International Oligarchy is not just a Russian phenomenon. It exists right here in the USA.

[Jack V Savage]

The contention that US Democrats have been "too left" is comically absurd and flies in the face of essentially global interpretation of the Overton Window. Ever since the parted started accepting corporate influence over Union influence, things have been skewed and what ensued was a habitual "run right" reaction any time Democrats have had to contend with any significant issue. Or at the very most lukewarm vehement verbal advocacy, while delivering nothing to effect citizens.

We have data that this has cost voters, lessened engagement, and allowed the opposition to make strongholds out of what used to be States and Counties that voted back and forth more often. And how did they do it? With populism. I dont know how many times liberals need to get kicked in the teeth in defeat by populist campaigns before they just accept that they cannot dictate to the people what they want. Hell this is so potent there are a few "progressive" Democrats who got elected on populist platforms only to to turncoat and become conservative once in office. And what message does that send? Some have fully just turned Republican.

What's the last actual left thing that happened as a Country? What was that marriage equality? Yeah Obama had to contend with reversal of his own previously conservative position on that. And these things even have to be made with conservative type of arguments. Abortion access was passed because conservatives USED to believe the State had no right to intervene in your medical affairs. Marriage equality won because some conservatives in power still believed that equal protection under the law was a viable concept.

And over time the more Democrats have formed that habit of running right (as they have done more recently with racial issues, being as Harris outright refused to address them, trans issues, Harris also stayed far away from those, being "tough on Crime" as Clinton helped with deleterious policies to minorities who then get blamed for those policies existing, and now the border wheren they dont advocate for migrants insomuch as all they do is say Republicans are hyoicrites... which no one cares about), the closer we've come to fascism. This is not a coincidence, and it has haooenednhistorically numerous times.

@brothir , see?

And it's such a deep-rooted craziness that it's hard to even know where to start. I can point out that the "nothing" in that first paragraph (echoed later with "What's the last actual left thing that happened as a Country") can be refuted with a book-length response. But maybe it's not meant literally. But then we get to an argument about what is significant that is largely subjective (though I think it would just be stubbornness causing him to deny the significance of anything). On the popularity thing, voters perceived Clinton and Harris being further from the center and less in agreement with them, but that doesn't matter, apparently. I could ask for substantiation of the claim about progressives flipping in office. But that might again come down to subjective judgments (a lot of leftist loons would say AOC is an example of that!).

 

[Jack V Savage]

I said you side-stepped because you side-stepped.

I didn't though. Why not just try to address what I say as if I'm a human? I have always treated you respectfully, and you never give it back.

 

[brothir]

@brothir , see?

Well, in a sense I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking at. My immediate contentions in order would be:
1) Too left compared to what, and absurd by what measure?
2) The alleged global Overton window is likely actually a subjective one.
3) When did the "parted" start accepting corporate influence, and why do they (both party and specific candidates) still win elections?

Basically, I see a stream of naked assertions.

 

[filthybliss]

I’m still waiting for the reactionary “centrists” and the people willing to castrate themselves for Trump to have any sort of disagreement on anything like the “culty woke mobsters” on here do.

 

[brothir]

I’m still waiting for the reactionary “centrists” and the people willing to castrate themselves for Trump to have any sort of disagreement on anything like the “culty woke mobsters” on here do.

Having a disagreement requires having both at least one genuine opinion and at least one spine. You can have multiples of either, I guess, but that's the minimum.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Well, in a sense I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking at. My immediate contentions in order would be:
1) Too left compared to what, and absurd by what measure?
2) The alleged global Overton window is likely actually a subjective one.
3) When did the "parted" start accepting corporate influence, and why do they (both party and specific candidates) still win elections?

Basically, I see a stream of naked assertions.

Really, even more than trying to resolve the object-level issue, I would love it if self-proclaimed leftists would progress to the point of acknowledging that there actually is a controversy here. Like, maybe liberals are wrong to think that extremists are less likely to win elections or that effectively crafting policy that survives a cost-benefit analysis while also keeping various involved factions on board is difficult, but it is what we really think and not just something we say to hide our evilness.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I’m still waiting for the reactionary “centrists” and the people willing to castrate themselves for Trump to have any sort of disagreement on anything like the “culty woke mobsters” on here do.

Really, the right is united by partisanship so ideological, fact-based, or tactical differences don't inspire any passion. That's actually healthier in some ways than the left coalition, where the radicals are content to bolt and let the right win rather than budge on any issues, and "moderates" are forced to compromise with them as a result, even at the expense of getting enough power to execute an agenda (this, IMO, is the real reason policy might be to the right of what the median voter would want). The flip side of it, though, is that rightists are willing to tolerate any level of personal corruption from their side, and leftists are not (see Blagojevich, Adams, Menendez, etc.), and the left is much healthier in that respect.

The ideal would be two parties that have a few clear policy priorities, a lot of tolerance for disagreement about other issues (about which each side can reach out to people on the other for votes), and no tolerance for personal corruption or incompetence.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Really, the right is united by partisanship so ideological, fact-based, or tactical differences don't inspire any passion. That's actually healthier in some ways than the left coalition, where the radicals are content to bolt and let the right win rather than budge on any issues, and "moderates" are forced to compromise with them as a result, even at the expense of getting enough power to execute an agenda (this, IMO, is the real reason policy might be to the right of what the median voter would want). The flip side of it, though, is that rightists are willing to tolerate any level of personal corruption from their side, and leftists are not (see Blagojevich, Adams, Menendez, etc.), and the left is much healthier in that respect.

The ideal would be two parties that have a few clear policy priorities, a lot of tolerance for disagreement about other issues (about which each side can reach out to people on the other for votes), and no tolerance for personal corruption or incompetence.

See you in two months, dork

 

[SandisLL]

Oligarchy roots in Russia were different, in Ukraine too.

In these countries during economic crisis were beautiful privatisation processes...where who knew what will happen, had knowledge and info to buy for cheap a lot...

In west ofc corps and oligarchs are ruling and will rule their plebs. Endlessly, however in different form.

MAGA electorate can't get ... real life.

 

[PEB]

Happening everywhere across the country apparently a lot of people suddenly cannot afford their Cybertruck? Lol

 

[terrapin]

I didn't compare it to Russia but yes we are an oligarchy. As far as the past few pages I just said the price of a lotta stuff went up and Jack said I was wrong about everything, that's kind of an enormous detail everyone keeps sidestepping. I also don't care what they think of my assessment, I've no reason to be optimistic about the direction this country is headed. This didn't start with Trump. It's been decades in the making.

Good for him, he did a 180 from when he argued with me that money in politics isn't an issue then.

No, I don't know it, I stand by my opinions and statements that aren't opinions. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. ARE YOU BEING CYNICAL BRO?? Lol. Trump's incompetence is the only thing that kept him in check. I find that the more insulated people are the more likely they are to think everything is just dandy.

Has nothing to do with accelerationism nor sadism. The purity politics thing is trite nonsense. Wanting healthcare isn't "purity politics". Turns out Kamala had losers for advisors too which is why she got away from her good messaging at the beginning, also had a Biden person advising her who didn't like her.

He's not just old, he's battling cancer. Terrible pick. Fuck a public option, more half measure bullshit like the ACA. Biden ran on a public option (after saying he'd shoot down M4A, which, atop other things, assured he'd never have my vote) and did nothing after he was elected. This is why there's no trust in these people and no amount of brow beating the public is going to change that. In fact it'll only make it worse as it's done. The Dems lose when they don't capture enough of the left and swing voters. Wrong people to talk down to if they want to win elections, which I'm not convinced they give a shit about at this point judging by their actions. It's a damn geriatrictocracy.

A liberal voting for Bernie over the GOP means nothing. They'd have to turn in that D card if that didn't. That's an incredibly low standard. I don't say this stuff to be mean, I'm just being blunt.

The Democrats capitulating to Repbulicans and not stepping on their donor's toes is fucking us all. I will never relent on my irritation with liberals, particularly liberal politicians, not every individual liberal, I'm of course generalizing as I do with conservatives. I can't do anything about the Republicans. The liberals are obstructionists.

Adios bro, take care. DEUCES

It's fantastic how much you're being insulted called a sadist, nihilist, etc just for bringing up policy positions that would really help people. It's like people who are dead inside telling you not to feel alive.

It's like if someone made a movie where a bunch of people conspire to treat someone who was perfectly calm like that person was freaking out. It seems like it's made up sometimes the way people react to what you're saying. I wonder if they've even read what you're saying....

 

[terrapin]

I think false accusations should be banworthy. And trolling and flaming are against the rules here, though they're never enforced.

Do you mean like when you lied about him and pretended you didn't sidestep and then @Sinister came in and corrected you because you're a liar? Do you think those false accusations should be ban worthy too?

It's amazing to me that you can lie through your teeth right in front of everybody... have everybody see it and still think you're right.

You accuse people of being lunatics a lot and you say all kinds of slanderous insulting things about them. But then you think it's okay to pretend that someone telling you that you sidestepped as a personal insult? And invite them to engage in good faith discussion instead?

You are in dire need of some self-examination Jack.

And all you cowards that don't dare to call him out should be ashamed of yourselves and grow a pair.

 

[SandisLL]

The contention that US Democrats have been "too left" is comically absurd and flies

Dems are oligarchy supporting centrists.
Reps are oligarchy supporting right wing.
There is nothing left in U.S.
Cope reality. Russia is oligarchy supporting dreamland for example.Nothing special.

 

[Sinister]

Dems are oligarchy supporting centrists.
Reps are oligarchy supporting right wing.
There is nothing left in U.S.
Cope reality. Russia is oligarchy supporting dreamland for example.Nothing special.

Historically there were 2 Fathers of right wing thought (kinda ghey lol). I never remember their names but this came about after the French Revolution. One of them was a monarchist whose argument was that it's not that monarchy was fundamentally wrong, it was just that France had the WRONG monarchs.

The other placed his faith in the concept of markets, and the notion that if you make everything favor markets, then the cream would naturally rise to the top and stay that way.

Modern centrist/center-right Democrats are kind of a blend of both. It's not that billionaire wealth-hoarders are bad, it's that we just have the wrong ones that won capitalism. I've said it before but they still believe in socio-economic heirarchies, they just kind of care how comfortable the lowest people on the totem pole are in their predestined roles, and also sell them the idea that they're but one good idea away from being wealthy. Unless the lowest get tired of them, at which point they're perfectly ok with handing the keys to the fascists, because they know the fascists will preserve the heirarchy also. They'll just separate out most of the minorities and immigrants they dont like.

 

[Sinister]

@brothir , see?

And it's such a deep-rooted craziness that it's hard to even know where to start. I can point out that the "nothing" in that first paragraph (echoed later with "What's the last actual left thing that happened as a Country") can be refuted with a book-length response. But maybe it's not meant literally. But then we get to an argument about what is significant that is largely subjective (though I think it would just be stubbornness causing him to deny the significance of anything). On the popularity thing, voters perceived Clinton and Harris being further from the center and less in agreement with them, but that doesn't matter, apparently. I could ask for substantiation of the claim about progressives flipping in office. But that might again come down to subjective judgments (a lot of leftist loons would say AOC is an example of that!).

Your incessant need to frame every argument against your contentions as lunacy is a tired gimmick. Do better.

Your frame of mind is losing elections. Every time the Democrats cater to lukewarm centrism, they get their @sses handed to them in elections. The proof is in the pudding. People think lukewarm centrist establishment Democrats are "too left" because they' listen to media who tells them all day that they're trans-loving, illegal immigration-supporting Commies regardless of how far right they run or how many actual human beings they throw under the bus in response. People who want actual change dont vote for Democrats because they dont fight this sh*t and dont want to do anything that threatens the system that feeds them, in earnest. And now they're once again about to sit on their hands until the midterms, at least, as this incompetent moron and his panel of billionaires loot the Country and create more nonsensical cultural chaos. That's about all the good this mentality is doing right now.

I didn't though. Why not just try to address what I say as if I'm a human? I have always treated you respectfully, and you never give it back.

Now you're contending that I'm dehumanizing you? Come on. Ask literally ANY rightist here if I give you anywhere near the venom I give them. Even ones who respect me.

I put the kid gloves on for you. And I did address what you say, you waved off what I said with a nonsensical retort and when I said so, at this juncture you're suggesting that was dehumanizing.

 

[Mr Holmes]

Your incessant need to frame every argument against your contentions as lunacy is a tired gimmick. Do better.

Your frame of mind is losing elections. Every time the Democrats cater to lukewarm centrism, they get their @sses handed to them in elections. The proof is in the pudding. People think lukewarm centrist establishment Democrats are "too left" because they' listen to media who tells them all day that they're trans-loving, illegal immigration-supporting Commies regardless of how far right they run or how many actual human beings they throw under the bus in response. People who want actual change dont vote for Democrats because they dont fight this sh*t and dont want to do anything that threatens the system that feeds them, in earnest. And now they're once again about to sit on their hands until the midterms, at least, as this incompetent moron and his panel of billionaires loot the Country and create more nonsensical cultural chaos. That's about all the good this mentality is doing right now.



Now you're contending that I'm dehumanizing you? Come on. Ask literally ANY rightist here if I give you anywhere near the venom I give them. Even ones who respect me.

I put the kid gloves on for you. And I did address what you say, you waved off what I said with a nonsensical retort and when I said so, at this juncture you're suggesting that was dehumanizing.

Jack right now reading this.

 

[UberHere]

See you in two months, dork

Why is he gone for 2 months?

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Happening everywhere across the country apparently a lot of people suddenly cannot afford their Cybertruck? Lol

Those things looks so fucking stupid lmao

I actually think the tesla sedan looks fine. Not the kind of car I like, but it looks more or less like any asian import

The trucks look fucking retarded

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Why is he gone for 2 months?

He lost ANOTHER bet to @Rob Battisti. Turns out old Jackie Boy isn't quite the financial guru he tries to sell himself as.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Your incessant need to frame every argument against your contentions as lunacy is a tired gimmick. Do better.

Your frame of mind is losing elections. Every time the Democrats cater to lukewarm centrism, they get their @sses handed to them in elections.

Huh? Biden and Clinton are both conservatives. Obama ran on progressive ideals but governed as a Bush type war monger.

Progressives seem to do well locally for Dems in elections, but nationally the progressive platform is poison.