Retrospective 001: Frank Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz

[Jewish Lightning]

Bustamante was certainly as well rounded if not more, having of course much better BJJ, plus he had been training boxing and greco for very long time and as a result he took down Olympic medalist wrestler Lindland from the clinch, and held his own in the feet with Chuck or dispatched Menne with ease with his boxing

The recognition regarding Sakuraba and Sakurai that you talk about basically relates to my point about the American centric view. Tell any Japanese about it, or just Frank himself. They very well knew about them by that point

Fair enough brather. I have a big hespect for Bustamanche. I'm a westerner and understand that mainstream recognition bias is a real thing. It's literally happening today. A big portion of people here think Derrick Lewis would beat a peak Minotauro because he knocked out Curtis Blaydes. UFC erased all recognition of the past if it wasn't from the west.

 

[tuckermaclain]

Tito always felt at home with wrestlers, but he always seemed to wilt with a striking exchange later in a match.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

King of streets had some great sprawls and Pedro vs Randy was almost a perfect performance by Rizzo till Randy's persistence paid off ..

Lest we forget

View attachment 909177 View attachment 909176 View attachment 909177


Randy had to have his leg literally drained after this fight...i dont think i ever heard of that since...

The Rock Pedro Rizzo at his peak form would beat Lewis and Tuivasa in the same night and I'm not joking about this.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

Commentary was not that bad - Jeff knew what he was talking about (at the time).

Jeff also called it at the beginning of round 2 - conditioning is going to be a factor (in response to Goldie's question about tito being able to hang with Frank).

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

Forgot how much of a size difference there was.

 

[IMPmmath]

Pride has so many sounds that I will never forget. Fedor punching the ground as Herring climbed out of the ring, Lenne Hardt, Coleman dropping knees from a handstand and Coleman screaming himself hoarse while Randleman ignored his instructions.

Your right the sounds really stuck out. I can hear them too.i guess its a combination of the quiet crowds and the epicness and novelty of the situation

 

[robbie]

OP:
You are correct, Frank Shamrock was the first true all-around mixed-martial-artist and did possess a high fight IQ. I look forward to your future posts.

 

[pankrat]

we had anti wrestlers before that who as I said tended to focus on surivving on their back or threatening from it but strikers who actually blocked takedowns entirely were only just starting to become common in 2003 with people like Chuck and Crocop.

Isnt Igor the best pioneer of that style tbh, way before 2003?

 

[Bullitt68]

"Frank Shamrock: the first trully well-rounded MMA fighter in history"....

The world doesnt starts and ends in the United States of America, folks. Much less the sport of mixed martial arts.

Much respect for Frank, he was indeed a very well-rounded fighter at the time and an icon of the sport. Said that...

Jeremy Horn fought Frank Shamrock at his peak for the UFC tittle:



"Honestly, I still dont to this day - and I didnt then - I don't think Frank Shamrock is very good. He is look up as an icon of the sport and I understand that, but his jiujitsu is garbage, and always has been.

When I fought him, I was very raw, nothing compared to the modern day jiujitsu we see now, and I was able to controll him, dominate positions, taking him down, pass his guard, mount him pretty easily...to the point I was actually frozen by my success, considering my lack of experience and Frank's status"

- Jeremy Horn

He also says, for the record, that it was in his fight vs Ebenezer Fontes Braga - one of the most underrated fighters from that era - just few months after facing Frank, when he realized what it was like to fight a truly elite fighter.

Horn went 16 minuts with Frank. Braga dispatched him in 3 minuts, just for the record.

I agree with you about finding the "Frank Shamrock was the first true/well-rounded mixed martial artist" thing tiresome, but this is overstating the case. Leaving aside Horn trying to blow smoke up his own ass, I think that what is being overlooked here is Frank's style of fighting. Not only did he have absolutely no qualms about giving up positions or giving away time to his opponent, but coming from Pancrase he had a very loose grappling style, and one that was specifically not BJJ but rather catch wrestling. So the "his jiujitsu is garbage" thing is just ignorant, as he wasn't trained in BJJ, and the shit about positional dominance simply didn't register to Frank because position didn't mean shit in Pancrase - all that mattered was the tap. And as we all know, Horn is the one who tapped.

All this talk of sprawl and brawl and no mention of the real Rock, Pedro Rizzo? No Ruas?

Rizzo was the first truly effective sprawl-and-brawler. Someone like Bas just conceded the TD and got really good at submissions so that when he got taken down he'd be able to go from knocking you out on the feet to tapping you on the ground, while someone like Maurice Smith also conceded the TD and developed a really good defensive guard to wait out the time on the ground without taking too much damage before getting back up to the feet. But Rizzo wouldn't concede the TD. He wanted you standing in front of him so that he could throw punches and low kicks. And while he was never as aggressive as he should've been, he nevertheless showed the effectiveness of what came to be known as sprawl-and-brawl.

Pedro vs Randy was almost a perfect performance by Rizzo till Randy's persistence paid off

This is a bit misleading. This makes it sound like the fight was Rizzo's early but Randy took it away from him. In fact, it was all Randy at the start, who violently took Rizzo down against the fence and just pulverized him from within the guard to where he nearly stopped the fight in the first round. In going at Rizzo so aggressively, however, Randy punched himself out, and Rizzo took the fight over until Randy got his second wind and was able to fight hard enough to take back enough of the fight to get the decision.

Randy had to have his leg literally drained after this fight...i dont think i ever heard of that since...

I think I remember an interview where Randy said he had to get part of his quad removed because it was dead tissue after this fight.

Not removed he had to have it drained or it would of died and had to be removed i think is what he said...it was all kinds of fucked in there after that fight

I don't recall Randy ever having anything done to his leg, but I seem to recall him saying that he still has a dent in his leg from the kicks

Commentary was not that bad - Jeff knew what he was talking about (at the time).

Jeff also called it at the beginning of round 2 - conditioning is going to be a factor (in response to Goldie's question about tito being able to hang with Frank).

Jeff Blatnick is the most underrated commentator ever. Bas Rutten is the best fighter commentator ever in my book, while Jeff Blatnick is the best non-fighter commentator. Granted, like Joe coming from TKD and then learning MT and BJJ, Blatnick of course comes from a wrestling background, so it's not like MMA was completely foreign to him. But still, he wasn't a fighter yet he loved the sport and was both a true student and fan of the game, and that always came through on the mic.

Isnt Igor the best pioneer of that style tbh, way before 2003?

Rizzo was more effective. Igor had a great pancake sprawl, but he'd still get taken down a ton, by plenty of people with subpar (or at the very least not elite) wrestling, and especially if you clinched or followed up your shot you had a good chance of getting him down. Rizzo, by contrast, stopped a ton of shots from truly elite wrestlers, and if you weren't an elite wrestler then you were going to be in for a very long and painful night in Low Kick City

 

[don't ask]

I don't recall Randy ever having anything done to his leg, but I seem to recall him saying that he still has a dent in his leg from the kicks

@Paolo Delutis

Here's a quote from his book:

“By the time they raised my hand and the confetti fell, everything got foggy. My leg stiffened and tightened up immediately. I had to lean on Brad Anderson, my second cornerman and a buddy from the All-Army wrestling team, to get down the Octagon steps and back to my dressing room. On the way, I sat down to take a picture for Flaunt magazine. I saw the picture later, and it looked like I was about to die.

That night, I couldn’t walk. I hung onto my corner guys and hobbled back to my hotel room. I sat on the couch with my leg elevated for the rest of the night, just so I could get on the plane the next day. My leg started turning black. My thigh swelled so much I had problems putting my pants on. There were pockets of blood under my skin I could chase around with my finger. It was like I had an alien stuck in there. I had to get physical therapy and ultrasounds to break all that down. A therapist massaged my leg, and I wanted to punch her, it hurt so badly. I still have a dent in my quadriceps where my muscle died from the damage. It took three weeks for me to walk normally.” - Randy Couture

I found it here: https://ukff.com/topic/140620-2000-09-in-mma-top-50-fights-of-the-decade/page/8/

It looks like we're all correct. I just remember the bit about his muscle dying.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

@Paolo Delutis

Here's a quote from his book:

“By the time they raised my hand and the confetti fell, everything got foggy. My leg stiffened and tightened up immediately. I had to lean on Brad Anderson, my second cornerman and a buddy from the All-Army wrestling team, to get down the Octagon steps and back to my dressing room. On the way, I sat down to take a picture for Flaunt magazine. I saw the picture later, and it looked like I was about to die.

That night, I couldn’t walk. I hung onto my corner guys and hobbled back to my hotel room. I sat on the couch with my leg elevated for the rest of the night, just so I could get on the plane the next day. My leg started turning black. My thigh swelled so much I had problems putting my pants on. There were pockets of blood under my skin I could chase around with my finger. It was like I had an alien stuck in there. I had to get physical therapy and ultrasounds to break all that down. A therapist massaged my leg, and I wanted to punch her, it hurt so badly. I still have a dent in my quadriceps where my muscle died from the damage. It took three weeks for me to walk normally.” - Randy Couture

I found it here: https://ukff.com/topic/140620-2000-09-in-mma-top-50-fights-of-the-decade/page/8/

It looks like we're all correct. I just remember the bit about his muscle dying.

That sounds awful...sometimes in MMA even when you win ..you lose...

Man .. Hespetch Randy Hespetch Pedro rizzo


Great find!

 

[Paolo Delutis]

I agree with you about finding the "Frank Shamrock was the first true/well-rounded mixed martial artist" thing tiresome, but this is overstating the case. Leaving aside Horn trying to blow smoke up his own ass, I think that what is being overlooked here is Frank's style of fighting. Not only did he have absolutely no qualms about giving up positions or giving away time to his opponent, but coming from Pancrase he had a very loose grappling style, and one that was specifically not BJJ but rather catch wrestling. So the "his jiujitsu is garbage" thing is just ignorant, as he wasn't trained in BJJ, and the shit about positional dominance simply didn't register to Frank because position didn't mean shit in Pancrase - all that mattered was the tap. And as we all know, Horn is the one who tapped.



Rizzo was the first truly effective sprawl-and-brawler. Someone like Bas just conceded the TD and got really good at submissions so that when he got taken down he'd be able to go from knocking you out on the feet to tapping you on the ground, while someone like Maurice Smith also conceded the TD and developed a really good defensive guard to wait out the time on the ground without taking too much damage before getting back up to the feet. But Rizzo wouldn't concede the TD. He wanted you standing in front of him so that he could throw punches and low kicks. And while he was never as aggressive as he should've been, he nevertheless showed the effectiveness of what came to be known as sprawl-and-brawl.



This is a bit misleading. This makes it sound like the fight was Rizzo's early but Randy took it away from him. In fact, it was all Randy at the start, who violently took Rizzo down against the fence and just pulverized him from within the guard to where he nearly stopped the fight in the first round. In going at Rizzo so aggressively, however, Randy punched himself out, and Rizzo took the fight over until Randy got his second wind and was able to fight hard enough to take back enough of the fight to get the decision.





I don't recall Randy ever having anything done to his leg, but I seem to recall him saying that he still has a dent in his leg from the kicks



Jeff Blatnick is the most underrated commentator ever. Bas Rutten is the best fighter commentator ever in my book, while Jeff Blatnick is the best non-fighter commentator. Granted, like Joe coming from TKD and then learning MT and BJJ, Blatnick of course comes from a wrestling background, so it's not like MMA was completely foreign to him. But still, he wasn't a fighter yet he loved the sport and was both a true student and fan of the game, and that always came through on the mic.



Rizzo was more effective. Igor had a great pancake sprawl, but he'd still get taken down a ton, by plenty of people with subpar (or at the very least not elite) wrestling, and especially if you clinched or followed up your shot you had a good chance of getting him down. Rizzo, by contrast, stopped a ton of shots from truly elite wrestlers, and if you weren't an elite wrestler then you were going to be in for a very long and painful night in Low Kick City

Great information...you went into alittle more detail then my O.P where i mentioned alot coud be learned by up and coming fighters as to how to fight from the bottom...Franks Catch style and submission based grappling allowed him to be offensive from everywhere and flow...he didnt need to always have positional superiority if he knew a finish was coming ...I absolutely love his ground work in this fight and his shot placement is most impressive for a 90's fighter....i mean that elbow at the end to set up the finish we dont even see that today and its fantastic..an awesome weapon to use ..


You were also correct about the Randy fight...again i was mostly just summarizing the fight as this thread wasnt about Randy... ( There will be one coming spoiler ) ... I was just trying to say had Rizzo survived the first and then did what he did in the second for the rest of the fight it would been a perfect fight in the sense he took everything Randy had...survived and batter him...but good Ole Randy wasn't about to let a balloon leg stop him...

 

[don't ask]

That sounds awful...sometimes in MMA even when you win ..you lose...

Man .. Hespetch Randy Hespetch Pedro rizzo

I just rewatched the first half of the fight on youtube and Randy started succumbing to leg kicks pretty early. I wonder if he just hadn't been kicked much in his training...? He toughed it out, though. Mark Coleman levels of no quit.

 

[Bullitt68]

It looks like we're all correct. I just remember the bit about his muscle dying.

Haha, and I remembered the bit about the dent. It's one thing to see shit like Cro Cop leaving his toe prints in Wanderlei's side in their first fight, but to cause a part of your opponent's muscle to die and literally deforming them...that's just wild.

That sounds awful...sometimes in MMA even when you win ..you lose...

That makes me think of Ken Shamrock clearly having the upper hand on Royce Gracie in their rematch at UFC 5, even blowing up his eye in the overtime round with that big punch, but then after the fight pissing blood from Royce's kidney kicks.

Great information...you went into alittle more detail then my O.P where i mentioned alot coud be learned by up and coming fighters as to how to fight from the bottom...Franks Catch style and submission based grappling allowed him to be offensive from everywhere and flow...he didnt need to always have positional superiority if he knew a finish was coming

Yup. It's a high risk/high reward style for sure. It cost him in his first fight outside of Pancrase, for instance, where he lost to John Lober in SuperBrawl. (Incidentally, this explains the differences in style in Ken's fights in Pancrase, where he was very aggressive and took tons of chances, and his fights in the UFC, where he was all about position and was very careful about when to go for submissions.) But once Frank got accustomed to the gloves and the closed-fist ground-and-pound, he adapted his style quite well, and the Jeremy Horn fight is the best example of that.

You were also correct about the Randy fight...again i was mostly just summarizing the fight as this thread wasnt about Randy... ( There will be one coming spoiler ) ... I was just trying to say had Rizzo survived the first and then did what he did in the second for the rest of the fight it would been a perfect fight in the sense he took everything Randy had...survived and batter him...but good Ole Randy wasn't about to let a balloon leg stop him...

I'm just a pedantic stickler and a huge Randy fan. Add those two together and I'm not going to be able to help nitpicking

I just rewatched the first half of the fight on youtube and Randy started succumbing to leg kicks pretty early. I wonder if he just hadn't been kicked much in his training...? He toughed it out, though. Mark Coleman levels of no quit.

Um, is this the first time you're hearing about/seeing Pedro Rizzo? He's not just the hardest low kicker to ever live, he's the only person in the history of MMA who could conceivably be given the hardest kicker ever title over Cro Cop. No amount of training can prepare you for getting kicked by Pedro Rizzo. Even Bas Rutten, a decorated Muay Thai champ who trained with Ruas and Rizzo back in the day, was in awe of Rizzo's ridiculous power.

On the subject of training for Rizzo, though, Randy shrewdly brought in Maurice Smith - not just a champion kickboxer but a previous opponent even - to help him prepare for Rizzo's low kicks for their UFC 34 rematch, in which Randy not only threw a ton of great inside low kicks with plenty of snap but set up the TD that led to the GNP finish with the same beautiful inside low kick/right hand combo that years later he'd open up with against Tim Sylvia. That really started Randy's striking evolution and is what allowed him to then confidently stroll into UFC 43 and take Chuck apart on the feet.

 

[don't ask]

Um, is this the first time you're hearing about/seeing Pedro Rizzo?

Hahaha no, but this is the first time I watched a fight of his since the nineties (Fedor fight excluded). I don't know when you watched Randy vs Rizzo last, but I think even you might be shocked at how immediately Randy gets fucked up by those kicks.

Rewatching the fight was fascinating to me because I know Randy went on to be a double champion and one of the greatest UFC fighters and Rizzo just kind of faded away. Given how much older than Rizzo Randy was, you'd think Rizzo would be the one who'd go on to great things and Randy would be the one to disappear.

 

[Bullitt68]

Hahaha no, but this is the first time I watched a fight of his since the nineties (Fedor fight excluded).

I just had to check. I'm a professor in real life, so I can't turn my "teacher mode" off and so had to give you the history lesson just in case. I see a white belt and a February 2022 join date, I can't miss the chance to teach someone about The Rock

I don't know when you watched Randy vs Rizzo last, but I think even you might be shocked at how immediately Randy gets fucked up by those kicks.

Two things. Number one, that's one of my all-time favorite fights featuring one of my all-time favorite fighters, so I don't need a rewatch to remember it. That fight is burned in my brain round for round. Number two, knowing Rizzo, it's not surprising in the least that Randy started hurting immediately. Similarly, look at Cro Cop's fight with Aleksander Emelianenko. It only takes two low kicks before Aleks changes stances, and then the third time that Cro Cop lands it buckles Aleks and he falls to his knees.

When we're talking about people like Rizzo and Cro Cop, it only takes one or two kicks for you to start reassessing your life choices

Rewatching the fight was fascinating to me because I know Randy went on to be a double champion and one of the greatest UFC fighters and Rizzo just kind of faded away. Given how much older than Rizzo Randy was, you'd think Rizzo would be the one who'd go on to great things and Randy would be the one to disappear.

Rizzo was his own worst enemy. Whatever flip fighters switch to turn on that killer instinct, Rizzo had a wire loose somewhere and he was never able to wire himself up properly to just go out, take the center of the cage, and fucking destroy whoever had the misfortune to be standing across from him. Had he fought like Cro Cop, who knows what his career could've looked like or what his legacy today would be, but one thing for sure: Randy wouldn't have even survived to the cards that night, let alone had his hand raised. He was gassed and badly hurt. If Rizzo had turned it on and not let up until BJM stepped in, he couldn't eaten Randy alive. And against Randleman, he just straight up powered off.

I don't know what was going on in his head, but no opponent ever did more damage to him than he did to himself between his own ears.

 

[don't ask]

It only takes two low kicks before Aleks changes stances, and then the third time that Cro Cop lands it buckles Aleks and he falls to his knees.

When we're talking about people like Rizzo and Cro Cop, it only takes one or two kicks for you to start reassessing your life choices

lol that's true, I can't argue with that.

Rizzo was his own worst enemy. Whatever flip fighters switch to turn on that killer instinct, Rizzo had a wire loose somewhere and he was never able to wire himself up properly to just go out, take the center of the cage, and fucking destroy whoever had the misfortune to be standing across from him. Had he fought like Cro Cop, who knows what his career could've looked like or what his legacy today would be, but one thing for sure: Randy wouldn't have even survived to the cards that night, let alone had his hand raised. He was gassed and badly hurt. If Rizzo had turned it on and not let up until BJM stepped in, he couldn't eaten Randy alive. And against Randleman, he just straight up powered off.

I don't know what was going on in his head, but no opponent ever did more damage to him than he did to himself between his own ears.

That's too bad, but not really surprising. I feel like fighting is more mental than just about any other sport: not in the sense that it's a chess match, but in the sense that it triggers your trauma responses (fight/flight/freeze/fawn) more than any other sport. Trying to keep your head straight through that, for decades, is something only the very rare few can do. I think that's what fighters are really suffering from when they burn out. I wouldn't be surprised if the template for being an elite fighter is to be a sociopath.

 

[Bullitt68]

That's too bad, but not really surprising. I feel like fighting is more mental than just about any other sport: not in the sense that it's a chess match, but in the sense that it triggers your trauma responses (fight/flight/freeze/fawn) more than any other sport. Trying to keep your head straight through that, for decades, is something only the very rare few can do. I think that's what fighters are really suffering from when they burn out. I wouldn't be surprised if the template for being an elite fighter is to be a sociopath.

I always go immediately to Cro Cop and Chuck Liddell, two guys who literally didn't know fear and who actually enjoyed fighting. One of my favorite MMA interview moments ever is Cro Cop being asked by Stephen Quadros ahead of his fight with Heath Herring if he was nervous.



Aside from the fact that Cro Cop so nonchalantly shrugs off the very idea of being nervous and that he is smiling when he says that fighting is his business and he enjoys it, the funniest part is that when he's asked if he's nervous the camera doesn't even have time to pan to him from Quadros before he says no <45>

And then there's Chuck Liddell, who got the nickname The Iceman because he was never nervous before fights. He was always happiest and smiling the most when he knew that he was going to get to - not have to, but get to - step into a ring or a cage and fight someone.

Big surprise, these two psychos are two legendary champs

 

[don't ask]

I always go immediately to Cro Cop and Chuck Liddell, two guys who literally didn't know fear and who actually enjoyed fighting. One of my favorite MMA interview moments ever is Cro Cop being asked by Stephen Quadros ahead of his fight with Heath Herring if he was nervous.



Aside from the fact that Cro Cop so nonchalantly shrugs off the very idea of being nervous and that he is smiling when he says that fighting is his business and he enjoys it, the funniest part is that when he's asked if he's nervous the camera doesn't even have time to pan to him from Quadros before he says no <45>

And then there's Chuck Liddell, who got the nickname The Iceman because he was never nervous before fights. He was always happiest and smiling the most when he knew that he was going to get to - not have to, but get to - step into a ring or a cage and fight someone.

Big surprise, these two psychos are two legendary champs

I didn't know about either of those moments lol. I remember Joe Rogan saying Chuck had eyes like a leopard seal.

We're in a thread for a legendary fighter who once abandoned his dog for a week and never knew what was wrong with it. There's Jon Jones who... well, you know. And even though I love Fedor more than any other fighter and am literally inspired by the sense of calm he carries with him, I can't help but think about how Brett Rogers described being shaken after looking into Fedor's eyes and seeing that Fedor had no reaction to him whatsoever.

 

[Bullitt68]

And even though I love Fedor more than any other fighter and am literally inspired by the sense of calm he carries with him, I can't help but think about how Brett Rogers described being shaken after looking into Fedor's eyes and seeing that Fedor had no reaction to him whatsoever.

One of the most chilling moments of all-time is that moment early in the first round of Fedor/Nog I where the cameraman is on the ground outside of the ring shooting in through the ropes, and Fedor, who is in Nog's guard with his head on his chest, slowly lifts his head up like he's The Terminator acquiring the target and then unleashes a vicious GNP flurry.



There's no emotion, but it's still terrifying the way that he picks his head up because you know it means that he's about to launch those scud missiles, in the immortal words of Randy Couture.