Penn vs Edgar II (Spoiler)

edgar is an awesome fighter indeed.

but it's just so frustrating to watch penn get in there in even worse shape than last time. i was certain he'd come in there last night and go absolutely crazy on frankie, bullying him around the cage until he hurt him and put him on his back where he'd finish him.

instead, he was even more inacitve than the last time, slowed down even sooner and seemed stiff even when he got him down.

i don't know if it's his camp, his utter boredom with the sport or the fact that he just got old really quickly that fucked him up but something is wrong with him. and this isn't a knock on frankie he did great, but i wish penn looked sharp in at least one of his fights vs edgar, god damnit.
 
Marionvich wasn't with bj for this fight and do i not think he was there for the last as they had a falling out.

also, I think gray vs frankie will be a good fight. They are both very good grapplers and did not think that fight would be shitted on here.

well, that would explain a thing or two.

although if penn and his camp couldn't tell the difference between his performances when he was with them and the ones when he trained without them they're retards.

i mean seriously, he looked damn near unbeatable vs florian and sanchez and then like complete crap vs edgar twice. if the marinoviches are the only difference between those training camps, i wonder why the hell they let them leave.
 
this fight was very frustrating for me to watch.

he did get acouple takedowns during the fight, but i think that shouldve been the priority. he shouldve used his hands enough to just keep moving foward and take frankie down early when he was fresh. i hated when he finally did during the fifth, it was desperation. shouldve done that from the beginning!

also, i dislike his corner very much
 
He scored 2 nice takedowns and was able to advance position both times, almost taking the back. If he had implemented that strategy when he was fresh, he would have at least had a chance. Poor strategy imo. Frankie took the fight to the mat on his terms, and that's what wins you the fight.
 
Conditioning was his biggest problem though. A professional MMA fighter shouldn't gas after a couple of rounds of sparring. I don't think any strategy he followed would've worked because he just wasn't in shape.
 
I disagree, BJ doesnt usually start to gas until the fourth round. The exception being the 2nd GSP fight where he was constantly being outmuscled. If BJ had come out and used his hands to press the action and set up the takedown he could have finished that fight before Frankie did any damage.

Frankie Edgar is a great fighter, Great hands, great takedowns, decent ground game, limitless energy and a ton of heart. Thats really BJ's worst nightmare( especially the limitless energy and heart). BUT, he has holes in his game that BJ does not. BJ has good takedowns, but he prefers to stand and box until the last possible moment. Unfortunately Frankies speed and energy allow him to get in and out faster than BJ can respond. But Frankie is still concerned with BJ's power. If BJ had used that power to press forward and try for takedowns he would have eventually secured dominant position on the ground and thats where he is a nightmare for anyone!

If Frank takes him down then no big deal, BJ will stand back up. If BJ takes Frank down and loses the position then so what, he can do it again. Its not like BJ has to be scared to move in on Edgar, theres virtually no chance of Edgar finishing Penn. This is what blows my mind. We can all see how this fight needed to go down for BJ, but his own coaches and even BJ himself were oblivious to any form of stretegy. GSP is successful be cause hes very well rounded and always fights the opponent where they are weakest. What is to stop BJ from doing the same thing?


If you watch both fights youll see that he didnt change a thing strategy wise. I think he figured he was sick for the last fight and thats why he had a hard time. So coming in healthy this time he thought he would do better. But why would you not take the path of least resistance? Frankie Edgar cant touch BJ on the ground, and if BJ had insisted on taking the fight to the floor it would have only been a matter of time. I was there and i still believe something is up with BJ, having seen his demeanor before and during the fight. He didnt seem hungry or angry, more like complacent and careless. Hes got some soul searching to do...
 
I disagree, BJ doesnt usually start to gas until the fourth round. The exception being the 2nd GSP fight where he was constantly being outmuscled. If BJ had come out and used his hands to press the action and set up the takedown he could have finished that fight before Frankie did any damage.

Frankie Edgar is a great fighter, Great hands, great takedowns, decent ground game, limitless energy and a ton of heart. Thats really BJ's worst nightmare( especially the limitless energy and heart). BUT, he has holes in his game that BJ does not. BJ has good takedowns, but he prefers to stand and box until the last possible moment. Unfortunately Frankies speed and energy allow him to get in and out faster than BJ can respond. But Frankie is still concerned with BJ's power. If BJ had used that power to press forward and try for takedowns he would have eventually secured dominant position on the ground and thats where he is a nightmare for anyone!

If Frank takes him down then no big deal, BJ will stand back up. If BJ takes Frank down and loses the position then so what, he can do it again. Its not like BJ has to be scared to move in on Edgar, theres virtually no chance of Edgar finishing Penn. This is what blows my mind. We can all see how this fight needed to go down for BJ, but his own coaches and even BJ himself were oblivious to any form of stretegy. GSP is successful be cause hes very well rounded and always fights the opponent where they are weakest. What is to stop BJ from doing the same thing?


If you watch both fights youll see that he didnt change a thing strategy wise. I think he figured he was sick for the last fight and thats why he had a hard time. So coming in healthy this time he thought he would do better. But why would you not take the path of least resistance? Frankie Edgar cant touch BJ on the ground, and if BJ had insisted on taking the fight to the floor it would have only been a matter of time. I was there and i still believe something is up with BJ, having seen his demeanor before and during the fight. He didnt seem hungry or angry, more like complacent and careless. Hes got some soul searching to do...

I'm sorry but chasing a guy like Edgar down is easier said then done.

Tha tis a big cage and it is hard to cut off someone with good footwork who can keep tagging you while they are doing it.

You can act like Edgar has no power because he doesn't KO but his punches hurt a lot more than people are giving him credit for.

Also everyone is saying he could take Edgar down as if it would be at will.

He got takedowns late in the fight. If someone doesn't shoot on you for 4 rounds are you really going to be looking to defend in the 5th?

Also Nobody has been able to hold Edgar down, the guy pops right back up as soon as he is grounded. Even when Penn got his back he was able to reverse psoition, he is an excellent scrambler and great at escapes.

Until someone is able to hold Edgar down,a dn advance position on him there is no reasont o beleive Penn or anyone else could do it.

Edgar didn't play guard like Florian or a lot of guys in MMA do, looks and works for the escape right away.
 
I'm sorry but chasing a guy like Edgar down is easier said then done.

Tha tis a big cage and it is hard to cut off someone with good footwork who can keep tagging you while they are doing it.

I was inside the cage an hour before the doors opened, I know how big it is. I also know that Frankie has to score points in order to win by decision. And in order to score points he has to come in BJ. BJ Penn has fought better fighters than Frankie Edgar, win or lose. He showed he could take down Frankie even AFTER he was tired.

You can act like Edgar has no power because he doesn't KO but his punches hurt a lot more than people are giving him credit for.

Youre an Edgar fan, thats cool, hes a great fighter. But he hasnt shown that he has the power to finish fights. Thats not a big deal, but lets not pretend like BJ hasnt been hit harder by other people and still won. BJ fights for a living, he isnt afraid to get hit.

Also everyone is saying he could take Edgar down as if it would be at will.

He got takedowns late in the fight. If someone doesn't shoot on you for 4 rounds are you really going to be looking to defend in the 5th?

Like I said, even AFTER Penn was tired he was able to take Frankie down. Are you suggesting that BJ wouldnt be able to take Frankie down when he was fresh in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd? If you ask Frankie whether or not he was worried about the takedown in the latter rounds I bet his answer would differ from what youre implying. Also....BJ first took Frankie down in the 4th round.

Also Nobody has been able to hold Edgar down, the guy pops right back up as soon as he is grounded. Even when Penn got his back he was able to reverse psoition, he is an excellent scrambler and great at escapes.

Hes never fought anyone with a ground game like BJ Penn. It only takes one successful attempt at achieving the mount to end a fight. BJ has shown that numerous times against better grapplers than Frankie Edgar. Persistence pays....

Until someone is able to hold Edgar down,a dn advance position on him there is no reasont o beleive Penn or anyone else could do it.

Edgar didn't play guard like Florian or a lot of guys in MMA do, looks and works for the escape right away.

So Florian and everybody else werent concerned with escaping as soon as possible from underneath BJ? Thats an interesting assumption. And to look at that from another viewpoint.....Maybe Frank was intent on escaping as fast as possible because HE KNOWS BJ could be a problem for him on the floor. Frankie is squirrely, no question, but again persistence pays. I have no doubt that BJ could advance position on Frankie when hes fresh.
 
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Youre an Edgar fan, thats cool, hes a great fighter. But he hasnt shown that he has the power to finish fights. Thats not a big deal, but lets not pretend like BJ hasnt been hit harder by other people and still won. BJ fights for a living, he isnt afraid to get hit.

He did submit Matt Veach with an RNC but I agree that Edgar would never be able to finish BJ even in a no-time-limit fight. That fight could have gone 100 rounds and Edgar could never submit or KO BJ.
 
Instead of advice about using leg kicks...or maybe stringing punches together in combinations instead of winging out one at a time...or to go for takedowns...they said stuff like..." He stole your belt!"

That's exactly what I was getting mad about. His corner sucked at giving him advice! Edgar is to fast and has to much movement for BJ to just stand and box with him. Really, when he dominated during fights it was because he was being dynamic.

If all he wanted to do was stand-up, his corner should have at least devised a better game plan for that. He needed to use leg kicks in order to slow down Edgar so he could string together some combinations and he also needed to threaten more with takedowns so that he could let go of his hands better. And I noticed all of those things by the mid-way point of the first round! Why couldn't his corner see that!?
 
He did submit Matt Veach with an RNC but I agree that Edgar would never be able to finish BJ even in a no-time-limit fight. That fight could have gone 100 rounds and Edgar could never submit or KO BJ.

Yes he did. Edgar is a legit BJJ purple belt and a fantastic opportunist. But like you said, hes not finishing BJ, and Penn is on a different planet when it comes to BJJ.

Just so im clear, i think Frankie Edgar is a great fighter and he deserved to win on saturday night. But I attribute that win as much to BJ's stubbornness or lack of urgency as I do Frankies ability.

If BJ wants to continue fighting and regain his P4P reputation he needs to change up his camp. Hes gone as far as he can with his current team and he needs to find his motivation.
 
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I was inside the cage an hour before the doors opened, I know how big it is. I also know that Frankie has to score points in order to win by decision. And in order to score points he has to come in BJ. BJ Penn has fought better fighters than Frankie Edgar, win or lose. He showed he could take down Frankie even AFTER he was tired.



Youre an Edgar fan, thats cool, hes a great fighter. But he hasnt shown that he has the power to finish fights. Thats not a big deal, but lets not pretend like BJ hasnt been hit harder by other people and still won. BJ fights for a living, he isnt afraid to get hit.



Like I said, even AFTER Penn was tired he was able to take Frankie down. Are you suggesting that BJ wouldnt be able to take Frankie down when he was fresh in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd? If you ask Frankie whether or not he was worried about the takedown in the latter rounds I bet his answer would differ from what youre implying. Also....BJ first took Frankie down in the 4th round.



Hes never fought anyone with a ground game like BJ Penn. It only takes one successful attempt at achieving the mount to end a fight. BJ has shown that numerous times against better grapplers than Frankie Edgar. Persistence pays....



So Florian and everybody else werent concerned with escaping as soon as possible from underneath BJ? Thats an interesting assumption. And to look at that from another viewpoint.....Maybe Frank was intent on escaping as fast as possible because HE KNOWS BJ could be a problem for him on the floor. Frankie is squirrely, no question, but again persistence pays. I have no doubt that BJ could advance position on Frankie when hes fresh.

Has he beat better Fighters than Frankie? No

I didn't say he wasn't afraid of BJ's takedowns I said BJ did not attempt one for the first 4 rounds so maybe he wasn't expecting them as much as he would have earlier in the fight.

And yeah he is coming into tag BJ but it's hard to get in for that takedown when someone is punching you in the face.

And again he doesn't really have KO power but that doesn't mean his punches aren't hurting you and sending you back.

I'm not saying Penn couldn't take him donw but you act like it a is a forgone conclusion that if Penn wante dhim donw early he would have down early and would have stayed down.

Also Penn did not gas against Kenny or Diego he got tired against Edgar because Edgar made him get tired, he made him fight his fight and BJ had no choice but to do that. He dictated the pace and took Penn out of his comfort zone.

Again you say he has shown it against better grapplers but he had Edgar down, was advancing position and couldn't hold it, He got him donw twice and couldn't do anything with it.

And yeah Florian was a more content to play guard than Edgar was.

The first time you can call an upset a fluke the second time you realize that the underdog was just the better fighter.

We can make all the Penn excuse threads we want but Edgar went in their and beat him twice. He is the better fighter.
 
I believe i made my point the first time. Nothing youve said here is really different than your last post. Frankie fought a great fight and BJ didnt, that happens, nobody is unbeatable. Congrats to Edgar, But I still believe BJ to be the more talented fighter. As do MANY people, including many within the UFC. And yes, BJ has beaten better fighters(and wrestlers) than Frankie Edgar. Sorry If that bothers you or if you disagree, im not here to change your opinion. We will see what happens with Both over the next 12 months or so
 
I believe i made my point the first time. Nothing youve said here is really different than your last post. Frankie fought a great fight and BJ didnt, that happens, nobody is unbeatable. Congrats to Edgar, But I still believe BJ to be the more talented fighter. As do MANY people, including many within the UFC. And yes, BJ has beaten better fighters(and wrestlers) than Frankie Edgar. Sorry If that bothers you or if you disagree, im not here to change your opinion. We will see what happens with Both over the next 12 months or so

I havent looked over the official scorecards but hasnt Edgar beaten BJ for 10 rounds in a row now?

So if BJ comes out and submits or ko's Edgar in the NEXT rematch is BJ then the better fighter?
 
I believe i made my point the first time. Nothing youve said here is really different than your last post. Frankie fought a great fight and BJ didnt, that happens, nobody is unbeatable. Congrats to Edgar, But I still believe BJ to be the more talented fighter. As do MANY people, including many within the UFC. And yes, BJ has beaten better fighters(and wrestlers) than Frankie Edgar. Sorry If that bothers you or if you disagree, im not here to change your opinion. We will see what happens with Both over the next 12 months or so

What better fighters has he beaten?
 
I don't want to get into a judo wrestling debate but those throws are also used in wrestling.

And that has to do with the chain wrestling and versatility, he doesn't fall into what has become known as the stereotypical wrestler in MMA who shoots doubles and thats it.

He uses a wide variety of techniques for takedowns and he used those techniques when he wrestled also.

I'm aware they're in Judo too. But it's easier to call them "Judo throws" because

1. I have a Judo background

2. People get a clearer picture in their head.
 
Yes he did. Edgar is a legit BJJ purple belt and a fantastic opportunist. But like you said, hes not finishing BJ, and Penn is on a different planet when it comes to BJJ.

Just so im clear, i think Frankie Edgar is a great fighter and he deserved to win on saturday night. But I attribute that win as much to BJ's stubbornness or lack of urgency as I do Frankies ability.

If BJ wants to continue fighting and regain his P4P reputation he needs to change up his camp. Hes gone as far as he can with his current team and he needs to find his motivation.

For some reason I don't remember you posting until recently, but all of your posts are really good. Thanks for putting up some good stuff around here. it's been weak lately.
 
I havent looked over the official scorecards but hasnt Edgar beaten BJ for 10 rounds in a row now?

So if BJ comes out and submits or ko's Edgar in the NEXT rematch is BJ then the better fighter?

Depends on who you ask. A large amount of people had BJ winning the first fight. Frankie has definitely beaten BJ for 6 or 7 rounds in a row.
 
Depends on who you ask. A large amount of people had BJ winning the first fight. Frankie has definitely beaten BJ for 6 or 7 rounds in a row.

Thanks for the heads up on that Drew. Ok so arguably Edgar beat BJ for 10 rounds but at worst the last 6 perhaps 7 rounds. I am not a Penn hater, he is one of my favs...but dang, some people have to let it go. That is why they get in the ring and fight.
 
Enough with the "if Penn worked more on his cardio" thing. Penn has gone into the championship rounds 7 times in his career. His cardio is fine. Sure he slows down towards the end of a long fight but so does almost everyone. He was going strong in round 4 against Florian and round 5 against Sanchez. The real problem with BJ is mental toughness. He is the perfect example of a naturally talented guy that has never had to work hard to be good. He has been sure that his talent was enough and, frankly, he had a lot of accomplishments to back that up.

Not only that he has always had an excuse that prevented him from looking deep inside himself when he lost. He was too young against Pulver, he was too small against Lyoto, he thought he won against GSP, hurt his rib against hughes, GSP was too big and greased, He had a cold against Frankie. Some of them were legit and others weren't but in BJ's mind, BJ didn't lose because he wasn't good enough but because of some other factor outside of his control.

Compare that to, say, GSP's approach. He lost to Matt hughes because he was in awe of him and didn't think he belonged. He worked on that and got better for it. Against Serra, he was in awe of himself and didn't think Serra belonged. He recognized that and fixed it.

Fighting is easy when your winning, it is hard when you are on the losing side and have to come back and BJ has never done things that are hard for him.
 
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