Retrospective 001: Frank Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz

[Fioretti]

Randy I spose is more evolving from the other direction, maybe not quite as good a pure wrestler as the other guys mentioned but a significantly better striker.

I'll never forget Randy's comment in a pre-fight interview before the first fight against Chuck. He was asked if he sees this as a classic wrestler vs boxer matchup, to which he replied: "Sure, but I don't see him as much of a wrestler."

Savage subtly.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I'll never forget Randy's comment in a pre-fight interview before the first fight against Chuck. He was asked if he sees this as a classic wrestler vs boxer matchup, to which he replied: "Sure, but I don't see him as much of a wrestler."

Savage subtly.

That is really one of the first examples of an anti anti grappler gameplan.

 

[Lee_]

This was the point when MMA was finishing its evolution really in the late 90's. 3-5 years after that, you had guys that could beat the champs of today. The low to medium ranked fighters are more well-rounded these days, but the top guys certainly aren't. The last HW title fight was a hugging match on the ground from 2 novice grapplers; Tito/Frank was a much more skilled fight than that.

Frank was one of the first to put solid work and skill into multiple areas. He took Tito to school in this fight. Sad Dana got too butthurt to put him in the HOF where he belongs.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

This was the point when MMA was finishing its evolution really in the late 90's. 3-5 years after that, you had guys that could beat the champs of today. The low to medium ranked fighters are more well-rounded these days, but the top guys certainly aren't. The last HW title fight was a hugging match on the ground from 2 novice grapplers; Tito/Frank was a much more skilled fight than that.

Frank was one of the first to put solid work and skill into multiple areas. He took Tito to school in this fight. Sad Dana got too butthurt to put him in the HOF where he belongs.

I feel like the late 90's was when the tools of evolved MMA were being worked out, maybe actual takedown defence lagged a little behind being more the early 00's but thats were the different areas of cross training were coming together.

I think what you saw after that was that the boom in MMA in Japan meant there was suddenly a lot more money in the sport and that meant there was a big jump in the quality of fighters being involved around the millennium, guys with elite skills who could put the tools that had been developed in the years before to use rounding them out for MMA.

 

[HHJ]

Great war of attrition. Its so awkward that they give Frank the belt after he just spent the last few mins saying how he was going to leave it there and quit fighting

 

[Speedy1]

Your on it , any topic suggestions for future segments?

Thank you very much ..im mostly a cellphone only poster here this was my first keyboard typed on a computer thread haha..looks like it wont be my last cheers

The Jens Pulver upset over BJ Penn doesn’t seem to get much of a look these days but I remember it being a tremendous fight and a special moment in Pulvers post-fight interview. That gets my vote.

 

[textwarrior]

Yeah, Frank was small for a MW in today standards but he was very well rounded. Shoot fighters, you could count them in still if falling on their backs in the fight but it was not so for wrestlers back at that time.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

The Jens Pulver upset over BJ Penn doesn’t seem to get much of a look these days but I remember it being a tremendous fight and a special moment in Pulvers post-fight interview. That gets my vote.

A great mention , sort of a LW genesis retrospective i will throw into my mix of idea for future segments thanks

 

[HHJ]

The Jens Pulver upset over BJ Penn doesn’t seem to get much of a look these days but I remember it being a tremendous fight and a special moment in Pulvers post-fight interview. That gets my vote.

It was sad when he came back and just didnt have it anymore. People saw the Lauzon loss as a fluke but it wasnt.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

It was sad when he came back and just didnt have it anymore. People saw the Lauzon loss as a fluke but it wasnt.

The matches against Gomi and Sakurai I think took a lot out of him before that and Joe was really the last straw.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

I would like to start off with editing your post, to make it more easily understood by a standard reader. You are either english second language, or haven't learned how to write in english. That said, I find your content to be valuable.

"Hello fight fans,

Since the beginning of 2022, I've decided to take my posting here on Sherdog more seriously. I would like to spend less time on the back and forth and more time discussing the actual sport of mixed martial arts. I am not saying I wont be busting hype trains or exposing fools, but I wanted to take some time on the cusp of another fight card this weekend to shine some light on key historical MMA fights. I will also be making another series breaking down important fights of upcoming fight cards from a coaching perspective. I hope to one day coach and would like to see how accurate my breakdowns are against reality. I would like to see how well my suggestions or coaching directives would work with said fighters. The first fight I will analyze/coach will be UFC 272 Colby v.s Masvidal. I will be releasing the break down post weigh in March 5th 2022, so keep your eyes open.

For the hardcore fan, Shamrock Vs Ortiz is a known fight, but for the newer fans, who think the older fighters couldn't compete, this is a gem. Although there is some merit to the idea that the fighter today have evolved, through updated coaching and training and a larger fan base, when your talking about the fighter Frank Shamrock this simply doesn't apply. The man had it all; a solid stand up game, great wrestling offense and defense ,submissions , ground and pound and a fight IQ to rival GSP. What made this even more impressive was he had all of these skills in the 1990's. Many pundits at the time believed this fight to be a "passing of the guard", where the young strong wrestler from California, Tito Ortiz, would easily manhandle the Old lion. The Old lion was not quite ready to be quiet.

For your viewing pleasure

(Also lmfao at the commentary back then at some points,we've come along way boys. Goldie trying his best out there the others guys were hard to listen to)

Things to Notice:

This fight was in 1999, look how complete of a fighter Frank Shamrock was. Frank Shamrock was clearly a better striker than Tito landing great leg kicks, boxing combos, and clinch strikes. Frank managed to keep this striking success while dealing with the takedowns by Tito quite well with little wasted energy. When taken down, Frank kept Tito in guard and even swept him and never stopped attempting to attack from the bottom. Many new age fighters could learn from Franks approach here on how to fight effectively from the bottom in MMA against larger wrestling based fighters.

Tito was huge compared to Frank and certainly used his size, but Frank had the Fight IQ advantage and decided not to fight strength with strength. Frank used technique, we clearly see Frank working back to his feet in the way we see many modern MMA fighters do today. Franks Technique resulted in less energy used and in the end made the difference as Tito tired over the rounds resulting in Franks win.


Conclusion:
There is no doubt MMA has grown and evolved since the 1990's. It is however important to take time and remember those fighters from the past who Pioneered skill sets such as Frank Shamrock. Frank Shamrock is the type of fighter I hope to discuss in my retrospective series because he had many of the skills of the modern day MW or LHW divisions fighters. In fact, there is little doubt in my mind Frank Shamrock would be top 5 or even champion today, not bad for a guy from the 1990's."

Now that I finished editing and can more clearly understand your intent... Frank was good, but the skills in the 90's were extremely dated in comparison to today. The wrestling was mostly a traditional blast double leg, Bas Rutten fought better off his back, the bjj defense was so weak in comparison today. I disagree man. That said, Frank was a pioneer who opened up the mind of many fights as to what MMA could be. That is why he is important in the history of MMA.

My Conclusion:
If you think Frank would be top 5 today with the skills he showed beating prime TITO... you are high.. he wouldn't be top 100... He got ragdolled for 20 minutes and didn't gas out... he would most likely get outwrestled by 170 pound Jorge Masvidal... who I know... is a striker..

Not sure why you felt it necessary to edit my post...and some of your edits made it worse.

But i guess thanks for taking the time to do it even if it was just for yourself to be able to read it or someone like you.

Your conclusion is an interesting take...im not sure how the smaller and wildly inconsistent Masvidal could be seen as the guy to use a wrestling forward gameplan against a submission grappler like Frank Shamrock and win.I think your giving the modern fighters way too much credit while simply not giving enough respect to those who came before but interesting take none the less.

 

[lyndon955]

No problem your on it...while i have your attention is there anyone or anything you'd like to see from this series?

Maybe some underappreciated fights from WEC and/or Strikeforce, like Gilberts fights with Thomson for example. Or some fighters like Frank that only get the love they deserve from the hardcores, Miguel Torres springs to mind.

 

[pankrat]

Simply exquisite thread.

Prime Frank was a machine. The first truly well rounded fighter who could strike technically or hit the brawl button, who could wrestle offensively or sprawl and brawl and who had a comprehensive understanding of submissions from top and from bottom. Everyone wants to talk about so called "evolution" but this version of Frank would beat Anthony Smith like he stole something.

Frank Shamrock was indeed very good and well-rounded.

Said that, this label of "The first truly well rounded fighter" is the classic American-centric view that we see so often in sports (and in so many other aspects for that matter)

There were already fighters, particularly in Japan and Brazil, who were also absolutely well-rounded by that same time if not even before.

 

[pankrat]

"Frank Shamrock: the first trully well-rounded MMA fighter in history"....

The world doesnt starts and ends in the United States of America, folks. Much less the sport of mixed martial arts.

Much respect for Frank, he was indeed a very well-rounded fighter at the time and an icon of the sport. Said that...

Jeremy Horn fought Frank Shamrock at his peak for the UFC tittle:



"Honestly, I still dont to this day - and I didnt then - I don't think Frank Shamrock is very good. He is look up as an icon of the sport and I understand that, but his jiujitsu is garbage, and always has been.

When I fought him, I was very raw, nothing compared to the modern day jiujitsu we see now, and I was able to controll him, dominate positions, taking him down, pass his guard, mount him pretty easily...to the point I was actually frozen by my success, considering my lack of experience and Frank's status"

- Jeremy Horn

He also says, for the record, that it was in his fight vs Ebenezer Fontes Braga - one of the most underrated fighters from that era - just few months after facing Frank, when he realized what it was like to fight a truly elite fighter.

Horn went 16 minuts with Frank. Braga dispatched him in 3 minuts, just for the record.

 

[pankrat]

That is really one of the first examples of an anti anti grappler gameplan.

C'mon now. "One of the first examples of an anti-grappler gameplan" came by the mid '00s??

This is the kind of American centric views I was talking about. Although even from that perspective is way off in this case.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

C'mon now. "One of the first examples of an anti-grappler gameplan" came by the mid '00s??

This is the kind of American centric views I was talking about. Although even from that perspective is way off in this case.

Not sure I can think of too many others before that, basically a fight were one guy was trying to block the others takedowns and his opponents response was to go after him standing instead, get him thinking about striking and then take him down.

Its partly because fighters like Chuck were only just starting to appear in the early 00's, we had anti wrestlers before that who as I said tended to focus on surivving on their back or threatening from it but strikers who actually blocked takedowns entirely were only just starting to become common in 2003 with people like Chuck and Crocop.

 

[pankrat]

Not sure I can think of too many others before that, basically a fight were one guy was trying to block the others takedowns and his opponents response was to go after him standing instead, get him thinking about striking and then take him down.

Its partly because fighters like Chuck were only just starting to appear in the early 00's, we had anti wrestlers before that who as I said tended to focus on surivving on their back or threatening from it but strikers who actually blocked takedowns entirely were only just starting to become common in 2003 with people like Chuck and Crocop.

I mean, even sticking to the UFC scene, Pulver vs Uno is another perfect example of it, several years before.
Pele Landi has a fair case to be a pioneer of that style....way before Randy vs Chuck. Pele vs Pat Miletich, to name a well-known American opponent

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Maybe some underappreciated fights from WEC and/or Strikeforce, like Gilberts fights with Thomson for example. Or some fighters like Frank that only get the love they deserve from the hardcores, Miguel Torres springs to mind.

Cool idea.. WEC did launch alot of successful UFC fighters

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I mean, even sticking to the UFC scene, Pulver vs Uno is another perfect example of it, several years before.
Pele Landi has a fair case to be a pioneer of that style....almost a decade before Randy vs Chuck

I think Pele really was much more the earlier style, he'd tend to look to be competitive or at least survive on the ground rather than actually focusing on shutting down takedowns.

 

[pankrat]

I think Pele really was much more the earlier style, he'd tend to look to be competitive or at least survive on the ground rather than actually focusing on shutting down takedowns.

That's not true, man.
Pele vs Pat Miletich in 2000, to mention an American opponent, and UFC champion at that

Pulver vs Uno in Feb, 2001.