Penn vs Edgar II (Spoiler)

[platfox]

Lol, that flamer got banned. Good call Talk show, Drew.

BJ is still a legend in the sport and can make a few adjustments to become champ again someday. In no way does he "suck". Just ridiculous.

I hope he spends a year rebuilding a few things. Training not only with bjj guys but some top wrestlers as well. MMA is no longer dominated by fighters, "athletes" are taking over. This seems to be the trend. You can have all the ground game in world, but if you don't have the wrestling/judo to get it to the ground its useless.

In Bj's case though his takedowns aren't even that bad, he just needs to use them more. A little work on them and he'd be a monster. BJ on your back almost signals the end of the night against most guys.

 

[sproggdawg]

I was there for the fight and it was the hardest thing ive ever had to watch. They showed BJ entering the arena and he seemed like he was totally disinterested. They showed him in the locker room and he looked like he would rather be sleeping. And then during his walk out it was like he didn't even want to be there. I've been a BJ Penn fan for a LONG time, and that wasn't BJ Penn. It seemed like his heart wasn't in it from the moment he entered the building.

As for the fight....i don't even know where to begin. He came out aggressive at the bell for round 1 and I thought he would use his jab to set up a takedown.....but he didn't. Frankie took him down and BJ looked comfortable from the guard playing aggressively with his feet on the hips and a deep overhook. I thought he was looking to alternate stuffing the arm to take the triangle and working an elevator sweep. He didn't.....instead he went for the sweep, failed (which is no big deal), and then abandoned everything to stand back up. That was fine if he was doing it to setup a takedown and get top position, but he didn't shoot once!

When Penn Stuffed a takedown and Frankie snuck around to a rear clinch and suplexed him you could see the life leave bj. You could literally see it in his eyes on the big screen over the ring. In my opinion that was when the wheels came off. After that it was like bj lost the will to fight. By the time he finally attempted a takedown in round 4 he was battered, tired, and broken. When Frankie managed to get back to his feet that was it....bj was done.

Lets be honest about some things. And keep in mind that I'm a huge BJ Penn fan. He has never had great cardio....ever. When bj is allowed to fight HIS fight then he can ration his gas and go the distance. But Frankie made him work and took him out of his comfort zone, not allowing him to control the pace. But that's really not a huge deal. Bj has the talent to finish anyone in the world (at 155) in 3 rounds. UNFORTUNATELY he doesn't have either the discipline or the coaching to formulate and adhere to a gameplan when faced with a little diversity, nor were the coaches he had with him this week ideal for fighting someone like edgar.

In my opinion BJ needs to change things up. His current coaches have taken him as far as they can and he needs to switch up his camp. The Marionvich brothers have done wonders for his cardio and should remain, but Bj needs to get back to a bjj based gameplan. He needs to bring in other world class grapplers(who are fighters) and continue to work on his wrestling. But before he does that he needs to decide if his heart is even in this anymore.

I love BJ and would hate to see him go. But I would rather he retired now than continue fighting half heartedly and ruin his legacy further. Watching that fight last night was one of the hardest things I've ever had to watch, it literally ruined my week, I was speechless. I hope that he finds the fire that he had in the second Jens Pulver fight and comes back with a renewed vigor and a new camp, but BJ marches to the beat of his own drum. It will be interesting to see what happens...

 

[Scareus]

I've been a fan of BJ for as long as I've been watching MMA (albeit not that long). I 100% agree with the post-above. I know BJ will receive a lot of flak, especially as Rogan and Co. were pointing out the differences in corners. But I think BJ needs to start training with other camps and other trainers.

BJ said he brought in guys like Bibiano Fernandes and other smaller grapplers, but none of them can mimic Edgars movement and unpredictability on the feet. His camp rather than giving technical advice was giving motivational advice.

I could rant on but basically I would love to see BJ swallow his pride and go work with GSP. I think GSP being the nice guy he is would welcome him (with an apology or something) and really help him with his wrestling and overall training.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tony Manifold]

BJ penn is a front runner, pure and simple. He is tough and will hang in there for a long time but I have never seen him dig deep and comeback for a win. I agree that a lot of it is his camp. He surrounds him self with yes men rather than guys who will tell it like it is. He needed a screaming at in round 2 and all he got was a bunch of "you can do it!"

 

[sproggdawg]

Exactly! BJ basically runs his own camps. He chooses what they work on and who they work on it with. He needs somebody to assume some of that control for his own benefit. He needs to work with the best training partners so he is challenged during camp instead if just going through the motions.

 

[teamcarvalho]

I just got done watching the fight.....man I thought they would have changed is game plan. Edgar is too fast and his side to side movement makes it hard for BJ to land effective shots.

The Game plan should have been something like this.

1. Land plenty of leg kicks to Edgar's left leg to slow down his side to side movment.
2. Don't try to box Edgar...go for takedowns instead
3. Use jab to set up takedowns and use BJJ skills to finish Edgar with submission.
4.Work on guard defense and submissions from guard in case he is taken down by Edgar.
5. Work on Cardio and expect to move a lot to chase Edgar throughout the whole fight.

 

[Drew Foster]

Man that fight was hard for me to watch... I was praying for him to go for a takedown the entire fight. When BJ almost secured mount and almost took the back I thought for sure he would win but it seems he was too gassed by that point. Frankie had some epic slams in rd 1 but even from his guard BJ looked like he could impose his will on him.

At least Demian Maia's ground game looked top notch last night.

It was hard for me to watch too. I just have a couple of things I want to point out and then everyone else here has analyzed things perfectly. Amazing how our forum has WAY better discussions on fights than the Heavies. Also, much respect to Frankie Edgar. Hopefully he'll get some more respect as a champ now.

1. I was screaming for BJ to go for the takedown. I did this in the last fight with Edgar, and the one with Florian. Interesting to note that in the Florian fight he also waited until round 4 to go for the takedown. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, BUT I think BJ would have had a much higher chance of winning this thing if he went for the takedown earlier. What, was Edgar gonna knock him out? Of course not. BJ's chin is too solid for that. After BJ's first takedown, he was low on Edgar, but did have good body control while looking to pass. Which leads me to...

2. I looks like BJ has tunnel vision and wants to KO people. I guess this started after he jabbed Sherk's face off before hitting him with the flying knee Tony Jaa style. He stood a LOT with Florian and Sanchez. A lot of people said BJ had the best boxing in MMA, me included, and that may still be true, but against Edgar his boxing style obviously just doesn't work. Edgar is able to get in and out of the pocket, land a couple light flurries, and back out. BJ's jab still looked effective at times, and he definitely hits harder.

3. Where was BJ's legendary takedown defense? I mean, he gives GSP (20 lbs heavier) of all people a hard time getting him down and Frankie Edgar, (10 lbs lighter) than BJ is tossing him around the ring? I thought I was taking crazy pills. Are Edgar's takedowns that good? Maybe so.... GSP and Matt Hughes used to have to battle to get BJ Penn down.

That's really it. I would like to see BJ drop to 145 and fight Jose Aldo, but that's just a dream fight for me. BJ Penn is still the most dominant LW of all time, and the best natural talent of all time, along with Fedor. I hope he finds peace and happiness in whatever he decides to do next in the ring and out of the ring.

Also, I noticed Charuto coming out with BJ Penn.

Props to Edgar
Props to Penn
Props to MMA
Props to Nova Uniao

 

[Drew Foster]

Man that fight was hard for me to watch... I was praying for him to go for a takedown the entire fight. When BJ almost secured mount and almost took the back I thought for sure he would win but it seems he was too gassed by that point. Frankie had some epic slams in rd 1 but even from his guard BJ looked like he could impose his will on him.

At least Demian Maia's ground game looked top notch last night.

Maia's game looked top notch for sure! It was funny because everyone in the bar kinda tuned out in that fight, and all of us Jiu-Jitsu guys were screaming at the TV when Maia got close on some sub attempts and we got some funny looks.

I don't really understand how Maia appeared so gassed at the end of the fight, especially when he spent 90% of the fight on Miranda's back or mouting him. I don't know how to describe this, but whenever Miranda got to his feet, I liked how Maia didn't do conventional takedowns. He always kind of angled off and would like take his back during the takedown from these odd angles. Really cool!

Is this the same Mario Miranda that Garcia hit with the N/S choke? Their faces look the same, but their bodies look very different.

 

[Drew Foster]

Vey painful to watch as a BJ Penn fan of sorts...

Great fight by Frankie, great movement, great game plan, great cardio, great takedowns.

However, a modern MMA fighter, like Frankie, perfectly exercising his gameplan, is pretty boring to watch really...

Yes, the idea of a Maynard/Edgar fight for the title seems mind numbing. All these wrestler-boxers are coming in and beating up these really exciting fighters to watch like Silva, BJ, Mir, Nog, etc.

Shogun, Silva, (he made it out) and GSP have to keep the hope alive! (Even though GSP is mainly a wrestler now I still count him as being one of the super dynamic MMA fighters.)

 

[skey91***]

3. Where was BJ's legendary takedown defense? I mean, he gives GSP (20 lbs heavier) of all people a hard time getting him down and Frankie Edgar, (10 lbs lighter) than BJ is tossing him around the ring? I thought I was taking crazy pills. Are Edgar's takedowns that good? Maybe so.... GSP and Matt Hughes used to have to battle to get BJ Penn down.

I'm basically cutting and pasteing it from somehting I wrtoe earlier.

First he uses his boxing very weel to set up the takedown, he doesn't just telegraph his shot and dive in, He throws a combo and shoots when you walking in or covering up.

The sencond thing is chain wrestling

Penn is great at stuffing a shot and he stuffed most of Frankie's shots but Edgar instead of bailing on the takedown or driving him to the wall and fighitng for a leg in a struggle came up got to the side found an angle and finished his takedowns with space.

It was really beautiful to see.

He keeps you off balance and attacks when he sees an opening and he has a pretty big arsenal of takedowns and finishes.

He is also always moving and transitioning to keep you off balance.

That is the way wrestling and takedowns should look.

I liked Maynards takedowns last night but he was just a damn Bully. If he gets his hands on you he is to strong and he will manhandle you down.

Edgar is just smooth and always transitioning from one move and finish to the other.

Not enough wrestlers in MMA cut the corner on thier shots are switch up thier finishes they get stubborn and keep fighting for the same move like Lentz did last night

 

[Drew Foster]

I'm basically cutting and pasteing it from somehting I wrtoe earlier.

First he uses his boxing very weel to set up the takedown, he doesn't just telegraph his shot and dive in, He throws a combo and shoots when you walking in or covering up.

The sencond thing is chain wrestling

Penn is great at stuffing a shot and he stuffed most of Frankie's shots but Edgar instead of bailing on the takedown or driving him to the wall and fighitng for a leg in a struggle came up got to the side found an angle and finished his takedowns with space.

It was really beautiful to see.

He keeps you off balance and attacks when he sees an opening and he has a pretty big arsenal of takedowns and finishes.

He is also always moving and transitioning to keep you off balance.

That is the way wrestling and takedowns should look.

I liked Maynards takedowns last night but he was just a damn Bully. If he gets his hands on you he is to strong and he will manhandle you down.

Edgar is just smooth and always transitioning from one move and finish to the other.

Not enough wrestlers in MMA cut the corner on thier shots are switch up thier finishes they get stubborn and keep fighting for the same move like Lentz did last night

Great analysis. Edgar didn't do it last night but he will also do some Judo throws and leg trips. He really keeps you guessing with his takedowns and throws. I still think Gray will be too much for him once again.

 

[skey91***]

Great analysis. Edgar didn't do it last night but he will also do some Judo throws and leg trips. He really keeps you guessing with his takedowns and throws. I still think Gray will be too much for him once again.

I don't want to get into a judo wrestling debate but those throws are also used in wrestling.

And that has to do with the chain wrestling and versatility, he doesn't fall into what has become known as the stereotypical wrestler in MMA who shoots doubles and thats it.

He uses a wide variety of techniques for takedowns and he used those techniques when he wrestled also.

 

[fourfif**]

I don't want to get into a judo wrestling debate but those throws are also used in wrestling.

And that has to do with the chain wrestling and versatility, he doesn't fall into what has become known as the stereotypical wrestler in MMA who shoots doubles and thats it.

He uses a wide variety of techniques for takedowns and he used those techniques when he wrestled also.

he used that technique from the Gable video you posted where instead of forcing the shot, when the opponent drops and sprawls you drop with him and just drive/drop at an angle. it worked like a charm!

 

[skey91***]

he used that technique from the Gable video you posted where instead of forcing the shot, when the opponent drops and sprawls you drop with him and just drive/drop at an angle. it worked like a charm!

And you know Gable is the king of angles.

 

[Lead]

I think Edgar was shockingly the better fighter in all aspects of the fight.

 

[Mat Nemesis**]

Marionvich wasn't with bj for this fight and do i not think he was there for the last as they had a falling out.

also, I think gray vs frankie will be a good fight. They are both very good grapplers and did not think that fight would be shitted on here.

 

[Tony Manifold]

Marionvich wasn't with bj for this fight and do i not think he was there for the last as they had a falling out.

also, I think gray vs frankie will be a good fight. They are both very good grapplers and did not think that fight would be shitted on here.

I had read that they were still part of his team.

 

[devante]

I'm basically cutting and pasteing it from somehting I wrtoe earlier.

First he uses his boxing very weel to set up the takedown, he doesn't just telegraph his shot and dive in, He throws a combo and shoots when you walking in or covering up.

The sencond thing is chain wrestling

Penn is great at stuffing a shot and he stuffed most of Frankie's shots but Edgar instead of bailing on the takedown or driving him to the wall and fighitng for a leg in a struggle came up got to the side found an angle and finished his takedowns with space.

It was really beautiful to see.

He keeps you off balance and attacks when he sees an opening and he has a pretty big arsenal of takedowns and finishes.

He is also always moving and transitioning to keep you off balance.

That is the way wrestling and takedowns should look.

I liked Maynards takedowns last night but he was just a damn Bully. If he gets his hands on you he is to strong and he will manhandle you down.

Edgar is just smooth and always transitioning from one move and finish to the other.

Not enough wrestlers in MMA cut the corner on thier shots are switch up thier finishes they get stubborn and keep fighting for the same move like Lentz did last night

excellent post-as always great job

 

[PhillyD45]

I have always thought Penn was a pretty over rated MMA fighter. The dude is an awsome BBJ sport wrestler and definatley top calibure MMA but not really a legend in my book.
I think his biggest wins were against Matt Hughes and Sean Sherk. He pretty much loses to top level guys but does however beat the level below.

Top calibur = Edgar (loss x2), GSP (loss x 2), Hughes (1 win, 1 loss), Sera (1 win, Sera was a killer at the time), Pulver (1 loss, 2nd fight pulver was washed up), Sanchez (1 win, sanchez was top notch at that time).

Record = 4 - 6 Pretty good but not legendary unless you are Randy Coture.

2nd tier = KFlo (i win), Big Daddy (1 win), Renzo (1 win, 2nd tier at the time of fight), Machida (1 loss, 2nd tier at time of fight), Gomi (1 win), Uno (1 win, 1 draw).

Record = 5 - 1 - 1 Excellent record here. He was supposed to beat these guys and he did. It doesn always turn out that way.


My real knock against BJ is that he is a quitter. He always has been and always will be. It really is what prevents me from rooting for him. If you take the fight to him he will quit and that is a fact. He is so darn talented but when things aren't going his way he folds like a lawn chair.
You could see the quit in his eyes before rounds when he was tired and Edgar was jumping around like he just ate 10 pixie stix. BJ didn't want to be in the cage anymore.

The real differance in the fight was for every one punch BJ threw (landing or not) Edgar threw 3 that landed. Then Edgar started mixing in effective leg kicks and BJ couldn't anwer ANYTHING that was thrown at him - kicks, puches, takedowns or ground n pound. BJ's corner sucks but it sure would be hard to give advice for that kind of onslaught. Edgar' game is now officially SICK.

 

[fourfif**]

And you know Gable is the king of angles.

I wish I could say I did, but tbh those videos where the most I've seen of gable in a teaching setting like that. All the info I got was second hand, legend, and even myth. One of my coaches I think may have fibbed about having wrestled him. :icon_lol: