Penn vs Edgar II (Spoiler)

[randomg1t]

Enough with the "if Penn worked more on his cardio" thing. Penn has gone into the championship rounds 7 times in his career. His cardio is fine. Sure he slows down towards the end of a long fight but so does almost everyone. He was going strong in round 4 against Florian and round 5 against Sanchez. The real problem with BJ is mental toughness. He is the perfect example of a naturally talented guy that has never had to work hard to be good. He has been sure that his talent was enough and, frankly, he had a lot of accomplishments to back that up.

Not only that he has always had an excuse that prevented him from looking deep inside himself when he lost. He was too young against Pulver, he was too small against Lyoto, he thought he won against GSP, hurt his rib against hughes, GSP was too big and greased, He had a cold against Frankie. Some of them were legit and others weren't but in BJ's mind, BJ didn't lose because he wasn't good enough but because of some other factor outside of his control.

Compare that to, say, GSP's approach. He lost to Matt hughes because he was in awe of him and didn't think he belonged. He worked on that and got better for it. Against Serra, he was in awe of himself and didn't think Serra belonged. He recognized that and fixed it.

Fighting is easy when your winning, it is hard when you are on the losing side and have to come back and BJ has never done things that are hard for him.

in a way i agree with you.

but then again you're calling him a quitter when he not only got beaten by GSP but absolutely demolished and humiliated - yet came back and unleashed an asswhoopin on florian and sanchez. he might not have the never say die attitude of someone like nog who will fight you till the last second, but he isn't exactly a bitch that crumbles under any resistance.

and people love to just say "oh he never admits he was outclassed", well he said after this fight that frankie beat him and gave no reasons why. and he hasn't mentioned anything about the first fight in the buildup.

you see he's a huge overachiever. no lightweight should be fighting at 170 and winning championships or even fighting at HW and losing split decisions to would-be world beaters. people tend to get impressed by such things and when a guy like that gets run over twice by an energetic LW they don't just shrug it off but look for a possible cause or difference in performance by penn.

and i don't give two fucks if anyone calls it an excuse but BJ didn't look the same in his fights vs frankie compared to his last 2 title defenses. he just didn't. vs florian and sanchez he was going apeshit on them in the later rounds, vs frankie he was slow after 2. hell, in the rematch he was slow even when the fight started - slow and sluggish.

he has issues and they're most likely psychological but they affect his physical preparation as well - but people will always think about how great he could do if he overcame those. and honestly, i can't say i've ever seen a more skilled fighter.

 

[Tony Manifold]

in a way i agree with you.

but then again you're calling him a quitter when he not only got beaten by GSP but absolutely demolished and humiliated - yet came back and unleashed an asswhoopin on florian and sanchez. he might not have the never say die attitude of someone like nog who will fight you till the last second, but he isn't exactly a bitch that crumbles under any resistance.

and people love to just say "oh he never admits he was outclassed", well he said after this fight that frankie beat him and gave no reasons why. and he hasn't mentioned anything about the first fight in the buildup.

you see he's a huge overachiever. no lightweight should be fighting at 170 and winning championships or even fighting at HW and losing split decisions to would-be world beaters. people tend to get impressed by such things and when a guy like that gets run over twice by an energetic LW they don't just shrug it off but look for a possible cause or difference in performance by penn.

and i don't give two fucks if anyone calls it an excuse but BJ didn't look the same in his fights vs frankie compared to his last 2 title defenses. he just didn't. vs florian and sanchez he was going apeshit on them in the later rounds, vs frankie he was slow after 2. hell, in the rematch he was slow even when the fight started - slow and sluggish.

he has issues and they're most likely psychological but they affect his physical preparation as well - but people will always think about how great he could do if he overcame those. and honestly, i can't say i've ever seen a more skilled fighter.

Actually BJ isn't really a quitter. He is tough as hell and will hang in there for a long time but he just doesn't have the mental strength to fight back from a deficit.

His camp mentioned that he was sick prior to the edgar fight. Some of his excuses are legit. Lyoto was a HW when Penn fought him and losing to him was nothing to be ashamed of but BJ has lost enough times in his career, even when he has been the favorite, that he is long past the time when a quote unquote True Champion would have tried to get better. BJ is essentially the same fighter he has been his entire career. His boxing is a bit sharper but really he hasn't evolved. Because the BJ of 10 years ago is still pretty damn good by today's standards.

Let's imagine for a second that BJ had GSP' work ethic and approach to training. Just think about it for a second. This is the guy who was one of the fastest BB in the history of BJJ. Compare that BJ to the BJ you see in the cage everytime he fights. He could be an olympic level wrestler and pro level boxer by know if he wanted to, he is that talented. instead we have a slightly improved technically and more than slightly older version of BJ penn.

 

[knoxpk]

Actually BJ isn't really a quitter. He is tough as hell and will hang in there for a long time but he just doesn't have the mental strength to fight back from a deficit.

His camp mentioned that he was sick prior to the edgar fight. Some of his excuses are legit. Lyoto was a HW when Penn fought him and losing to him was nothing to be ashamed of but BJ has lost enough times in his career, even when he has been the favorite, that he is long past the time when a quote unquote True Champion would have tried to get better. BJ is essentially the same fighter he has been his entire career. His boxing is a bit sharper but really he hasn't evolved. Because the BJ of 10 years ago is still pretty damn good by today's standards.

Let's imagine for a second that BJ had GSP' work ethic and approach to training. Just think about it for a second. This is the guy who was one of the fastest BB in the history of BJJ. Compare that BJ to the BJ you see in the cage everytime he fights. He could be an olympic level wrestler and pro level boxer by know if he wanted to, he is that talented. instead we have a slightly improved technically and more than slightly older version of BJ penn.

Yeah I know its a tough game but he does seem to be sick or injured in some of his losses. Sick for Edgar and the old popped rib against hughes.

 

[MMA junkie]

BJ needs to change up camps. Working with Randy would be great for him.

 

[randomg1t]

Actually BJ isn't really a quitter. He is tough as hell and will hang in there for a long time but he just doesn't have the mental strength to fight back from a deficit.

His camp mentioned that he was sick prior to the edgar fight. Some of his excuses are legit. Lyoto was a HW when Penn fought him and losing to him was nothing to be ashamed of but BJ has lost enough times in his career, even when he has been the favorite, that he is long past the time when a quote unquote True Champion would have tried to get better. BJ is essentially the same fighter he has been his entire career. His boxing is a bit sharper but really he hasn't evolved. Because the BJ of 10 years ago is still pretty damn good by today's standards.

Let's imagine for a second that BJ had GSP' work ethic and approach to training. Just think about it for a second. This is the guy who was one of the fastest BB in the history of BJJ. Compare that BJ to the BJ you see in the cage everytime he fights. He could be an olympic level wrestler and pro level boxer by know if he wanted to, he is that talented. instead we have a slightly improved technically and more than slightly older version of BJ penn.

now this i can agree with.

absolutely man, penn was way ahead of his time when he came on to the scene and was still considered the most dangerous LW out there what, a year ago?

and what you're talking about is one of two things that frustrate me about him. instead of being obsessed with beating georges he should try to be more like him.

the second thing is his inability to learn a fucking lesson. he gets hurt and loses to hughes and recommits to his training and improves, wins the championship and beats sherk. gets into a fight way over his head with a pissed off gsp and again gets beaten soundly, recommits to his training and comes back looking better than ever physically if not technically (and he still outclassed florian and sanchez with technique, as far as i'm concerned). then he runs into edgar and he is neither sharper with his technique nor better in his phsyical condition - on the contrary he looks sluggish and slow. it's as if he believed frankie got lucky with the decision and it would certainly go his way this time. all that talk pre-fight about how "i got my body in shape but i focused more on the mental part of it" added up to exactly what i feared - an out of shape bj.

or, what could be even worse for any penn fan, he just got old really quickly. maybe he worked just as hard and his body just said enough after a 10 year career. let's hope he's still just his old stubborn self, huh?

 

[Tony Manifold]

now this i can agree with.

absolutely man, penn was way ahead of his time when he came on to the scene and was still considered the most dangerous LW out there what, a year ago?

and what you're talking about is one of two things that frustrate me about him. instead of being obsessed with beating georges he should try to be more like him.

the second thing is his inability to learn a fucking lesson. he gets hurt and loses to hughes and recommits to his training and improves, wins the championship and beats sherk. gets into a fight way over his head with a pissed off gsp and again gets beaten soundly, recommits to his training and comes back looking better than ever physically if not technically (and he still outclassed florian and sanchez with technique, as far as i'm concerned). then he runs into edgar and he is neither sharper with his technique nor better in his phsyical condition - on the contrary he looks sluggish and slow. it's as if he believed frankie got lucky with the decision and it would certainly go his way this time. all that talk pre-fight about how "i got my body in shape but i focused more on the mental part of it" added up to exactly what i feared - an out of shape bj.

or, what could be even worse for any penn fan, he just got old really quickly. maybe he worked just as hard and his body just said enough after a 10 year career. let's hope he's still just his old stubborn self, huh?

There is a rumor floating around that he trained only 3 days a week for this. Source was linked from the main page of the UG.

 

[thegreenblender]

His heart isn't in it. Doesn't mean he'd beat Edgar if it was, but he would have made a better account of himself. It said a lot to me when it slipped that he would have retired if he had beaten GSP in the rematch. Remember when he got his rematch with Hughes and Matt was the champion at the time, and he said something like, "Oh, I was so happy when I got the call. I was going to get my title back."

The guy has always taken it as a given that he's the best and all he has to do is show up. As in the GSP retirement thing, it's obvious he didn't have a love for the fighting, he just wanted to grab that last token that would say, "See, I'm the best? Told you." til the end of his days.

It's pretty hilarious that Penn has been looking to punch out of MMA since his first match with Pulver (again, "I was going to retire if I won"). The only thing that kept him from parting was that he always seemed to lose that damn obligatory winner's trophy on his way out the door.

We've never seen the best Penn and we never will. MMA isn't something you work at to him. You get your blackbelt and you gain a reputation as a scrapper in Hilo, then you show up in a cage and get your "See, I told you I was a badass?" certification. You see, the learning STOPS once you hit the cage. All your work is done, you are just going to the winner's stand to get your medal. It's a formality.

All Penn has been about is proving a point and getting back to the beach. Sad, but true.

 

[method115]

and i don't give two fucks if anyone calls it an excuse but BJ didn't look the same in his fights vs frankie compared to his last 2 title defenses. he just didn't. vs florian and sanchez he was going apeshit on them in the later rounds, vs frankie he was slow after 2. hell, in the rematch he was slow even when the fight started - slow and sluggish.
.

You need to watch the Diego and Kenny fights again I think your only remembering the finishes. BJ has always been sort of a counter striker the more his opponents attacks the more active he looks. Look at the Kenny fight that whole fight was basically Kenny shoving BJ against the fence. What did BJ do? He let kenny do it for basically the whole fight at the very end he finally took kenny down and finished it.

Thats what I believe BJ's problems is or at least one of them is he lets his opponents dictate the fight. Even in the Diego fight when he hurt Diego the first time he attacked but then stopped when Diego recovered. At the end of the fight is when he unleasehed on Diego again.

BJ's fights against Kenny and Diego were slow and involved him countering what they did. Against Edgar he could not do this because Edgar is to fast and has amazing head movement. Kenny and Diego barely move there heads when they strike so when they come in BJ is ready to counter.

What I've noticed about BJ though is he will never lose and people give his opponents credit. I mean how can you possibly say BJ is more talented then Edgar after last night? How long has Edgar been training his boxing? How long has BJ? Edgar just went in there and outclassed BJ standing and he's hasn't even been training as long as BJ. BJ was considered one of the best if not the best boxer in MMA.

 

[lechien]

Edgar just went in there and outclassed BJ standing and he's hasn't even been training as long as BJ. BJ was considered one of the best if not the best boxer in MMA.

I am not sure if outclassed would be the correct term.

Nate outclassed Marcus in boxing but Edgar outclassed BJ in boxing. Really?

 

[skey91***]

I am not sure if outclassed would be the correct term.

Nate outclassed Marcus in boxing but Edgar outclassed BJ in boxing. Really?

Yeah really.

He beat him to the punch and totally neutralized Penn's standup. What would you call it?

 

[tonyNGUYEN]

I was there for the fight and it was the hardest thing ive ever had to watch. They showed BJ entering the arena and he seemed like he was totally disinterested. They showed him in the locker room and he looked like he would rather be sleeping. And then during his walk out it was like he didn't even want to be there. I've been a BJ Penn fan for a LONG time, and that wasn't BJ Penn. It seemed like his heart wasn't in it from the moment he entered the building.

As for the fight....i don't even know where to begin. He came out aggressive at the bell for round 1 and I thought he would use his jab to set up a takedown.....but he didn't. Frankie took him down and BJ looked comfortable from the guard playing aggressively with his feet on the hips and a deep overhook. I thought he was looking to alternate stuffing the arm to take the triangle and working an elevator sweep. He didn't.....instead he went for the sweep, failed (which is no big deal), and then abandoned everything to stand back up. That was fine if he was doing it to setup a takedown and get top position, but he didn't shoot once!

When Penn Stuffed a takedown and Frankie snuck around to a rear clinch and suplexed him you could see the life leave bj. You could literally see it in his eyes on the big screen over the ring. In my opinion that was when the wheels came off. After that it was like bj lost the will to fight. By the time he finally attempted a takedown in round 4 he was battered, tired, and broken. When Frankie managed to get back to his feet that was it....bj was done.

Lets be honest about some things. And keep in mind that I'm a huge BJ Penn fan. He has never had great cardio....ever. When bj is allowed to fight HIS fight then he can ration his gas and go the distance. But Frankie made him work and took him out of his comfort zone, not allowing him to control the pace. But that's really not a huge deal. Bj has the talent to finish anyone in the world (at 155) in 3 rounds. UNFORTUNATELY he doesn't have either the discipline or the coaching to formulate and adhere to a gameplan when faced with a little diversity, nor were the coaches he had with him this week ideal for fighting someone like edgar.

In my opinion BJ needs to change things up. His current coaches have taken him as far as they can and he needs to switch up his camp. The Marionvich brothers have done wonders for his cardio and should remain, but Bj needs to get back to a bjj based gameplan. He needs to bring in other world class grapplers(who are fighters) and continue to work on his wrestling. But before he does that he needs to decide if his heart is even in this anymore.

I love BJ and would hate to see him go. But I would rather he retired now than continue fighting half heartedly and ruin his legacy further. Watching that fight last night was one of the hardest things I've ever had to watch, it literally ruined my week, I was speechless. I hope that he finds the fire that he had in the second Jens Pulver fight and comes back with a renewed vigor and a new camp, but BJ marches to the beat of his own drum. It will be interesting to see what happens...

Agreed 100% especially with the bolded part.

 

[MMA junkie]

His heart isn't in it. Doesn't mean he'd beat Edgar if it was, but he would have made a better account of himself. It said a lot to me when it slipped that he would have retired if he had beaten GSP in the rematch. Remember when he got his rematch with Hughes and Matt was the champion at the time, and he said something like, "Oh, I was so happy when I got the call. I was going to get my title back."

The guy has always taken it as a given that he's the best and all he has to do is show up. As in the GSP retirement thing, it's obvious he didn't have a love for the fighting, he just wanted to grab that last token that would say, "See, I'm the best? Told you." til the end of his days.

It's pretty hilarious that Penn has been looking to punch out of MMA since his first match with Pulver (again, "I was going to retire if I won"). The only thing that kept him from parting was that he always seemed to lose that damn obligatory winner's trophy on his way out the door.

We've never seen the best Penn and we never will. MMA isn't something you work at to him. You get your blackbelt and you gain a reputation as a scrapper in Hilo, then you show up in a cage and get your "See, I told you I was a badass?" certification. You see, the learning STOPS once you hit the cage. All your work is done, you are just going to the winner's stand to get your medal. It's a formality.

All Penn has been about is proving a point and getting back to the beach. Sad, but true.

Disagree. Training isn't easy. Fighting isn't easy. He's been in the sport for quite awhile. While he is obviously not the hardest working guy in the business is one thing, but to essentially say he's there just to say he doesn't have the heart is another. It does seem he lacks something, I agree though. I believe it is mental toughness and a great camp.

 

[randomg1t]

You need to watch the Diego and Kenny fights again I think your only remembering the finishes. BJ has always been sort of a counter striker the more his opponents attacks the more active he looks. Look at the Kenny fight that whole fight was basically Kenny shoving BJ against the fence. What did BJ do? He let kenny do it for basically the whole fight at the very end he finally took kenny down and finished it.

Thats what I believe BJ's problems is or at least one of them is he lets his opponents dictate the fight. Even in the Diego fight when he hurt Diego the first time he attacked but then stopped when Diego recovered. At the end of the fight is when he unleasehed on Diego again.

BJ's fights against Kenny and Diego were slow and involved him countering what they did. Against Edgar he could not do this because Edgar is to fast and has amazing head movement. Kenny and Diego barely move there heads when they strike so when they come in BJ is ready to counter.

What I've noticed about BJ though is he will never lose and people give his opponents credit. I mean how can you possibly say BJ is more talented then Edgar after last night? How long has Edgar been training his boxing? How long has BJ? Edgar just went in there and outclassed BJ standing and he's hasn't even been training as long as BJ. BJ was considered one of the best if not the best boxer in MMA.

oh don't get me wrong i'm not saying he only got tired because he wasn't in top shape, fighting and energizer bunny in edgar or fighting a counterpuncher in kenny has to be two completely different things as far as cardio goes, no doubt.

but at the same time we can see BJ not throwing his shots as quickly or with the same precision even at the beginning of the fight. this isn't something i'm making up to cover up for him, it's just clearly visible. he looked out of place, slow and sloppy. and of course as the fight progressed frankie tired him out even more and just kept pouring it on.

judging him by the performances he had vs frankie i have no doubt in my mind edgar is the better fighter. but like i said before people will always wonder what happened to penn when he loses simply because of the outstanding things he's done in the past. fastest blackbelt, world champion right away, enters mma and doesn't even use his bjj but knocks people out quickly and brutally, wins titles in two different divisions... shit is impressive. i think fans will think of him as the real prodigy for a long time to come, well at least those who have followed his career for a while. new people tuning in and seeing him now, then checking out his sherdog record will obviously claim he was always overrated for no reason.

the problem is, bj believes his prodigy status too much. you think frankie went back home convinced he won the first match and that he was going to have no problem the second time? i don't. i think he knew the scores were really close and worked harder than ever to prove a point while penn had it stuck in his head that had he pulled 3 different judges he would've won that same fight.

i still believe we haven't seen the best penn fight frankie edgar. and it isn't an excuse for bj because that best penn might not even be there anymore. edgar edged a victory once and straight up punked him the second time. penn disappointed and it's his own damn fault he did it, he has absolutely noone to blame but himself. but i still wish he didn't fuckup / grow old because things could've gone differently.

 

[method115]

oh don't get me wrong i'm not saying he only got tired because he wasn't in top shape, fighting and energizer bunny in edgar or fighting a counterpuncher in kenny has to be two completely different things as far as cardio goes, no doubt.

but at the same time we can see BJ not throwing his shots as quickly or with the same precision even at the beginning of the fight. this isn't something i'm making up to cover up for him, it's just clearly visible. he looked out of place, slow and sloppy. and of course as the fight progressed frankie tired him out even more and just kept pouring it on.

judging him by the performances he had vs frankie i have no doubt in my mind edgar is the better fighter. but like i said before people will always wonder what happened to penn when he loses simply because of the outstanding things he's done in the past. fastest blackbelt, world champion right away, enters mma and doesn't even use his bjj but knocks people out quickly and brutally, wins titles in two different divisions... shit is impressive. i think fans will think of him as the real prodigy for a long time to come, well at least those who have followed his career for a while. new people tuning in and seeing him now, then checking out his sherdog record will obviously claim he was always overrated for no reason.

the problem is, bj believes his prodigy status too much. you think frankie went back home convinced he won the first match and that he was going to have no problem the second time? i don't. i think he knew the scores were really close and worked harder than ever to prove a point while penn had it stuck in his head that had he pulled 3 different judges he would've won that same fight.

i still believe we haven't seen the best penn fight frankie edgar. and it isn't an excuse for bj because that best penn might not even be there anymore. edgar edged a victory once and straight up punked him the second time. penn disappointed and it's his own damn fault he did it, he has absolutely noone to blame but himself. but i still wish he didn't fuckup / grow old because things could've gone differently.

Well maybe will get to see them fight again. I have a feeling is Maynard takes the title from Edgar will be hearing about BJ's return soon after, if Edgar keeps the title then who knows what Penn will do.

In my honest opinion that was the best Penn we've ever seen. The difference in this fight to me was Edgar, he went into that first fight and I believe he left feeling like he won the title. In the second fight he did the same things but this time he was much more aggressive and so confident. Everyone in my house watching the fight was amazed at how aggressive Edgar was this time out he was much more confident in this fight. I think after the first round Penn was just shocked and probably lost the fight at that point. The only real strategy difference I saw Edgar make was when he went for take downs he would let go and hit Penn once or twice and back up.

It was a great fight either way people say this card sucks but I liked it. Penn/Edgar made up for most of it but there were some other good fights. Honestly though I hope your right and there was something up with Penn cause I would love to see a better Penn and Edgar go at it again.

It'll be interesting to see how Edgar handles Maynard. Putting Maynard on his back is the only solution I can see.

 

[Dr Boondigga]

I think the problem is BJ's Jiu Jitsu against top level wrestlers.

 

[DiscipleOfPog]

BJ's corner is a huge problem. BJ seems like he loses heart after one round of not doing well. He needs a corner that will SCREAM at him like Kenny's brother screams at him. It seems like BJ is the boss in his corner and everyone is slightly afraid of his attitude. He needs to go somewhere where his coach is 100% in charge of him. The only problem with this is I don't think he wants to get coached hard and I don't think he'd stick with a team who's tougher on him.

 

[redaxe]

Found this in the heavies, pretty impressive scramble by Edgar:

I wanted to see more of Edgar vs. Penn on the ground, their striking was a bit boring but it was really interesting to watch how Edgar dealt with Penn on the ground.

 

[Jah1mon]

Looks like Penn needed to listen to his own advice, "Take him down Andy!" "Andy take him down!"

 

[sproggdawg]

Well Said...

The Absurd Magnification of B.J. Penn's Failures Doesn't Prove He's Overrated - Bloody Elbow