Economy One Cause of Everything: The Case for Ending Subsidies for Animal Agriculture

[AnthonyCasso]

Your body produces all of the b vitamins besides 6 and 12 I believe. I'm gonna need to get back to my PC and off my phone to provide adequate information for your questions.

From here I would just say that vegan diets are ideological diets and not necessarily macro nutrient restriction diets like the keto diet. You can do vegan keto. You can do high fat high protein vegan.

I would look into it more myself and give some feed back

 

[AnthonyCasso]

Really… I’ve got nothing against vegetarians or vegans.
If you like to consume in this manner for whatever cause and you’re not experiencing bad and enhancing your wellbeing, then excellent! Continue doing everything you are doing.

I am tired of getting to continuously protect my place regarding pet meals, therefore I chose to review what I believe would be the crucial issues with vegetarian diets.

Vitamin B12 is just a water-soluble vitamin that’s involved in each cell in the body’s purpose.
It’s especially crucial within the purpose of the mind and also the development of body.
Since B12 is crucial for a lifetime and it isnot present in any quantity in crops (except some kinds of algae), it’s undoubtedly the most crucial vitamin that vegans should be worried about.
Actually deficiency is hardly unusual one research demonstrating that the massive 92% of vegans are poor within this crucial nutrient, in vegetarians

Animal protein contains the essential proteins within the correct proportions. It’s essential for bone health and muscle tissue, to mention several. Vegetarians do not get any animal protein, which could have adverse effects on-body structure.

Creatine helps form an energy tank in tissues. Reports show that vegetarians are poor in creatine, that has dangerous effects on brain and muscle function.
Carnosine is protective against numerous degenerative processes in the torso and could protect against aging. It’s discovered just in meat ingredients.

Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) may be the most energetic type of Omega 3 essential fatty acids in the torso and mainly present in meat/fish The plant-form of Omega-3s ALA,, is converted in the torso to DHA.
Two additional nutrients which have been demonized by vegetarian advocates are saturated cholesterol and fat.
Cholesterol it is section of every cell membrane and is just a vital particle in the torso. It’s also applied to make hormones. Reports show that saturated fat consumption fits with an increase of testosterone levels.
Unsurprisingly, vegetarians and vegetarians have reduced testosterone levels than meat eaters.
Main point here: Vegetarians are poor in several essential vitamins, including Creatine and Vitamin B12. Reports show that vegetarians have reduced testosterone levels than their meat eating alternatives

I just dont think I would jump on board just yet, there arent any good studies that would make me a believer, we evolved to eat meat and plants.

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

While there are vegan power lifters bigger and stronger than me , that does not mean that's the way to go. Lots of factors at play , what's their cycles looking like ?

Nimai Delgado claims fully lifetime natty.

I will admit he is the most suspect of all the vegan lifters I'm about to bring up. But I will say this - his physique does not have that highly vascular, hot-dog-skin look of roided lifters. Look at him. He is lean and big but not extremely vascular.

Vegan Gains is clearly not on roids.

Derek Simnett is not on roids. He does calisthenics.

Jon Venus is in amazing shape and again he does not have that extremely vascular hot-dog-skin look.

All of these guys are on whole food plant based diets and put hard time in the gym.

I'm also roid free. Why aren't their more elite level vegans smashing records ? How many vegan heavyweights are there ? What does 6,000 calories worth of vegan food even look like ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian

• 1999 int. German Champion Jun. Bodybuilding-IFBB
• 2007 German Champion -105 kg Strongman-GFSA
• 2009 German Champion -105 kg Strongman-GFSA
• 2009 German Team-Champion Strongman-GFSA
• 2009 German Champion log lift -GFSA
• 2009 World record log lift -105 kg (165 kg)
• 2010 German Champion log lift -GFSA
• 2010 German record in log lift +105 kg (180 kg)
• 2011 4th place at loglifting worldcup (185 kg)
• 2011 German record in loglifting +105 kg (185 kg)
• 2011 German Champion and total winner in log lifting -GFSA
• 2011 German record in beer keg lifting (13 repeats)[6]
• 2011 Germany's Strongest Man 2011[7]
• 2012 European Champion in Powerlifting Class –140 kg division (GPA)[8]
• 2012 World record beer keg lifting (150,2 kg)[9]
• 2012 World record Front Hold 20 kg (1:26,14 Minuten)[10]
• 2013 World record yoke-walk, 550,2 kg over 10 m in Toronto[1]
• 2015 World record yoke-walk, 560 kg in 28 seconds[11]

these are strong man world records. So its not accurate that vegans aren't smashing records. This dude went vegetarian in 2005 and went vegan years ago. Also take into consideration that vegans are a tiny tiny percentage of the population. What are they in the US? 3% of the population? What if vegans were 20% of the population? I would expect they'd be way more represented at the top level of sports. Wouldn't you?

Steak has a lot of protein and the fats I need , what is the vegan equivalent to replace the 20oz steak I just ate. I also slammed a huge cup of goat milk. I just easily consumed around 60 plus grams of protein and it was around 1500 calories . What vegan dish is gonna do that ? I get that it's about calories and protein, obviously I know that.

Steak has a huge amount of trans fats which are horrible for you.

https://nutritionfacts.org/2014/02/27/trans-fat-in-animal-fat/
https://www.health.com/health/gallery/0,,20533295,00.html

Poly unsaturated and mono unsaturated fats are the best fats for your body. They're the fats your body needs and these fats are most concentrated in plant fats.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000747.htm

1500 calories and 60 grams of protein? This is a nutrition label for black beans.

Black beans - 60 grams of protein in 908 calories with none of the heart disease causing TMAO, none of the cancer causing heme iron, none of the heart disease causing saturated fat or cholesterol and LOADED with disease preventing fiber, low sodium, high in minerals. Just one protein source that is superior to animal protein.[/QUOTE]

 

[surrealworlds]

"So, while it may not be practicable to eliminate the industry and its related products overnight," bonus points for teaching me a new word. I thought this was a misspelling of practical.

To the topic at hand, pretty good paper but i dont see a lot of solutions for the problems you are proposing to cause.

For example
"According to research referenced within the GEO-6, 2,700 million hectares of pasture and 100 million hectares of crop land would be freed up and abandoned (almost as much land as the continent of Africa) (Stehfest et al. 2009, 83)."

This is naive at best or willfully ignorant at worst. Do you honestly think all those farmers are just going to abandon their land? Even if you made livestock illegal they would use that land for something else. Maybe something good for the environment, maybe something bad but to pretend all that land is going to go back to wild reforestation is so far away from reality....well yeah.

Another problem:
"Continuing to look at what a low-meat or meat-free world would look like, we know that much of the deforestation of the Amazon rainforest would be halted as the main driver of Amazonian deforestation is livestock production - 70% of previously forested Amazonian forest is now pasture land for livestock (Steinfeld 2006, 256)."

The rainforests are not cut down for land for livestock. They are cut down because poor landowners sell the wood for money. THEN they use the deforested land for livestock to continue to make money. Even if you outlawed livestock they would sell the wood. And if you outlaw cutting down rainforests how would these people make money? Not saying we shouldn't do that but you can't just decide a local population should starve because you want to save the rainforest. You have to give them a different option.

And again:
"The world’s oceanic fisheries are predicted to collapse by mid-century (Worm et al. 2006, 788), so avoiding that with a global low-meat diet (which means low-fish as well) would probably be for the best if we decide oceanic health is a priority of ours"

This would be a huge problem for societies like Japan that rely primarily on fishing to sustain their population. They simply dont have enough land for farming and to tell a sovereign country they HAVE to rely on other countries for food seems a bit disingenuous. They would need options as well.


Overall great paper and you make great points but you don't offer solutions to many problems that your suggestions would cause. Good work!

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

I just dont think I would jump on board just yet, there arent any good studies that would make me a believer, we evolved to eat meat and plants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

"So, while it may not be practicable to eliminate the industry and its related products overnight," bonus points for teaching me a new word. I thought this was a misspelling of practical.

To the topic at hand, pretty good paper but i dont see a lot of solutions for the problems you are proposing to cause.

For example
"According to research referenced within the GEO-6, 2,700 million hectares of pasture and 100 million hectares of crop land would be freed up and abandoned (almost as much land as the continent of Africa) (Stehfest et al. 2009, 83)."

This is naive at best or willfully ignorant at worst. Do you honestly think all those farmers are just going to abandon their land? Even if you made livestock illegal they would use that land for something else. Maybe something good for the environment, maybe something bad but to pretend all that land is going to go back to wild reforestation is so far away from reality....well yeah.

We could do things like offering farmers direct payments for not farming their lands out and using them as carbon sinks. There are similar programs today. The point is that if these farmers do not receive subsidies for using these lands for animal agriculture, they could use those lands for something else - virtually anything else would be less destructive. As another poster pointed, a great deal of the lands used for animal agriculture are not really great for anything else. They're dry arid lands that can't grow crops. So if they're not using these lands to raise animals, just what can they do with them? Not much imo.

Another problem:
"Continuing to look at what a low-meat or meat-free world would look like, we know that much of the deforestation of the Amazon rainforest would be halted as the main driver of Amazonian deforestation is livestock production - 70% of previously forested Amazonian forest is now pasture land for livestock (Steinfeld 2006, 256)."

The rainforests are not cut down for land for livestock. They are cut down because poor landowners sell the wood for money. THEN they use the deforested land for livestock to continue to make money. Even if you outlawed livestock they would sell the wood. And if you outlaw cutting down rainforests how would these people make money? Not saying we shouldn't do that but you can't just decide a local population should starve because you want to save the rainforest. You have to give them a different option.

While I'm not sure that its accurate that rainforest isn't cut down specifically to be used for beef, I get your point. Still, beef cattle are considered the main driver of rain forest deforestation. There are a number of NGO's in the world that are working to provide efficient and sustainable fuel sources and devices for poor populations around the world.

And again:
"The world’s oceanic fisheries are predicted to collapse by mid-century (Worm et al. 2006, 788), so avoiding that with a global low-meat diet (which means low-fish as well) would probably be for the best if we decide oceanic health is a priority of ours"

This would be a huge problem for societies like Japan that rely primarily on fishing to sustain their population. They simply dont have enough land for farming and to tell a sovereign country they HAVE to rely on other countries for food seems a bit disingenuous. They would need options as well.

Japan has plenty of agricultural land that they could use for crops. As I pointed out earlier itt only 1% of the agricultural land in the US is used for growing the crops/plants that most americans eat. Using land for fruits / veg / grains is incredibly efficient especially with modern agricultural technology. Traditionally the japanese ate a plant based diet with small amounts of sea food supplemented in here and there. It isn't accurate that they got large percentages of their calories from seafood and that they would starve with out it. And what's the alternative? The ocean's fish are predicted to be GONE by 2050. If countries like Japan don't make the transition they would starve to death once the oceans are out of fish.

Overall great paper and you make great points but you don't offer solutions to many problems that your suggestions would cause. Good work!

I appreciate the thoughtful comments and the praise. I appreciate that you actually took the time to read it and offer responses based on the information presented within. The point of the paper was to focus on animal ag. subsidies and the elimination of those subsidies IS a solution. If we eliminated those subsidies we would naturally curb consumer behavior away from purchasing those products.

 

[Serenity Now]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian

• 1999 int. German Champion Jun. Bodybuilding-IFBB
• 2007 German Champion -105 kg Strongman-GFSA
• 2009 German Champion -105 kg Strongman-GFSA
• 2009 German Team-Champion Strongman-GFSA
• 2009 German Champion log lift -GFSA
• 2009 World record log lift -105 kg (165 kg)
• 2010 German Champion log lift -GFSA
• 2010 German record in log lift +105 kg (180 kg)
• 2011 4th place at loglifting worldcup (185 kg)
• 2011 German record in loglifting +105 kg (185 kg)
• 2011 German Champion and total winner in log lifting -GFSA
• 2011 German record in beer keg lifting (13 repeats)[6]
• 2011 Germany's Strongest Man 2011[7]
• 2012 European Champion in Powerlifting Class –140 kg division (GPA)[8]
• 2012 World record beer keg lifting (150,2 kg)[9]
• 2012 World record Front Hold 20 kg (1:26,14 Minuten)[10]
• 2013 World record yoke-walk, 550,2 kg over 10 m in Toronto[1]
• 2015 World record yoke-walk, 560 kg in 28 seconds[11]

these are strong man world records. So its not accurate that vegans aren't smashing records. This dude went vegetarian in 2005 and went vegan years ago. Also take into consideration that vegans are a tiny tiny percentage of the population. What are they in the US? 3% of the population? What if vegans were 20% of the population? I would expect they'd be way more represented at the top level of sports. Wouldn't you?

Are those world records actually legit though?

Don't get me wrong Patrik is a strong guy but that World Record Front hold 20kg........Did he get that record only because Guiness world record was willing to give him a chance + Patrik actually trained for it?

The reason I mention this.

Is because if any of the top strongman...Who are fucking huge like 350+ lbs 6'5+, much bigger than Patrik.....Patrik is 5'7 and doesn't weight anyway near these huge ass guys....So if any of these strongmen decided to actually break his records, I have no doubt that the Mountain or Brian shaw could easily break his front hold of 20kg if they actually tried/trained for it.


Patrik does show you can be strong with a vegan diet but idk about his world records.

 

[surrealworlds]

I feel like this is derailing the thread but i wanted to point out that recently Joe Rogan had Robert Oberst on his podcast and they talked about this subject and this exact strongman. He said something along the lines of a lot of these "World" records are from national or local organizations and they wouldn't even rank in the actual strongman contest. Sort of how the UFC calls its champions World champions but they are actually UFC champions.
Im not trying to debate this point just wanted to add some info to it.
TBF there was a response to that podcast as well.
https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/vegan-strongman-blasts-joe-rogan

Nimai Delgado claims fully lifetime natty.

I will admit he is the most suspect of all the vegan lifters I'm about to bring up. But I will say this - his physique does not have that highly vascular, hot-dog-skin look of roided lifters. Look at him. He is lean and big but not extremely vascular.

Vegan Gains is clearly not on roids.

Derek Simnett is not on roids. He does calisthenics.

Jon Venus is in amazing shape and again he does not have that extremely vascular hot-dog-skin look.

All of these guys are on whole food plant based diets and put hard time in the gym.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian

• 1999 int. German Champion Jun. Bodybuilding-IFBB
• 2007 German Champion -105 kg Strongman-GFSA
• 2009 German Champion -105 kg Strongman-GFSA
• 2009 German Team-Champion Strongman-GFSA
• 2009 German Champion log lift -GFSA
• 2009 World record log lift -105 kg (165 kg)
• 2010 German Champion log lift -GFSA
• 2010 German record in log lift +105 kg (180 kg)
• 2011 4th place at loglifting worldcup (185 kg)
• 2011 German record in loglifting +105 kg (185 kg)
• 2011 German Champion and total winner in log lifting -GFSA
• 2011 German record in beer keg lifting (13 repeats)[6]
• 2011 Germany's Strongest Man 2011[7]
• 2012 European Champion in Powerlifting Class –140 kg division (GPA)[8]
• 2012 World record beer keg lifting (150,2 kg)[9]
• 2012 World record Front Hold 20 kg (1:26,14 Minuten)[10]
• 2013 World record yoke-walk, 550,2 kg over 10 m in Toronto[1]
• 2015 World record yoke-walk, 560 kg in 28 seconds[11]

these are strong man world records. So its not accurate that vegans aren't smashing records. This dude went vegetarian in 2005 and went vegan years ago. Also take into consideration that vegans are a tiny tiny percentage of the population. What are they in the US? 3% of the population? What if vegans were 20% of the population? I would expect they'd be way more represented at the top level of sports. Wouldn't you?


Steak has a huge amount of trans fats which are horrible for you.

https://nutritionfacts.org/2014/02/27/trans-fat-in-animal-fat/
https://www.health.com/health/gallery/0,,20533295,00.html

Poly unsaturated and mono unsaturated fats are the best fats for your body. They're the fats your body needs and these fats are most concentrated in plant fats.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000747.htm

1500 calories and 60 grams of protein? This is a nutrition label for black beans.

Black beans - 60 grams of protein in 908 calories with none of the heart disease causing TMAO, none of the cancer causing heme iron, none of the heart disease causing saturated fat or cholesterol and LOADED with disease preventing fiber, low sodium, high in minerals. Just one protein source that is superior to animal protein.

[/QUOTE]

 

[surrealworlds]

We could do things like offering farmers direct payments for not farming their lands out and using them as carbon sinks. There are similar programs today. The point is that if these farmers do not receive subsidies for using these lands for animal agriculture, they could use those lands for something else - virtually anything else would be less destructive. As another poster pointed, a great deal of the lands used for animal agriculture are not really great for anything else. They're dry arid lands that can't grow crops. So if they're not using these lands to raise animals, just what can they do with them? Not much imo.

While I'm not sure that its accurate that rainforest isn't cut down specifically to be used for beef, I get your point. Still, beef cattle are considered the main driver of rain forest deforestation. There are a number of NGO's in the world that are working to provide efficient and sustainable fuel sources and devices for poor populations around the world.

Japan has plenty of agricultural land that they could use for crops. As I pointed out earlier itt only 1% of the agricultural land in the US is used for growing the crops/plants that most americans eat. Using land for fruits / veg / grains is incredibly efficient especially with modern agricultural technology. Traditionally the japanese ate a plant based diet with small amounts of sea food supplemented in here and there. It isn't accurate that they got large percentages of their calories from seafood and that they would starve with out it. And what's the alternative? The ocean's fish are predicted to be GONE by 2050. If countries like Japan don't make the transition they would starve to death once the oceans are out of fish.


I appreciate the thoughtful comments and the praise. I appreciate that you actually took the time to read it and offer responses based on the information presented within. The point of the paper was to focus on animal ag. subsidies and the elimination of those subsidies IS a solution. If we eliminated those subsidies we would naturally curb consumer behavior away from purchasing those products.

So to eliminate subsidies for animal agriculture we should instead give subsidies to not use the land at all?

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

I feel like this is derailing the thread but i wanted to point out that recently Joe Rogan had Robert Oberst on his podcast and they talked about this subject and this exact strongman. He said something along the lines of a lot of these "World" records are from national or local organizations and they wouldn't even rank in the actual strongman contest. Sort of how the UFC calls its champions World champions but they are actually UFC champions.
Im not trying to debate this point just wanted to add some info to it.
TBF there was a response to that podcast as well.
https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/vegan-strongman-blasts-joe-rogan

[/QUOTE]
Yup.

What's funny is that Oberst has ZERO titles under him. He's not in a position to talk shit on anyone. Their whole point was "well Patrick hasn't won world's strongest man". Hey Robert, neither have you. So wtf? Patrick's records were verified and recorded in front of large crowds of people.

Aside from that and getting to that other posters point - yeah Patrick is a shorter dude. But again how many vegans are there in the world? Are they 3% of the western population? And how many dudes with Brian Shaw's genetics are eating vegan diets?

The only reason that strongmen and body builders eat the way they do is because of tradition and bro science. How many 6'9 400 pound strongmen have tried a vegan diet long term? Right about zero. Because they're absorbed in the culture of the sport they're in.

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

So to eliminate subsidies for animal agriculture we should instead give subsidies to not use the land at all?

We could start with eliminating the subsidies for the industry and see what happens with the land from there. Much of it is unusable for anything. It goes from contributing towards the problem to not contributing or even becoming a carbon sink that helps mitigate the problem.

 

[surrealworlds]

We could start with eliminating the subsidies for the industry and see what happens with the land from there. Much of it is unusable for anything. It goes from contributing towards the problem to not contributing or even becoming a carbon sink that helps mitigate the problem.

Thats fair. I would suggest maybe instead of subsidies offer a buyback program with the intention of increasing conservation land/national parks which would have the same effect without longterm subsidies to commit to.
Even if the land is unfarmable we can find uses for it but if the best use is a carbon-sink then we just have to find a way to pay for it. Subsidies is the most obvious answer but im willing to bet if enough think about it we can figure out better options.

The whole problem with all of this is getting everyone on the same page that something HAS to change if we are going to survive as a species with anything resembling the lifestyles we have now.

Technology is a wild card and may save us but i believe we are at the tipping point and cant rely on technological hypotheticals.

 

[surrealworlds]

Yup.

What's funny is that Oberst has ZERO titles under him. He's not in a position to talk shit on anyone. Their whole point was "well Patrick hasn't won world's strongest man". Hey Robert, neither have you. So wtf? Patrick's records were verified and recorded in front of large crowds of people.

Aside from that and getting to that other posters point - yeah Patrick is a shorter dude. But again how many vegans are there in the world? Are they 3% of the western population? And how many dudes with Brian Shaw's genetics are eating vegan diets?

The only reason that strongmen and body builders eat the way they do is because of tradition and bro science. How many 6'9 400 pound strongmen have tried a vegan diet long term? Right about zero. Because they're absorbed in the culture of the sport they're in.

This should be its own thread. Personally i dont have any problem with veganism,etc but i am highly doubtful most of those bodybuilders are natty. As someone who has worked out extensively i dont see being able to put on or keep that much muscle on a vegan diet. Im not going to say that as fact but its suspect.
It seems you would have to consume a lot of calories from veggies or use steroids.

The main reason i say this is because even eating meat, big dudes almost always are on steroids. Just look at the natural bodybuilders vs open classes. A world of difference. The human body has natural limits and most bodybuilders are so far beyond that its crazy.

 

[freakroor]

is this thread about farm subsidies or veganism?

 

[wufabufa]

This is actually really poorly understood in the general public. LDL cholesterol is really bad for you, and HDL is less bad for you. But elevated HDL also comes with increased risk for iscemic heart disease but people always misrepresented the science as "this one is bad and this one is good".

Eggs are way way way less bad for environment than meat is, don't get me wrong. But in comparison to grains, fruits and veggies they still require more resources.

Morally, I'm actually not opposed to people collecting eggs from chickens at all. If you're getting eggs from true free range chickens I have no ethical qualms with that at all. But "cage free" eggs bought from stores are still sourced from chickens raised in horrific conditions.

 

[Wet Blanket]

Hopefully one day we won't be killing and torturing animals for profit.

Until then we have groups like ALF.

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

This should be its own thread. Personally i dont have any problem with veganism,etc but i am highly doubtful most of those bodybuilders are natty. As someone who has worked out extensively i dont see being able to put on or keep that much muscle on a vegan diet. Im not going to say that as fact but its suspect.
It seems you would have to consume a lot of calories from veggies or use steroids.

The main reason i say this is because even eating meat, big dudes almost always are on steroids. Just look at the natural bodybuilders vs open classes. A world of difference. The human body has natural limits and most bodybuilders are so far beyond that its crazy.

The Natty limit is a fat free mass index of 25. Not one of the guys I've posted have a fat free mass index above that. Not that that's definitive proof of anything, but there it is. None of those four are above the Natty limit.

Vegan body builders aren't consuming a huge amount of calories from veggies lol. Veggies are very low in calories. They eat calorically dense plant foods like starchy root vegetables, grains and legumes.

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

It's called the lipid hypothesis and it was just confirmed in a 2017 meta analysis of over two million people. There is a direct linear association between vascular LDL and heart disease. If you want to know more I reference that study in the paper in the op and you can find the source in the paper and read the whole study

 

[wufabufa]

It's called the lipid hypothesis and it was just confirmed in a 2017 meta analysis of over two million people. There is a direct linear association between vascular LDL and heart disease. If you want to know more I reference that study in the paper in the op and you can find the source in the paper and read the whole study

What about particle size? From what I understand that makes a huge difference. Also new evidence shows that LDL cholesterol swings wildly through the day.

 

[ithinktheymad]

Since B12 is crucial for a lifetime and it isnot present in any quantity in crops (except some kinds of algae), it’s undoubtedly the most crucial vitamin that vegans should be worried about.
Actually deficiency is hardly unusual one research demonstrating that the massive 92% of vegans are poor within this crucial nutrient, in vegetarians

We've discussed the fact that livestock are not only supplemented with B12 among other vitamins and nutrients, but, they can and often are affected by nutritional deficiency in quite a few threads on here.