'Prometheus' and 'Alien Covenant' explained

[BisexualMMA]

Honestly I don't understand why all the hate for the film's. I loved both Prometheus and Covenant. I'm starting to think it's the die hard fans that didn't like the film's due to the plot holes. I'm not the biggest fan of the franchise to begin with so I guess it didn't bother me as much.

But I can't take people seriously when they say they were bored or that they were practically sleeping through the movies.

The plot holes didn't do the movies any favors but if you actually cared about the movie Alien before going into Prometheus, then seeing the space jockey revealed as a tall bald guy in a suit is massively off putting.

That was absolutely not a bald guy in a suit in Alien. It was an alien species fused to its spaceship. Prometheus took something very intriguing and mysterious and made it more or less the least creative thing possible.

I find the engineer stuff interesting enough, but that was a story to tell elsewhere. If they really wanted to tell that creation origins stuff in the Alien franchise then so be it, but going in and undoing the intent of the first film is pretty disappointing.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

God Prometheus and Covenant are so dumb.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

The plot holes didn't do the movies any favors but if you actually cared about the movie Alien before going into Prometheus, then seeing the space jockey revealed as a tall bald guy in a suit is massively off putting.

That was absolutely not a bald guy in a suit in Alien. It was an alien species fused to its spaceship. Prometheus took something very intriguing and mysterious and made it more or less the least creative thing possible.

I find the engineer stuff interesting enough, but that was a story to tell elsewhere. If they really wanted to tell that creation origins stuff in the Alien franchise then so be it, but going in and undoing the intent of the first film is pretty disappointing.

Space Jockey? Was this some character in Alien?

Is the whole engineer angle some sort of disruption to this space Jockey continuity which angers the super fans?

I thought the engineers were cool as shit.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

The plot holes didn't do the movies any favors but if you actually cared about the movie Alien before going into Prometheus, then seeing the space jockey revealed as a tall bald guy in a suit is massively off putting.

That was absolutely not a bald guy in a suit in Alien. It was an alien species fused to its spaceship. Prometheus took something very intriguing and mysterious and made it more or less the least creative thing possible.

I find the engineer stuff interesting enough, but that was a story to tell elsewhere. If they really wanted to tell that creation origins stuff in the Alien franchise then so be it, but going in and undoing the intent of the first film is pretty disappointing.

They fucking ruined the space jockey. That’s my biggest problem (among many) with Prometheus. That movie and Covenant have basically no redeeming qualities as far as I’m concerned.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Space Jockey? Was this some character in Alien?

Is the whole engineer angle some sort of disruption to this space Jockey continuity which angers the super fans?

I thought the engineers were cool as shit.

Finding this thing is what starts the whole story in the 1979 movie. It came to be known as the Space Jockey over the years.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

Space Jockey? Was this some character in Alien?

Is the whole engineer angle some sort of disruption to this space Jockey continuity which angers the super fans?

I thought the engineers were cool as shit.

The Space Jockey is the name attributed to the fossilized Engineer that they found piloting the derelict ship in Alien

 

[BisexualMMA]

They fucking ruined the space jockey. That’s my biggest problem (among many) with Prometheus. That movie and Covenant have basically no redeeming qualities as far as I’m concerned.

Yeah that was my biggest problem with Prometheus, though it had its share.

Covenant has nothing going for it except the David and Walter stuff, almost all of which I find to be worth watching in a movie that has about zero minutes I would watch again otherwise.

Prometheus... Well, the movie looked good. The idea of engineers was decent but I don't know why it was in an Alien movie. Fassbender was good. I guess Noomi Rapace managed to get me somewhat invested in her character. That's about where my praise ends I think.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

Finding this thing is what starts the whole story in the 1979 movie. It came to be known as the Space Jockey over the years.

I think I'll understand the criticism a bit more by watching the Alien series first. Growing up I only ever watched bits and pieces so I don't actually know the lore of the previous movies.

 

[crabmeat]

That was absolutely not a bald guy in a suit in Alien. It was an alien species fused to its spaceship. Prometheus took something very intriguing and mysterious and made it more or less the least creative thing possible.

Yup. It was supposed to remain unanswered and be a enhancement to the environment. The only person that knows was H.R. Giger, and it would be about something really kinky.

 

[Hannibal Lector]

No fuck you guys I liked these movies. You guys can go fuck yourselves lol.

 

[crabmeat]

No fuck you guys I liked these movies. You guys can go fuck yourselves lol.

Eat me.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

The plot holes didn't do the movies any favors but if you actually cared about the movie Alien before going into Prometheus, then seeing the space jockey revealed as a tall bald guy in a suit is massively off putting.

That was absolutely not a bald guy in a suit in Alien. It was an alien species fused to its spaceship. Prometheus took something very intriguing and mysterious and made it more or less the least creative thing possible.

I find the engineer stuff interesting enough, but that was a story to tell elsewhere. If they really wanted to tell that creation origins stuff in the Alien franchise then so be it, but going in and undoing the intent of the first film is pretty disappointing.

The first film does I think give a sense of something much deeper and stranger, of a kind of unknowable Lovecraft dread of this ancient civilisation so far beyond us we can barely understand it with the Jockey as basically part of a bio engineered ship from millions of years ago.

Still though I wouldnt say this aspect was THAT terrible, I could have gone a long with it if the film as a whole was well done but the glaring flaw was I think a truely terrible script from Kurtzman that descends into just a pointless series of dumb events.

 

[BisexualMMA]

The first film does I think give a sense of something much deeper and stranger, of a kind of unknowable Lovecraft dread of this ancient civilisation so far beyond us we can barely understand it with the Jockey as basically part of a bio engineered ship from millions of years ago.

Still though I wouldnt say this aspect was THAT terrible, I could have gone a long with it if the film as a whole was well done but the glaring flaw was I think a truely terrible script from Kurtzman that descends into just a pointless series of dumb events.

Sure I was open to the engineer stuff if that's the way they wanted to go. But the guy in a suit thing was like Rian Johnson "bet you didn't guess that" stuff, more or less as a foundation of the story.

It was like they wanted to do a bunch of big picture origins of life stuff, and then they also figured they could Rian Johnson the Space Jockey, and then just mashed the two together. And then as you say buttressed it all with a questionable script.

I think this story would have been better done as just something entirely different that one could conclude was in the same universe, I guess the way Soldier and Blade Runner seem to be. Then they could come around and link up through some other references or aesthetic commonalities. I don't really think the Space Jockey should have been the hinge between the two quasi-franchises.

But yes I would have probably been more accepting of it with better execution.

As it currently stands the entire thing is random and out of whack. They had a far more dangerous and quick working pathogen in both Prometheus and Covenant. They aren't even building toward Alien. The alien life cycle in the future is now way less efficient than what existed beforehand...invisible spores everywhere that go into your ears and make a xenomorph burst out of you in five minutes. Alien has been undermined on multiple levels.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Sure I was open to the engineer stuff if that's the way they wanted to go. But the guy in a suit thing was like Rian Johnson "bet you didn't guess that" stuff, more or less as a foundation of the story.

It was like they wanted to do a bunch of big picture origins of life stuff, and then they also figured they could Rian Johnson the Space Jockey, and then just mashed the two together. And then as you say buttressed it all with a questionable script.

I think this story would have been better done as just something entirely different that one could conclude was in the same universe, I guess the way Soldier and Blade Runner seem to be. Then they could come around and link up through some other references or aesthetic commonalities. I don't really think the Space Jockey should have been the hinge between the two quasi-franchises.

But yes I would have probably been more accepting of it with better execution.

As it currently stands the entire thing is random and out of whack. They had a far more dangerous and quick working pathogen in both Prometheus and Covenant. They aren't even building toward Alien. The alien life cycle is now way less efficient than what existed beforehand...invisible spores everywhere that go into your ears and make a xenomorph burst out of you in five minutes. Alien has been undermined on multiple levels.

I believe the original idea was a bit more in that direction wasnt it? I remember Scott commenting that it would be a story within the same universe without much direct connection to Alien years beforehand. It is always the temptation with these franchises though isnt it? Studio execs espeically will always be pushing for as many references and callbacks as possible.

The airborn Alien thing was actually lifted from an early WIlliam Gibson script for Alien 3 were humans messing around with Alien DNA creates an airborn version, more of a direct Aliens sequel with Hicks and Bishop as the main characters.

I think you could actually argue Finchers Alien 3 was the end of these kinds of franchises being original, after that point the studio policy always seemed to be "give them what they want" even if the end result often failed to do that.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I believe the original idea was a bit more in that direction wasnt it? I remember Scott commenting that it would be a story within the same universe without much direct connection to Alien years beforehand. It is always the temptation with these franchises though isnt it? Studio execs espeically will always be pushing for as many references and callbacks as possible.

The airborn Alien thing was actually lifted from an early WIlliam Gibson script for Alien 3 were humans messing around with Alien DNA creates an airborn version, more of a direct Aliens sequel with Hicks and Bishop as the main characters.

I think you could actually argue Finchers Alien 3 was the end of these kinds of franchises being original, after that point the studio policy always seemed to be "give them what they want" even if the end result often failed to do that.

Having them distill a more deadly pathogen in the future is more sensible than in the past. It was just one more way that they were careless about the whole thing. Human technology is more advanced in the past than in the future? Who cares. The alien bioweapon is more advanced in the past than in the future? Who cares. Hey look over there, a giant squid and a space cobra.

Alien 3 as the end of these franchises being original... Let's see, that was about 1992. Yeah I can't really think of a later example of originality in such franchises for the next stretch of time.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Having them distill a more deadly pathogen in the future is more sensible than in the past. It was just one more way that they were careless about the whole thing. Human technology is more advanced in the past than in the future? Who cares. The alien bioweapon is more advanced in the past than in the future? Who cares. Hey look over there, a giant squid and a space cobra.

Alien 3 as the end of these franchises being original... Let's see, that was about 1992. Yeah I can't really think of a later example of originality in such franchises for the next stretch of time.

Pretty much, its Abrams style plotting hoping if you throw stuff at the audience fast enough they won't have time to think whether it makes logical or dramatic sense or not. People are going to look back at his little cabal in years to come and think "what the hell was hollywood thinking going with this nonsense?".

The sad thing is parts of the Scott prequels(that sound like they existed pre Kurtzman) do feel like some of the only original stuff we've gotten from the Alien/Terminator/Predator axis since Alien 3 just put into service for such poorly written cinema, I'd guess its part of the reason why the hate is so extreme as you can see unrealized potential there that just isnt present pretty much all the other latter day films in those franchises.

 

[BisexualMMA]

The sad thing is parts of the Scott prequels(that sound like they existed pre Kurtzman) do feel like some of the only original stuff we've gotten from the Alien/Terminator/Predator axis since Alien 3 just put into service for such poorly written cinema, I'd guess its part of the reason why the hate is so extreme as you can see unrealized potential there that just isnt present pretty much all the other latter day films in those franchises.

I think it's that plus the space jockey / man in suit thing is also consistent with the irreverence current filmmakers are showing for the franchises they are joining late in the game. Johnson and Star Wars, Feig and Ghostbusters, Tim Miller and Terminator. The hell with Luke, the hell with Ackbar, the hell with the Space Jockey, the hell with Kyle Reese and John Connor...

I think the fact that it was Ridley Scott himself showing that irreverence felt a bit like betrayal to a lot of people. Ridley, you were the chosen one, you were supposed to bring balance to Alien...

And his attitude was pretty George Lucas. "It's mine and I'll poop on it if I want to."

 

[San Marino]

Sigourney Weaver is due for a comeback. Is that Christian Bale on the poster? If so, this should be good. Disney purchased 20th Century Fox for $71.3 billion in March of 2019. It plans to make a few more 'Alien' movies.

 

[San Marino]

Finding this thing is what starts the whole story in the 1979 movie. It came to be known as the Space Jockey over the years.

Notice the hole in it's chest. I believe there was a revolt between two groups of 'Engineers' on the original ship (Prometheus). Those that wanted to destroy Earth and those that wanted to save it. There will be a new type of 'Engineers' in the new Alien film.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Notice the hole in it's chest. I believe there was a revolt between two groups of 'Engineers' on the original ship. Those that wanted to destroy Earth and those that wanted to save it. There will be a new type of 'Engineers' in the new Alien film.

Well that's a reasonable interpretation if you are going to work Prometheus into what you see in Alien.

What I see there is a biomechanoid alien that isn't an engineer in a suit who was transporting eggs who knows where and one of them got out who knows when and facehuggered him.

But yeah, if they are going to be engineers then what you propose seems to work.