1990's , it's however important to take time and remember those fighters from the past who were really timeless in their skill sets Frank Shamrock I think embodies for me what these Retrospective Threads hope to represent as I believe you transport this Frank Shamrock to the modern day MW or LHW division and there is little doubt in my mind he would be top 5 or even champion, not bad for a guy from the 1990's.


Feedback: Please let me know if you liked this kind of posting and any ideas for future series episodes i will tag you in future posts.
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Tag me in your future threads Sherbro
 
Great initial post. I love this historical stuff. I wasn't following it at the time and you set the stage that made me watch the fight. And provided the fight too. From other posts in the thread I've learned a lot in an entertaining manner. Interested in reading your breakdowns of upcoming fights. No need to tag me. Thanks.
 
Paolo Delutis said:
Hello fight fans,

Since the beginning of 2022 I've decided to take more of my posting here on the Sherdog more seriously ,less about the back and forth and more about the actual sport or sport related content.Thats not to say I wont be busting hype trains or exposing fools but I wanted to take some time on the cusp of another fight card this weekend to shine some light of key fight in MMA's history.Along with these threads I will be making another series breaking down major fights of upcoming fight cards from a coaching perspective as i hope to one day coach and would like to see how accurate my breakdowns are against reality and how well my suggestions or coaching directives would work with said fighters,the first one being UFC 272 Colby v.s Masvidal i will be releasing the break down post weigh in March 5th 2022 keep your eyes open.

For the hardcores this fight should be well known but for the newer fans i pick this fight to start off what i hope will be a re-occuring thread series for me because a lot of new fans seem to think all the best fighters exist now only and the old guys couldn't hang with todays fighters. Although there is some merit to this when your talking about the fighter Frank Shamrock this simply doesn't apply the man had it all a solid stand up game,great wrestling both offensively and defensively ,submissions , ground and pound and a fight IQ to rival GSP and Jon Jones and the kicker being he had all this in the NINETIES.This fight was to be a passing of ages or guard with the steam rolling young fierce Tito Ortiz representing the new age of strong ,huge wrestler base fighters but this "older lion" (get it ex lions den) wasn't quite ready to be quiet.

For your viewing pleasure

(Also lmfao at the commentary back then at some points,we've come along way boys. Goldie trying his best out there the others guys were hard to listen to)

Things to Notice:

This fight was in 1999 look how complete of a fighter Frank Shamrock was , he was clearly the better striker then Tito landing great leg kicks, boxing combos and clinch strikes all while dealing with the takedowns by Tito quite well no wasted energy, kept Tito in guard and even swept him all while never stopping to attack from the bottom.Many new age fighters could learn from Franks approach here on how to fight effectively from the bottom in MMA against larger wrestling based fighters.

Another key thing to notice the size difference , Tito was huge compared to Frank and certainly used it but Frank having the Fight IQ advantage decided not to fight strength with strength a losing battle for sure something Ken Shamrock would try and paid dearly for, instead Frank used technique we clearly see Frank working back to feet in the way we see many modern MMA fighters do today which meant less energy used and in the end made the difference as Tito tired over the rounds.


Conclusion:
There is no doubt MMA has grown and evolved in certain elements of the game since the 1990's , it's however important to take time and remember those fighters from the past who were really timeless in their skill sets Frank Shamrock I think embodies for me what these Retrospective Threads hope to represent as I believe you transport this Frank Shamrock to the modern day MW or LHW division and there is little doubt in my mind he would be top 5 or even champion, not bad for a guy from the 1990's.


Feedback: Please let me know if you liked this kind of posting and any ideas for future series episodes i will tag you in future posts.
Click to expand...

Would help if you could add at least a link to the fight video or a few gifs here and there to illustrate your point but hey, great idea and decent execution.
Will look out for more.
 
Dirty Frank said:
Would help if you could add at least a link to the fight video or a few gifs here and there to illustrate your point but hey, great idea and decent execution.
Will look out for more.
Click to expand...
The entire fight is in the O.P with build up and backstory included...

But thanks for your comments and checking it out
 
Bullitt68 said:
I agree with you about finding the "Frank Shamrock was the first true/well-rounded mixed martial artist" thing tiresome, but this is overstating the case. Leaving aside Horn trying to blow smoke up his own ass, I think that what is being overlooked here is Frank's style of fighting. Not only did he have absolutely no qualms about giving up positions or giving away time to his opponent, but coming from Pancrase he had a very loose grappling style, and one that was specifically not BJJ but rather catch wrestling. So the "his jiujitsu is garbage" thing is just ignorant, as he wasn't trained in BJJ, and the shit about positional dominance simply didn't register to Frank because position didn't mean shit in Pancrase - all that mattered was the tap. And as we all know, Horn is the one who tapped.
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I did overstate.
I agree about his catch wrestling style as opposed to BJJ but those skills were more effective under hybrid wrestling rule set than modern MMA imo
I dont think they translated as well vs Lober, Sinosic or a green Horn, despite the tap.

Guy Mezger style could be more effective than Shamrock from '99 in current environment imo, even if Frank a more skilled catch wrestler, in a similar way Okami could be a more efective MMA fighter than the great Japanese shooters from back in the day.
An underrated dominant performance by Frank was vs prime Tamura in Rings btw.
 
Frank got me into mma along with Wandy and Chuck. I remember renting this on vhs still in 2005! Lol
 
Jewish Lightning said:
Bustamante wasn't as well rounded as Frank was IMO.

Saku yes but he was recognized after Frank was.

Same with Sakurai.
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bustamante was an absolute beast

different weight class, but a prime bustamanta would be a shitload for frank to handle
 
Bullitt68 said:
Lq9.gif


Are you sure that you're not thinking of Ken? What fight(s) in Pancrase do you think that Frank threw?
Click to expand...
Yuki Kondo, namely...

InstructiveComposedHarlequinbug-max-1mb.gif


Don't even try and tell me...

tumblr_n0flwr6otO1sdqajoo2_400.gif


Don't even try...
 
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