Economy One Cause of Everything: The Case for Ending Subsidies for Animal Agriculture

[Ultra O’Dia]

20 calories in for every calorie you get out... Im not sure why this fact isn't getting through to them lol. If you're concerned about people being hungry you'd be on our side lmao.

people just want what is easiest for them. every argument is just rationalization in order to achieve what is easiest for them. No discipline, no sense of reality, all masked by mockery and poorly thought out arguments.

its funny, because i feel the lack of reality is something i typically see from the lefties on here, which only shows me that their isnt really a difference. people are weak, greedy and arrogant, and just happen to be split into different tribe mindsets depending on how they were raised, usually.

 

[DIDM]

You haven't read this thread, at all.

You say 20% of the US is obese

They don’t eat real food, their diet consists of shit you get at a drive through

You are insane. Look at countries like Spain, everyone eats meat, everywhere. Everyone is also healthy.

Yes, large scale factory farms are terrible, but they are definitely in decline. Folks are demanding the best food for their buck.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

The majority of Vegans I know look like shit, reading that paper reminds me of the movie snow peircer. I'll get to eat the vegan and insect brick shit bar while I watch my health and weight go to hell.

its something of a false equivalence. it is more accepted to be vegan in subcultures that are not interested in athletics. and its always easy to microscope the other team.

there are boatloads of skinnyfat, purplehaired meateaters.

the vegans who lift and play sports look like athletes. that is the common denominator - exercise.

 

[BarryDillon]

Everyone has their own biases so of course there's research I tend to look at more than other kinds of research. I have read a lot of papers and listened to alot of lectures talking about the causal mechanisms of diabetes. I haven't seen any papers or really heard much about keto diets being used to treat insulin sensitivity. I am not saying you're lying. I'm admitting my own biases and saying it's information I simply haven't seen. And id have to first see the information before I could begin addressing the dilemma you pointed to earlier - how could meat be causing and treating type 2 diabetes.

I intend to do more reading now that you have made me aware of the literature concerning this potential meat/diabetes relationship. That was news to me and has sort of blown my mind.

Maybe people that really eat a lot of meat, really eat a lot of everything? And they get muh type 2 diabetes?

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

people just want what is easiest for them. every argument is just rationalization in order to achieve what is easiest for them. No discipline, no sense of reality, all masked by mockery and poorly thought out arguments.

its funny, because i feel the lack of reality is something i typically see from the lefties on here, which only shows me that their isnt really a difference. people are weak, greedy and arrogant, and just happen to be split into different tribe mindsets depending on how they were raised, usually.

Completely agree with this analysis. To me, the one thing that separates us from animals is our capacity for rationality. If We're not exercising our capacity for rationality, then we're basically no better than animals. I feel as if all people should do the best to maximize their rationality, logic, and ability to reason. Yet, you have so many people that are so anti-science so anti logic so anti reason that at times I just feel embarrassed to be a human. I'm a total Bernie bro, but this is one of the big reasons that I really liked Andrew yang one of his campaign slogans is something like make America think harder, and I couldn't agree more with that sentiment

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

Maybe people that really eat a lot of meat, really eat a lot of everything. And they get muh type 2 diabetes?

That's not a bad takeaway by looking at it from face value. But I posted a study earlier in this thread that looked at BMI and type 2 diabetes by dietary group that adjusted for lifestyle choices and the study found that the difference in lifestyle choices accounted for only 5% of the difference. That kind of defeats that idea, no?

 

[AnthonyCasso]

its something of a false equivalence. it is more accepted to be vegan in subcultures that are not interested in athletics. and its always easy to microscope the other team.

there are boatloads of skinnyfat, purplehaired meateaters.

the vegans who lift and play sports look like athletes. that is the common denominator - exercise.

I weight around 245 and I couldn't maintain my size or level of strength on a vegan diet. The majority of people cant even afford to eat vegan. There has never been a completely vegan society. You aren't gonna easily replace the nutrients that eating eggs, fish and steak provides. If I went vegan, I would drop 60 pounds and look like shit.

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

You say 20% of the US is obese

They don’t eat real food, their diet consists of shit you get at a drive through

You are insane. Look at countries like Spain, everyone eats meat, everywhere. Everyone is also healthy.

Yes, large scale factory farms are terrible, but they are definitely in decline. Folks are demanding the best food for their buck.

except for the fact that I posted two studies in this thread that looked at BMI by dietary group and they adjusted for lifestyle factors and lifestyle choices. and every study that has ever been done looking at body fat percentage and BMI by dietary group, The vegans always have the lowest BMI. Explain that please. Lack of evidence for your point is not evidence for your point

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

I weight around 245 and I couldn't maintain my size or level of strength on a vegan diet. The majority of people cant even afford to eat vegan. There has never been a completely vegan society. You aren't gonna easily replace the nutrients that eating eggs, fish and steak provides. If I went vegan, I would drop 60 pounds and look like shit.

Well that sure is interesting then that there are strong men vegan that are way bigger than you and have way bigger lifts than you on a vegan diet. Maintaining size and strength is about the amount of calories and protein you consume - not whether or not you're eating animals. You could be eating a high protein vegan diet on 6,000 calories a day or you could eat pure steaks on 1500 calories a day. Who's going to perform better?

You're confusing caloric intake and macro nutrient composition for dietary ideological purity.

 

[BarryDillon]

That's not a bad takeaway by looking at it from face value. But I posted a study earlier in this thread that looked at BMI and type 2 diabetes by dietary group that adjusted for lifestyle choices and the study found that the difference in lifestyle choices accounted for only 5% of the difference. That kind of defeats that idea, no?

It certainly could injure it.

I need to do more reading, frankly.

 

[AnthonyCasso]

except for the fact that I posted two studies in this thread that looked at BMI by dietary group and they adjusted for lifestyle factors and lifestyle choices. and every study that has ever been done looking at body fat percentage and BMI by dietary group, The vegans always have the lowest BMI. Explain that please. Lack of evidence for your point is not evidence for your point

BMI is overrated , I'm obese according to that, I would look like I was on drugs if I weighed 190 or whatever it says. I'm a thin looking 245 on top of that , around 6'3.

 

[DIDM]

except for the fact that I posted two studies in this thread that looked at BMI by dietary group and they adjusted for lifestyle factors and lifestyle choices. and every study that has ever been done looking at body fat percentage and BMI by dietary group, The vegans always have the lowest BMI. Explain that please. Lack of evidence for your point is not evidence for your point

Are you vegan? I’m guessing yes

Well I’m not, so I can’t from my personal life, but my brother was vegetarian, went vegan, went raw vegan. Then one day realized he didn’t feel good. Ate raw veggies and supplements and started to feel sick. Lethargic, just meh.

He decided to go eat a bacon cheeseburger at a restaurant, not fast food. He hasn’t looked back since. And he’s a Ralph Gracie BB, teaches at the academy and is a SFPD Officer and trains them in grappling.

Humans need animal protein

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

It certainly could injure it.

I need to do more reading, frankly.

I spend entirely too much time listening to lectures and conferences on nutrition and reading nutrition papers. It has nothing to do with my major but it's a pet subject of mine.

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

BMI is overrated , I'm obese according to that, I would look like I was on drugs if I weighed 190 or whatever it says. I'm a thin looking 245 on top of that , around 6'3.

I get it. Body fat % > BMI. But are you assuming that the omnivores in this study are actually jacked weightlifting meat eaters and that's why their BMI is high? That's not a fair assumption

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

Are you vegan? I’m guessing yes

Well I’m not, so I can’t from my personal life, but my brother was vegetarian, went vegan, went raw vegan. Then one day realized he didn’t feel good. Ate raw veggies and supplements and started to feel sick. Lethargic, just meh.

He decided to go eat a bacon cheeseburger at a restaurant, not fast food. He hasn’t looked back since. And he’s a Ralph Gracie BB, teaches at the academy and is a SFPD Officer and trains them in grappling.

Humans need animal protein

Yeah dude, no shit. Raw vegans are nut jobs. There is NO scientific evidence that suggests raw diets are healthy for you. Not one single paper. It's a weird sub-faction of vegans that do that shit and they're always the ones that suffer health consequences - rawvanna, fully raw Christina, tim shieff, these are vegans that have been in the headlines lately for quitting the vegan diet. What do they all have in common? They all are raw diet vegans

Cooking our food is what made human beings happen. Cooking plants created more Bio available glucose for our brains to use and it spurred the rapid growth of the human brain. There is absolutely no fucking reason to eat a raw vegan diet.

If you eat raw that means you're consuming ZERO legumes and legumes are a center piece of a healthy vegan diet. You can't eat or digest raw hard beans. Legumes are the healthiest of all food groups. I wouldn't recommend anyone eliminate them.

As for your claim that we "need animal protein", please tell me the specific nutrients that we need in animal products that aren't in plants.

 

[AnthonyCasso]

Well that sure is interesting then that there are strong men vegan that are way bigger than you and have way bigger lifts than you on a vegan diet. Maintaining size and strength is about the amount of calories and protein you consume - not whether or not you're eating animals. You could be eating a high protein vegan diet on 6,000 calories a day or you could eat pure steaks on 1500 calories a day. Who's going to perform better?

You're confusing caloric intake and macro nutrient composition for dietary ideological purity.

While there are vegan power lifters bigger and stronger than me , that does not mean that's the way to go. Lots of factors at play , what's their cycles looking like ? I'm also roid free. Why aren't their more elite level vegans smashing records ? How many vegan heavyweights are there ? What does 6,000 calories worth of vegan food even look like ? Steak has a lot of protein and the fats I need , what is the vegan equivalent to replace the 20oz steak I just ate. I also slammed a huge cup of goat milk. I just easily consumed around 60 plus grams of protein and it was around 1500 calories . What vegan dish is gonna do that ? I get that it's about calories and protein, obviously I know that.

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

While there are vegan power lifters bigger and stronger than me , that does not mean that's the way to go. Lots of factors at play , what's their cycles looking like ? I'm also roid free. Why aren't their more elite level vegans smashing records ? How many vegan heavyweights are there ? What does 6,000 calories worth of vegan food even look like ? Steak has a lot of protein and the fats I need , what is the vegan equivalent to replace the 20oz steak I just ate. I also slammed a huge cup of goat milk. I just easily consumed around 60 plus grams of protein and it was around 1500 calories . What vegan dish is gonna do that ? I get that it's about calories and protein, obviously I know that.

I really really appreciate that you're asking these questions in good faith. I'm about to leave the bar I've been at for the last hour or so and ill get to these questions in depth here in a minute.

What you fail to consider in your macro nutrient considerations are the bad things that come along with your diet. Trans fats are incredibly high in red meat and we all know trans fats are really really bad for you. Cholesterol is horrific for your cardiovascular system. Heme iron causes cancer. TMAO causes heart disease. The high levels of IGF-1 in meat and dairy accelerate tumor and cancer growth.

I would also add that the protein requirements for building muscle have been dramatically overstated so you may be operating on this idea you need 150/200+ grams of protein per day to build muscle when that's just not true.

Again once I get home I'm going to dive more in depth and answer these questions

 

[AnthonyCasso]

I get it. Body fat % > BMI. But are you assuming that the omnivores in this study are actually jacked weightlifting meat eaters and that's why their BMI is high? That's not a fair assumption

Your gonna have a low BMI on a vegan diet , there is no fucking fat. People who just eat whatever will have more fat intake. I also eat elk and meat with minimal fat. There is no plant to rival the protein and healthy fats that fish provide. Also what about complex B vitamins ? Plants dont have a ton of that, what about the hair loss that many vegans end up with ? I'm not trying to be a dick here , but we are omnivores for a reason and your trying to convince me to do something that no civilization has done by being completely plant based. They dont have any long terms studies for a reasons because they dont exist.

 

[Reactionary Corporatist]

Your gonna have a low BMI on a vegan diet , there is no fucking fat. People who just eat whatever will have more fat intake. I also eat elk and meat with minimal fat. There is no plant to rival the protein and healthy fats that fish provide. Also what about complex B vitamins ? Plants dont have a ton of that, what about the hair loss that many vegans end up with ? I'm not trying to be a dick here , but we are omnivores for a reason and your trying to convince me to do something that no civilization has done by being completely plant based. They dont have any long terms studies for a reasons because they dont exist.

Your body produces all of the b vitamins besides 6 and 12 I believe. I'm gonna need to get back to my PC and off my phone to provide adequate information for your questions.

From here I would just say that vegan diets are ideological diets and not necessarily macro nutrient restriction diets like the keto diet. You can do vegan keto. You can do high fat high protein vegan.

 

[AnthonyCasso]

I really really appreciate that you're asking these questions in good faith. I'm about to leave the bar I've been at for the last hour or so and ill get to these questions in depth here in a minute.

What you fail to consider in your macro nutrient considerations are the bad things that come along with your diet. Trans fats are incredibly high in red meat and we all know trans fats are really really bad for you. Cholesterol is horrific for your cardiovascular system. Heme iron causes cancer. TMAO causes heart disease. The high levels of IGF-1 in meat and dairy accelerate tumor and cancer growth.

I would also add that the protein requirements for building muscle have been dramatically overstated so you may be operating on this idea you need 150/200+ grams of protein per day to build muscle when that's just not true.

Again once I get home I'm going to dive more in depth and answer these questions

Here Again I'm enjoying the conversation, I've just seen real life examples that run contrary to that.

My Dr was an actual vegan , he would always bang on me for eating red meat. My cholesterol perfect , my triglycerides are perfect , blood pressure and all that were always text book. I'm very active thou . Anyway he ended up dying young, his body was riddled with cancer. This dude was a lifelong vegetarian since high school.
He was also my dads doctor , my dad smoked , ate like shit , never exercised, made less money , had a significantly lower quality of life and outlived him. Maybe I'm wrong but my instincts naturally gravitate toward high calorie nutrient dense foods.

http://www.tributes.com/obituary/show/Leonard-William-Cain-94494799