Pavlik

[Sinister]

Of course I agree that he isnt on that list yet, but it is ludicrous to say that he doesn't have the potential to make it on the list (based on his current run).

No it isn't. It's not ludicrous at all. He KO'd Taylor once, but the second fight showed that Taylor was as responsible for that end as Pavlik was, as he fought well in the second and went the distance. An all-time Great doesn't go the distance with a guy regarded as one of the worst MW Champs of recent years.

As of right now Pavlik hasn't showed "greatness", that's just the truth. If it's in him, we have yet to see an indication of it.

 

[SUGARSHANERULEZ]

But those fans never figured in Jermaine Taylor's fragile psyche. Comparing Taylor to Calzaghe is like comparing a rape victim to a spetznatz commando. Taylor is always twitchy, tense, and unsure, while Calzaghe can be summed up in two words - Iron Will.

Look at all of the chances Taylor has had and blown in his career. Zag's never frustrated.

Taylor had the world on a platter and blew. He was making top dollar for fighting scrubs. Pavlik had to knock him out and fight him again just to make money. Taylor is no Calzaghe. He's had his chance and blew it. Every time.

Pavlik's will to win, from what I've seen so far, seems to be right there with Calzaghe's.

Taylor blew his chance every time? What does that even mean? He got through a younger Bhop than the one Joe fought 2x without gettin knocked on his ass. Hopkins output was complete shit against Joe, and he still baited Joe into right hands over and over and over. Completely different style matchup than CAL/Pavlik though so it doesn't mean much. I just see Pavliks nonstop pressure, power, and output carrying him to a win.

 

[SUGARSHANERULEZ]

An all-time Great doesn't go the distance with a guy regarded as one of the worst MW Champs of recent years.

Hopkins is regarded as an all time great MW by many, and he not only went the distance with, but lost to Taylor twice.

 

[Sinister]

Hopkins is regarded as an all time great MW by many, and he not only went the distance with, but lost to Taylor twice.

No he didn't. But leave us not get started on that. If you feel Taylor "won" those Fights, then whatever, I don't, and won't give him credit on that. Besides, Hopkins is regarded as an all-time Great for FAR more than the totality of the 2 debacles with Taylor, but Jermain does absolutely NOT get all-time great status or anything near it for squeaking by Hopkins (if one feels he "won"), then struggling with midgets.

 

[Tam-Tam]

I don't have a problem with Pavlik going the distance with Taylor. I do have a problem with Taylor making Pavlik look bad in the rematch though. Thats not a good thing. Kelly didn't adjust at all and couldn't really do a thing with Taylor, who basically showed next to nothing in that fight.

I just wouldn't mind hearing why Pavlik beats Calzaghe. Specifically, what way do you think he does it, sug?

 

[Sinister]

I don't have a problem with Pavlik going the distance with Taylor.

I just think it says Jermain as much as kicked his own ass a bit to help Kelly out in the first fight. Those fights kind of concluded in reverse, it'd make more sense to me if the first fight looked like the second, and the second looked like the first.

 

[SUGARSHANERULEZ]

No he didn't. But leave us not get started on that. If you feel Taylor "won" those Fights, then whatever, I don't, and won't give him credit on that. Besides, Hopkins is regarded as an all-time Great for FAR more than the totality of the 2 debacles with Taylor, but Jermain does absolutely NOT get all-time great status or anything near it for squeaking by Hopkins (if one feels he "won"), then struggling with midgets.

No I thought they split the two fights, with Hopkins losing the first and winning the second. Either way, both fights were fairly close, which wouldn't be the case if Bhop was in with the worst MW champ ever. Taylor lacks motivation IMO, but when primed and focused, as he was in the 2 Hopkins fights and the Pavlik rematch, I believe he is a very good fighter.

 

[Sinister]

No I thought they split the two fights, with Hopkins losing the first and winning the second. Either way, both fights were fairly close, which wouldn't be the case if Bhop was in with the worst MW champ ever. Taylor lacks motivation IMO, but when primed and focused, as he was in the 2 Hopkins fights and the Pavlik rematch, I believe he is a very good fighter.

Really? I thought he was terrible in both Hopkins fights, and only borderline not terrible in the Pavlik Rematch.

Hopkins didn't want to fight at MW anymore, that much should be obvious. I don't buy the bravado he expressed about being robbed and disenchanted, I believe honestly he tried to "pass the torch" to Taylor. But Taylor didn't fight very well either way (and neither did Hopkins for 5 rounds in the first fight, and most of the second fight).

Like I said, Hopkins status as a Great was cemented both pre and post Taylor, and the debacles with Taylor weren't blemishes enough to dismiss that. I don't buy the myth of "focused" Taylor as much as I would "focused" Zab. Two guys who are more rare than Chinese girls with green eyes, to quote Lo Pan.

 

[SUGARSHANERULEZ]

I just wouldn't mind hearing why Pavlik beats Calzaghe. Specifically, what way do you think he does it, sug?

I see it being similar to the Kessler fight, but Pavlik's higher punch outupt and better stamina being the difference. Kessler is bull strong, but he seemed psyched out by Joe and gassed by the middle/late rounds. I don't think Kelly would be. And though people complain about Pavlik being one dimensional, I think his punch variety is better than Kessler's and he is more accurate with his left hook to the head and body.

Don't get me wrong, I have mad respect for Calzaghe, but I think his age is starting to show ever so slightly, and a guy who grinds you down like Pavlik does is the perfect opponent to highlight that. A prime Joe beats Pavlik IMO, but I don't think he's there anymore.

 

[Tam-Tam]

I just think it says Jermain as much as kicked his own ass a bit to help Kelly out in the first fight. Those fights kind of concluded in reverse, it'd make more sense to me if the first fight looked like the second, and the second looked like the first.

Well, I don't look at the fight that way, because at the end of the day, Taylor had his chance in round two and wasn't able to capitalise. In the end it was Pavlik who forced his fists down Taylor's throat and left him hung up like Marvis Frazier, in front of Taylor's people. That was a good win, IMO.

The rematch was not a good fight for Kelly though. Not in my eyes anyway. Thats the same Pavlik who didn't look hot at all vs. a bunch of average Joe's and lead so many to pick Miranda over him. Kelly is just a simple, strong, gritty fighter...with HUGE size @ 160. There's nothing particularly special about him.

 

[Tam-Tam]

I see it being similar to the Kessler fight, but Pavlik's higher punch outupt and better stamina being the difference. Kessler is bull strong, but he seemed psyched out by Joe and gassed by the middle/late rounds. I don't think Kelly would be. And though people complain about Pavlik being one dimensional, I think his punch variety is better than Kessler's and he is more accurate with his left hook to the head and body.

Don't get me wrong, I have mad respect for Calzaghe, but I think his age is starting to show ever so slightly, and a guy who grinds you down like Pavlik does is the perfect opponent to highlight that. A prime Joe beats Pavlik IMO, but I don't think he's there anymore.

With all due respect, Sug, I can't see where you get it from at all. Pavlik and Kessler are so disimilar its hard to fathom what they have in common besides skin colour. Kessler is a straight up orthodox, European styled fighter. Terrific jab. Straight punches. Great, simple, almost robotic combinations. Techincally correct defense. Seems to struggle to change gears though, which is one thing he shares with Pavlik.

Mikkel is about two or three beats quicker than Kelly and has far better movement and counters. Thats what troubled Calzaghe most, IMO. The counter right hands that were landing early on. If you stand in front of Calzaghe, he will eat you up and spit you out. Hes too quick and busy, plus he comes at you from completly foreign angles.

I think if the fight happens any time soon, Calzaghe would most likely knock Pavlik out.

 

[SUGARSHANERULEZ]

Really? I thought he was terrible in both Hopkins fights, and only borderline not terrible in the Pavlik Rematch.

Hopkins didn't want to fight at MW anymore, that much should be obvious. I don't buy the bravado he expressed about being robbed and disenchanted, I believe honestly he tried to "pass the torch" to Taylor. But Taylor didn't fight very well either way (and neither did Hopkins for 5 rounds in the first fight, and most of the second fight).

Like I said, Hopkins status as a Great was cemented both pre and post Taylor, and the debacles with Taylor weren't blemishes enough to dismiss that. I don't buy the myth of "focused" Taylor as much as I would "focused" Zab. Two guys who are more rare than Chinese girls with green eyes, to quote Lo Pan.

I think you're too hard on Taylor. If he was only borderline not horrible in the Pavlik rematch, he must have been on his deathbed going into their first fight.

Never met the guy, and I only know him from his on camera persona, but Hopkins has never come off as a guy who's willing to give anybody anything. I'll buy the weight affecting him more than him ceding anything to Taylor.

Totally with you on when and how BHOP cemented his legacy, and great fuckin BTILC quote, i love that flick.

 

[Sinister]

I think you're too hard on Taylor. If he was only borderline not horrible in the Pavlik rematch, he must have been on his deathbed going into their first fight.

Never met the guy, and I only know him from his on camera persona, but Hopkins has never come off as a guy who's willing to give anybody anything. I'll buy the weight affecting him more than him ceding anything to Taylor.

Eh, Taylor never struck me as good. I don't think he fought to a draw with Winky, I DO think he fought to a draw at-best with Spinks, and in the second Hopkins fight, and I do think he got bullied way too much by tiny but brave Kassim. If that's hard on him, he brought it on himself. He's among the guys who became average Pros from being excellent Amateurs.

Remember, Hopkins has also been a Promoter for quite a while now. He's also had interests in guys he's either fought, or put in with his own relatives. I look at Taylor as a failed marketing campaign, and if you look at Hopkins' comments ON Taylor, he agrees. Odd perspective to have on a guy who "beat" you.

 

[SUGARSHANERULEZ]

With all due respect, Sug, I can't see where you get it from at all. Pavlik and Kessler are so disimilar its hard to fathom what they have in common besides skin colour. Kessler is a straight up orthodox, European styled fighter. Terrific jab. Straight punches. Great, simple, almost robotic combinations. Techincally correct defense. Seems to struggle to change gears though, which is one thing he shares with Pavlik.

Mikkel is about two or three beats quicker than Kelly and has far better movement and counters. Thats what troubled Calzaghe most, IMO. The counter right hands that were landing early on. If you stand in front of Calzaghe, he will eat you up and spit you out. Hes too quick and busy, plus he comes at you from completly foreign angles.

I think if the fight happens any time soon, Calzaghe would most likely knock Pavlik out.

Haha agree to disagree then. Pavlik's whole offense is based off the jab, as is Kessler's, both follow it up with right hands more often than not. Both are pretty much straight up fighters who throw from conventional angles. Kessler is quicker and a better counter puncher, no doubt. May get some flak for it, but I'd say Kelly is the harder puncher of the two, but my exposure to Kessler is limited. I'll say this, I don't think we'll ever see Pavlik retreating to the ropes with a pained expression on his face from a Calzaghe bodyshot.

Pavlik is plenty busy to stay with Joe, and unlike Joe he isn't slappin half the time.

Calzaghe by KO? If anything I got it the other way around, but i see it as a distance fight. This discussion alone makes me want the fight to come off even more. Soon too, before I start second guessing myself.

 

[Tam-Tam]

I think Kelly's jab is a range finder, used to set up his right hand. The Taylor fight brought that to light, IMO as Pavlik became horribly predictable with it. Taylor simply backed up and held a high guard and Kelly landed that 1, 1, 1, 1-2 on his gloves all fight long. Now, Taylor didn't have an answer to that, but thats because I think Taylor is a fragile, mentally weak fighter. He fought scared, based upon the whooping he got in the first fight.

Kelly is a harder puncher than Pavlik, P4P. I wouldn;t argue. Not sure how hard he's going to hit @ 168 or 175 though. Pavlik is the biggest fighter in the division. He won't be that when/if he moves up.

ANd Kelly might not retreat like that, but I don't think we'd ever see Kessler on the mat fishing around for his senses after a few Taylor right hands, either

 

[SUGARSHANERULEZ]

Eh, Taylor never struck me as good. I don't think he fought to a draw with Winky, I DO think he fought to a draw at-best with Spinks, and in the second Hopkins fight, and I do think he got bullied way too much by tiny but brave Kassim. If that's hard on him, he brought it on himself. He's among the guys who became average Pros from being excellent Amateurs.

Remember, Hopkins has also been a Promoter for quite a while now. He's also had interests in guys he's either fought, or put in with his own relatives. I look at Taylor as a failed marketing campaign, and if you look at Hopkins' comments ON Taylor, he agrees. Odd perspective to have on a guy who "beat" you.

Not even good? Now I know you're too hard on him. Ok, lets say he lost close to Winky, lets even say he lost close to Spinks, that still doesn't make him a bad fighter. Winky is/was elite, and Spinks was a WW and JMW champ with a style that could make anybody look bad, who had beating Karmazin shorty before the Taylor fight.

Hopkins is tough to get a read on, and when I heard him speak of passing the torch to Taylor it puzzled me a little as well, but in the ring in both their fights, I didn't see anything that made me inclined to think Hopkins was going half assed.

 

[SUGARSHANERULEZ]

I think Kelly's jab is a range finder, used to set up his right hand. The Taylor fight brought that to light, IMO as Pavlik became horribly predictable with it. Taylor simply backed up and held a high guard and Kelly landed that 1, 1, 1, 1-2 on his gloves all fight long. Now, Taylor didn't have an answer to that, but thats because I think Taylor is a fragile, mentally weak fighter. He fought scared, based upon the whooping he got in the first fight.

Kelly is a harder puncher than Pavlik, P4P. I wouldn;t argue. Not sure how hard he's going to hit @ 168 or 175 though. Pavlik is the biggest fighter in the division. He won't be that when/if he moves up.

Taylor was gunshy a bit in the rematch, hard to blame the guy, he had just gotten splattered a few months prior and took the fight too quickly. Maybe he pawed too much in the 2nd Taylor fight, but i've seen him snap enough heads back to know there's plenty of force behind it.

Agreed, my biggest concern about Kelly moving up is if his power goes with him.

ANd Kelly might not retreat like that, but I don't think we'd ever see Kessler on the mat fishing around for his senses after a few Taylor right hands, either

Haha I think pretty much anybody goes down from those flush shots from Taylor, they were BOMBS. Kessler would never get in that position though, you're right. He's far too stoic and robotic to ever drop his hands and clown a guy in punching range, or do anything that isn't stiff and textbook. Or too smart, whichever way you want it.

 

[Tam-Tam]

Karmazin beat Spinks and was robbed in what I still to this day swear was a fixed fight.

 

[SUGARSHANERULEZ]

Didn't score it round by round, all i remember from the fight was it being close and hoping Spinks lost.

 

[Dragonstyle915]

Im not saying anyone here really hates him as a person. But geesh, give the guy some credit.

I my self felt the fights with Hopkins could have gone either way. We can sit here and argue about who should have won but I think we can agree that it could have gone either way. Perhaps safe to say that they remain 1-1 in their respective fights.

I guess Hopkins was just over hill though. Maybe he just couldnt be what he used to be. - Oh, that argument is thrown out the window. Hopkins went on to DOMINATE and HUMILIATE Antonio Tarver for 12 rounds. Something he didnt do to Taylor. So I think that there proves perhaps Hopkins wasnt in his prime but that he had some magic left. This was where Hopkins was king and where he ruled for 20 straight title defences.

Winky? Well for one give him credit for giving Winky a shot. That alone should mean something. No one wants ot fight Winky. He's expensive. He's tough to beat. And doesnt give you much to be thrilled about. Ouch. Do I think Winky might have won that fight? Yes I feel that way. But I also feel Hopkins clearly beat Calzaghe. I feel Castillo beat Floyd Mayweather in their first fight. It doesnt diminish them in my eyes though. Why should this diminish Jermain Taylor?Some feel opposite and Jermain offered a rematch from what I understand but Winky thinks his boring turdle style of fighting is worth alot of money to watch. Apperantly...

Kassim and Cory are two small but very slick guys that gave him trouble. The styles gave him trouble. But I feel he won those fights.

At this point Taylor was still young. I think he will be back and strong at 168 lbs .

Kelly Pavlik is a good boxer in my eyes. You can say he doesn do this and that and that he fails to do this other stuff. At the end of the day Kelly gets the job done. I believe Kelly beats Joe Calzaghe but thoughts on that later. Right now I just wanted to kind of defend Jermain Taylor.