Putin makes Holocaust denial a criminal offence punishable by up to five years in jail.

[Gandhi]

And what are your credentials? What part of Leuchter's report was inacurate?

My credentials are not the issue dummy, he claimed to have credentials that qualified him to conduct the study he did. It was a lie and his analysis was seriously flawed, it’s well documented so don’t play stupid.

 

[Gandhi]

RE: Historians/David Irving

Okay, you crazies got me. Have any of you read what David Irving has written? Or what he actually believes? I never heard of the guy until this thread and it turns out he was a very respected historian for years. The NY Times at one point praised him as this brilliant young historian. He was living the high life in a beautiful residence and was driving a Rolls, all from his research and writing. Much of his work is still taught as fact today.

We are talking about a British guy who moved to Germany to work in a factory as a means of learning the language. He then befriended many of Hitler's friends and relatives and recorded first hand accounts. He procured an amazing amount of documentation, 100s of 1000s of pages, many he originally gave to the German archives.

This is the man who exposed Hitler's diaries as forgeries.

The point? Until he claimed that nobody died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz, he was a real and cutting edge historian, not like all the mainstream historians who for years have just repeated what they have learned from previous generations. The man did his own research, he spent hours interviewing those who were there and he procured and translated the documents themselves that he based his conclusions on.

So, why would a guy that seemed at the top of the world decide to make such a crazy claim? I have no idea, but I sure as hell know that he didn't need to be imprisoned for it.

------

I also looked into this Fred Leuchter guy. He never claimed to be a licensed engineer, which is what everyone seems to get stuck on. He was 'a,' if not 'the' leading gas chamber expert in America. He designed them for prisons here in America. His conclusions have been verified by other scientists.

Nothing, as far as I can see that this man claimed, proves the Holocaust didn't happen and anyone who says it does is an idiot.

Leuchter was charged in Massachusetts with having misrepresented himself to penitentiaries as an engineer, despite having no relevant qualifications; Leuchter plea bargained with state prosecutors, and received two years probation.

He has also been accused of running a "death row shakedown", in which Leuchter threatened to testify for the defense in capital cases if he was not given contracts for his services by that state.

He was an expert in as much as he advocated against certain death systems (like the gas chamber) in order to advocate for his own (lethal injection), which was supposed to be less painful, but actually paralyzed but caused more pain.

Finally his work was commissioned to serve in the defense on a holocaust denier. But I agree it proves nothing at all.

Anyway sounds like a swell guy....

 

[HatchetHarry]

I don’t know what people have against Putin. The guy is an alpha male and has excellent taste in watches.

 

[welcometohavoc]

This is a position I've come to disagree with over the last few years. I think it's actually wrong for its own sake to let them spread Holocaust denial. I think its good for its own sake to silence them. It's wrong that they speak, and it's wrong that they are heard. I no longer feel the need to rationalize on their behalf.

It's the simple fact that criminalizing their speech puts my speech in jeopardy that compels me to allow them theirs. That's it. Fuck them, fuck their ideas, and fuck their couch. They are moral freeriders taking unfair advantage of our goodness. They do not belong in the marketplace of ideas. They deserve to be kicked out of everywhere and everything to the fullest extent of the law.

I'm much more dismissive of stupidity and probably less vindictive. The Holocaust was 80 years ago and the deniers are few and harmless. They're ostracized to the point of irrelevance. I don't see the point of banning denial because it invariably sets the stage for other speech censorship

 

[uptheirons!]

My credentials are not the issue dummy, he claimed to have credentials that qualified him to conduct the study he did. It was a lie and his analysis was seriously flawed, it’s well documented so don’t play stupid.

His credentials were good enough because it wasn't a complicated subject, and there's been no real answer to his analysis other than to dismiss it because they don't like the result.

 

[uptheirons!]

Yeah I’m an inbred Buffoon becuase I know that being an electrical engineer does not qualify one as an expert on the holocaust.

Just like your fake engineer doing pseudo chemical analysis at nazis death camps to generate research for Neo Nazis, real reputable stuff. Tell us more about the Leuchter Report you asshat.

Keenan had to be a smart guy to do so well, I’m sure he could figure this tax stuff out, durrrrr.

Since you are giving so much weight to his expertise why are you at the same time ignoring the entire faculty who rejected his work? Being an expert in anything is good enough for you if the person is a denier, otherwise they are just mouth pieces of propaganda, right?

And LOL at high school drop out, any time you want to compare dicks just let me know, I’m sure we can figure something out.

Sorry but I place more value on the findings of a highly educated academic than the moronic ramblings of an uneducated sherdog troll.

 

[uptheirons!]

But he DOESN'T have more credibility than the entirety of the world's historians

The entirety of the world's historians thought 4 million died at Auschwitz for 46 years until one day they decided it's 1 million instead. That goes to show how accurate their scholarship was, yet if anyone had questioned the 4 million number any time before 1991 people would've dismissed and insulted them the same way you fools insult people who question other aspects of what took place.

 

[uptheirons!]

I don’t know what people have against Putin. The guy is an alpha male and has excellent taste in watches.

That's true, the fucker has some serious pieces in his collection.

 

[uptheirons!]

You seem really invested in this debate. Get it?

Not really, I just find the hypocrisy of those pretending to support free speech amusing when at the same time they believe it should be illegal to question a historical event.

 

[Trotsky]

RE: Historians/David Irving

Okay, you crazies got me. Have any of you read what David Irving has written? Or what he actually believes? I never heard of the guy until this thread and it turns out he was a very respected historian for years. The NY Times at one point praised him as this brilliant young historian. He was living the high life in a beautiful residence and was driving a Rolls, all from his research and writing. Much of his work is still taught as fact today.

We are talking about a British guy who moved to Germany to work in a factory as a means of learning the language. He then befriended many of Hitler's friends and relatives and recorded first hand accounts. He procured an amazing amount of documentation, 100s of 1000s of pages, many he originally gave to the German archives.

This is the man who exposed Hitler's diaries as forgeries.

The point? Until he claimed that nobody died in a gas chamber at Auschwitz, he was a real and cutting edge historian, not like all the mainstream historians who for years have just repeated what they have learned from previous generations. The man did his own research, he spent hours interviewing those who were there and he procured and translated the documents themselves that he based his conclusions on.

So, why would a guy that seemed at the top of the world decide to make such a crazy claim? I have no idea, but I sure as hell know that he didn't need to be imprisoned for it.

------

I also looked into this Fred Leuchter guy. He never claimed to be a licensed engineer, which is what everyone seems to get stuck on. He was 'a,' if not 'the' leading gas chamber expert in America. He designed them for prisons here in America. His conclusions have been verified by other scientists.

Nothing, as far as I can see that this man claimed, proves the Holocaust didn't happen and anyone who says it does is an idiot.

Wtf? Where are you getting your information?

David Irving was never, ever "at the top of the world" or considered anything more than an authority on a narrow area of history (Dresden), an authority which was later upended when his work was shown to be ineffectively researched to further unsupported death tolls and promote a pro-Axis historical narrative. And this was before he was widely regarded as a quack.

I don't know that Irving has ever straight-up denied the entire existence of the Holocaust, but his revisionist and wholly unprofessional historical work re WWII is the stuff of amateurs and propagandists, not well-regarded historians.


EDIT: Also, you "never heard of the guy until this thread" and THAT's what you got from googling him? Fucking seriously? You didn't think to visit his Wikipedia page and see the numerous times he's been smacked down for shoddy work and fabricating evidence?

 

[Son of Jamin]

This has probably been mentioned many times before in this thread but Benjamin Netanyahu recently visited Moscow, could this has been a measure for Putin to enhance their relationship with Israel?

 

[Viva]

Wtf? Where are you getting your information?

David Irving was never, ever "at the top of the world" or considered anything more than an authority on a narrow area of history (Dresden), an authority which was later upended when his work was shown to be ineffectively researched to further unsupported death tolls and promote a pro-Axis historical narrative. And this was before he was widely regarded as a quack.

I don't know that Irving has ever straight-up denied the entire existence of the Holocaust, but his revisionist and wholly unprofessional historical work re WWII is the stuff of amateurs and propagandists, not well-regarded historians.


EDIT: Also, you "never heard of the guy until this thread" and THAT's what you got from googling him? Fucking seriously? You didn't think to visit his Wikipedia page and see the numerous times he's been smacked down for shoddy work and fabricating evidence?

Notice that nearly every annotated instance where he is supposedly discredited all seem to come from the same source? It is a book written by a Jewish author loosely covering the two libel cases he was involved in. To assume that Irving's work as a whole is discredit because of a juries finding is preposterous. It isn't a secret that many juries are heavily swayed by an appeal to emotion. And this thread alone proves that the holocaust is a very emotionally contentious topic.

You're blatantly misrepresenting these men as a means to discredit and dismiss them. Your view on why they're proven wrong is simply an appeal to authority argument that has no real substance other than to achieve some sort of "gotcha moment".

 

[Oeshon]

can we make it illegal to deny the flat earth next?

 

[TheGreatA]

It's not like Russia ever had free speech.

Have they made Holodomor/Stalin's purges denial a criminal offense yet?

 

[Magooglie]

This has probably been mentioned many times before in this thread but Benjamin Netanyahu recently visited Moscow, could this has been a measure for Putin to enhance their relationship with Israel?

Putin is going to tell Netanyahu that all of Trump's moves are really his. Then he'll show him the peepee tape to prove it.

 

[Feniamin]

This has probably been mentioned many times before in this thread but Benjamin Netanyahu recently visited Moscow, could this has been a measure for Putin to enhance their relationship with Israel?

Maybe. But I think if Russia stopped selling weapons to Iran and support Hamas/Hezbollah it will be more profitable for Israel. From other point of view I've see opinion that when Iran buys Russian weapon info about weapon and where and when Iran will receive it goes to Israel.

It's not like Russia ever had free speech.

Have they made Holodomor/Stalin's purges denial a criminal offense yet?

To be honest it looks like to me as a Russian that you have a pretty much wrong opinion on Russia (I've seen your posts about Russia in other threads). Like look at situation with Death Of Stalin film, it's more like soon if you say that Holodomor happened or that's Stalin is not the greatest ruler of Russia you will be seen/labeled as a freak/American spy.

 

[TheGreatA]

Maybe. But I think if Russia stopped selling weapons to Iran and support Hamas/Hezbollah it will be more profitable for Israel. From other point of view I've see opinion that when Iran buys Russian weapon info about weapon and where and when Iran will receive it goes to Israel.


To be honest it looks like to me as a Russian that you have a pretty much wrong opinion on Russia (I've seen your posts about Russia in other threads). Like look at situation with Death Of Stalin film, it's more like soon if you say that Holodomor happened or that's Stalin is not the greatest ruler of Russia you will be seen/labeled as a freak/American spy.

As a Russian I'd expect you to think I have the wrong opinion on Russia.

It was intended as a sarcastic remark. Obviously they haven't, and won't.

 

[Feniamin]

As a Russian I'd expect you to think I have the wrong opinion on Russia.

It was intended as a sarcastic remark. Obviously they haven't, and won't.

Oh. I think in other threads you said something along the lines that communism or USSR are dead in Russia and stuff but I think from different polls and media - seems like majority of people want USSR to come back and they think that Stalin is the greatest ruler (but I can'r remember, greatest ruler in Russian or in world's history).

 

[TheGreatA]

Oh. I think in other threads you said something along the lines that communism or USSR are dead in Russia and stuff but I think from different polls and media - seems like majority of people want USSR to come back and they think that Stalin is the greatest ruler (but I can'r remember, greatest ruler in Russian or in world's history).

I haven't said that.

I've said that Putin and co. do not want USSR to come back because they saw that it was a failure. He had a front-row seat for all of that.

There's a huge ideological difference (if not so much a practical one) between the communism of the past, and the modern Russian "imperialism" or nationalism, whatever you want to call it. The communist construct was established upon the ideal that all groups of people can work together under a single structure, as long as they are indoctrinated into Marxist ideology.

When that failed, and that indeed failed miserably, Putin and the old KGB intelligentsia fell back upon the ideal that a national, or even a supra-national structure such as the Russian federation, can only be established upon a common "Russian" identity. So they've began to cultivate that, and even expanded it beyond the idea of being an ethnic Russian. Currently, Putin is only interested in ruling over Russian folk, who speak the Russian language and who have been born to, or have adopted, the Russian identity. That means that he is a constant pest to any country where a large number of Russians reside, but not so much outside of that, unlike the Soviets.

Stalin is seen as a great leader of because of the patriotic war, most people turn a blind eye to his criminal acts in history, which I made a reference to in my original post. They may outlaw the denial of Hitler's crimes, but there is no chance in hell that they will outlaw the denial of Stalin's crimes. Because denying Stalin's crimes is basically state policy.

The treatment of Stalin in history is akin to the Germans saying that "well, Hitler may have been a bastard, but all he ever did was done so that he could take down an even bigger bastard in Stalin, so it's all good".

 

[Seaside]

Well I don't know. If you judge by Russian political TV shows they think and say that Poland is the most pro-American European country and the most anti-Russian country in the world. I think not so long ago there were some project between multiple countries related to concentration camp Sobibor and Poland kicked Russia or asked to kick Russia from this project. And I think in Russian media they are still very butthurt about that thing. Plus, they take in Ukrainians as a students and as a workers and seems like recently it's like if you support Ukraine it means that you don't support Russia or Russia sees you as anti-Russian.

i know i am saying it is my prediction that will happen within Poland. A young nationalist pole might come to see that thates Russia is not they enemy.

The entirety of the world's historians thought 4 million died at Auschwitz for 46 years until one day they decided it's 1 million instead. That goes to show how accurate their scholarship was, yet if anyone had questioned the 4 million number any time before 1991 people would've dismissed and insulted them the same way you fools insult people who question other aspects of what took place.

This was ready explained to you they did not count all those millions as jewish. Only 1 million so the number reduced was non jewish people mainly soviet prisoners. The soviets inflated the number.

Wtf? Where are you getting your information?

David Irving was never, ever "at the top of the world" or considered anything more than an authority on a narrow area of history (Dresden), an authority which was later upended when his work was shown to be ineffectively researched to further unsupported death tolls and promote a pro-Axis historical narrative. And this was before he was widely regarded as a quack.

I don't know that Irving has ever straight-up denied the entire existence of the Holocaust, but his revisionist and wholly unprofessional historical work re WWII is the stuff of amateurs and propagandists, not well-regarded historians.


EDIT: Also, you "never heard of the guy until this thread" and THAT's what you got from googling him? Fucking seriously? You didn't think to visit his Wikipedia page and see the numerous times he's been smacked down for shoddy work and fabricating evidence?

Abig is a holocaust 'revisionist' which means basically denier or someone who thinks only like 200000 died. The person you are arguing with is same one who claims care about human rights but never mention abuse or horrors in Muslim world or African world or anywhere else but only in Israel against Palestinians. Abig also is one of those 'anti Zionists'.