International Oligarchy is not just a Russian phenomenon. It exists right here in the USA.

[Islam Imamate]

My likes of his posts comes from the general observation that he gets gained up on if he says anything out outside of the mainstream by all the leftists who like each other's post, some of which are profound and direct lies.

And then politically I just think he's right in every single instance of debate with you or Jack or any of these other centrist Democrats who I think are a big part of the reason we lost the election to the worst candidate in history twice.

It's obvious now and pretty clear to everybody that Biden was unfit for a long time and is absolutely unfit right now. And you and many other centrist Democrats were the ones pretending not to see it or I'm afraid to say possibly ignorant enough not to see it when the rest of the world could.

The discussion going around deviake just to me highlights what's wrong with centrist left Democrats, the group think, the lying, the terrible policy positions, etc.

There's definitely lots of room for reasonable disagreements on some of the matters you've touched on there, my frustration is that some on the more populist flank of the left have little to no patience with those closer to the center. Of course you feel the opposite and I think both can be true at the same time. Some legitimate progressive ideas are dismissed too quickly as non-viable and sometimes good faith efforts by center-left liberals to compromise with progressives are seen as selling out or protecting corporate interests.

In this context I don't think I've been unreasonable, if anything the guy who refuses to address the specifics and instead accuses me of "nuance trolling" strikes me as the belligerent one.

Pro outsourcing, anti union = anti-labor and anti-american and you misrepresented me multiple times. Those aren't opinions.

Calling me anti-American is an opinion, bit of a nasty one if you ask me. I love America and I want what's best for it, I just happen to have a different vision than you do.

 

[deviake]

There's definitely lots of room for reasonable disagreements on some of the matters you've touched on there, my frustration is that some on the more populist flank of the left have little to no patience with those closer to the center. Of course you feel the opposite and I think both can be true at the same time. Some legitimate progressive ideas are dismissed too quickly as non-viable and sometimes good faith efforts by center-left liberals to compromise with progressives are seen as selling out or protecting corporate interests.

In this context I don't think I've been unreasonable, if anything the guy who refuses to address the specifics and instead accuses me of "nuance trolling" strikes me as the belligerent one.

Calling me anti-American is an opinion, bit of a nasty one if you ask me. I love America and I want what's best for it, I just happen to have a different vision than you do.

That involves outsourcing american labor for cheaper labor from abroad, weakening the middle class and the negotiating power of the american worker. Then, relying on the social safety net to support the people who's jobs have been outsourced.

Super pro America and pro worker. I don't know how I missed it this whole time

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

from my POV workers in general are better off with a strong labor market absent unions rather than benefitting a small slice of union employees at the expense of everyone else.

guy trying to shit on unions accidentally describes what happens when you DON'T have a union.

 

[Deleted member 577981]

There's definitely lots of room for reasonable disagreements on some of the matters you've touched on there, my frustration is that some on the more populist flank of the left have little to no patience with those closer to the center. Of course you feel the opposite and I think both can be true at the same time. Some legitimate progressive ideas are dismissed too quickly as non-viable and sometimes good faith efforts by center-left liberals to compromise with progressives are seen as selling out or protecting corporate interests.

In this context I don't think I've been unreasonable, if anything the guy who refuses to address the specifics and instead accuses me of "nuance trolling" strikes me as the belligerent one.

Calling me anti-American is an opinion, bit of a nasty one if you ask me. I love America and I want what's best for it, I just happen to have a different vision than you do.

Well it's definitely worse coming from the centrist democrats against the progressive thinkers. Since I've been on this forum I've had e a deep love for Bernie Sanders, I've watched the centrist left lie obfuscate slander call people childish, tell them to grow up, etc. Nearly every single response from centrist Democrats is condescending, arrogant and conceited and trying to act like the adults in the room when it comes to progressive thought.

It's definitely worse coming from the centrist Democrats towards the progressives than it is progressives towards the centrist democrats.

I've been on the receiving end of this myself and I'm hated so deeply by some centrist Democrats that they will side against me with Trump supporters just because I called Trump and some of his supporters c**** for intentionally degrading the country morally and spiritually in profound ways.


And we just watched democrats lose to the worst candidate in history twice while lying to our faces about biden's incompetence and unfitness for presidency and we were told to grow up and stop repeating right-wing talking points about Biden and of course it's come out that Biden is absolutely unfit. No surprise to anyone who was being honest with themselves.

There's no doubt all of our sides have deep problems cuz we're all so human and we're all so full of s*** but the centrist Democrats presently have the power and they act like conceited assholes all the time because of it and I think they're losing elections because of it now. And as I posted above, they are losing good people who are so sick of it that they end up switching sides even though I think that's really idiotic ultimately because the Republicans are way worse.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Well it's definitely worse coming from the centrist democrats against the progressive thinkers. Since I've been on this forum I've had e a deep love for Bernie Sanders, I've watched the centrist left lie obfuscate slander call people childish, tell them to grow up, etc. Nearly every single response from centrist Democrats is condescending, arrogant and conceited and trying to act like the adults in the room when it comes to progressive thought.

It's definitely worse coming from the centrist Democrats towards the progressives than it is progressives towards the centrist democrats.

I've been on the receiving end of this myself and I'm hated so deeply by some centrist Democrats that they will side against me with Trump supporters just because I called Trump and some of his supporters c**** for intentionally degrading the country morally and spiritually in profound ways.


And we just watched democrats lose to the worst candidate in history twice while lying to our faces about biden's incompetence and unfitness for presidency and we were told to grow up and stop repeating right-wing talking points about Biden and of course it's come out that Biden is absolutely unfit. No surprise to anyone who was being honest with themselves.

There's no doubt all of our sides have deep problems cuz we're all so human and we're all so full of s*** but the centrist Democrats presently have the power and they act like conceited assholes all the time because of it and I think they're losing elections because of it now. And as I posted above, they are losing good people who are so sick of it that they end up switching sides even though I think that's really idiotic ultimately because the Republicans are way worse.

Sure I agree that there's some bad apples in the center of the party but keep in mind I voted for Bernie twice so if anything I lean somewhat further from the center than I'm given credit for at least on economic issues. But even Sanders and AOC fail the purity test from the POV of some progressives. Those are the progressives who are the problem here, those who see any attempt to compromise with the system as is as selling out.

The main point of contention here is simply that I prefer robust cash transfers paid for by a higher taxes rather than strengthening unions. You can disagree with that but calling me anti-American for it like deviake does strikes me as petty name calling.

That involves outsourcing american labor for cheaper labor from abroad, weakening the middle class and the negotiating power of the american worker. Then, relying on the social safety net to support the people who's jobs have been outsourced.

Super pro America and pro worker. I don't know how I missed it this whole time

Cash transfers strengthen the negotiating power of workers, we saw that during the pandemic during the era of quiet quitting. They could only do so because of the extensive cash transfers that allowed the working and lower middle classes to save some money and thus be more picky with their jobs.

Like I said in the other thread there's a reason that Walmart has yet to return to 24 hr operations and its because they can't find workers willing to work through the night for what Walmart can afford anymore. That's not because Walmart employees unionized, its because of cash transfers.

 

[Islam Imamate]

guy trying to shit on unions accidentally describes what happens when you DON'T have a union.

Nope, that's what happens when you do have unions. Unions will insist on inefficient practices and a bloated workforce only to deliver a subpar product. When this happens in regards to public infrastructure like docks and public transit all of us suffer from the inefficiency, both from the wasted tax dollars and from the subpar infrastructure.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Nope, that's what happens when you do have unions. Unions will insist on inefficient practices and a bloated workforce only to deliver a subpar product. When this happens in regards to public infrastructure like docks and public transit all of us suffer from the inefficiency, both from the wasted tax dollars and from the subpar infrastructure.

this is not only completely and utterly false but backwards. you deem it as "inefficient" because those shoddy capitalist business models can't turn a profit on that labor value while paying workers their fair share. unions simply insist on fair pay and decent working conditions for all members, and it has absolutely no effect of the quality of the work. in actuality, without unions (and regulation), corners are consistently cut to maximize profit and that DOES ruin the quality of the work.

you think every laborer needs an oppressive boot on their neck to be productive, and that's unequivocally false.

 

[Islam Imamate]

this is not only completely and utterly false but backwards. you deem it as "inefficient" because those shoddy capitalist business models can't turn a profit on that labor value while paying workers their fair share. unions simply insist on fair pay and decent working conditions for all members, and it has absolutely no effect of the quality of the work. in actuality, without unions (and regulation), corners are consistently cut to maximize profit and that DOES ruin the quality of the work.

you think every laborer needs an oppressive boot on their neck to be productive, and that's unequivocally false.

It absolutely has an effect on the quality of the work. For example the Longshoremen's Union was resisting automation which would make docks more efficient just to justify their bloated workforce and that means we're left with poorly performing docks which is bad for the larger economy.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

It absolutely has an effect on the quality of the work. For example the Longshoremen's Union was resisting automation which would make docks more efficient just to justify their bloated workforce

so... they fought to not be replaced by robots lmao

and that means we're left with poorly performing docks which is bad for the larger economy.

they've performed well enough with human labor to build the world we live in, the docks are not "performing poorly" because the workers there refuse to be replaced by robots.

if your only perspective is that of someone who only seeks to generate profit, no matter the effect on society, i can see why you would want robots to have all the jobs. they're a one-time payment, a bit of annual maintenance, and they don't complain.

but if menial or "low-skilled" labor jobs were all replaced by automation, where would the vast majority of human beings around the world find a job?

 

[filthybliss]

but if menial or "low-skilled" labor jobs were all replaced by automation, where would the vast majority of human beings around the world find a job?

We would find ways to create more jobs as we have historically done.

 

[Islam Imamate]

so... they fought to not be replaced by robots lmao

Yes which means less efficiency. Imagine if your bank refused to use automation because it would "save" jobs and so there was no online banking. Would be good the workers at the bank whose jobs were saved but not for the rest of us.

they've performed well enough with human labor to build the world we live in, the docks are not "performing poorly" because the workers there refuse to be replaced by robots.

American ports are some of the worst performing in the developed world.

if your only perspective is that of someone who only seeks to generate profit, no matter the effect on society, i can see why you would want robots to have all the jobs. they're a one-time payment, a bit of annual maintenance, and they don't complain.

but if menial or "low-skilled" labor jobs were all replaced by automation, where would the vast majority of human beings around the world find a job?

Like I said I would support robust cash transfers.

We would find ways to create more jobs as we have historically done.

That's basically what I'm calling for though instead of UBI it would be a set of cash transfers that target the most vulnerable like the elderly, the disabled, children, and the caretakers of these groups. Add in unemployment benefits and that covers the vast majority of folks who are vulnerable under capitalism. We already have cash transfers for the elderly and the disabled, its time to bring back the expanded child tax credit.

 

[Cartiac]

There's no doubt all of our sides have deep problems cuz we're all so human and we're all so full of s*** but the centrist Democrats presently have the power and they act like conceited assholes all the time because of it and I think they're losing elections because of it now. And as I posted above, they are losing good people who are so sick of it that they end up switching sides even though I think that's really idiotic ultimately because the Republicans are way worse.

You may want to really think about what you are saying here. You say you do not like the people that are currently in power of the Democratic party and see people you consider to be good, switching to the Republican party.

Do you think those people are switching parties because they are no longer good people? Or maybe those good people switch because they feel the views of the people in that other party better align with their own at the moment which would make them good people as well.

Why would you stick with a party that has changed into something you don't agree with instead of sticking with the people that you do agree with that haven't changed?

 

[Mack Yancy]

We had a billionaire putting millions of dollars into a presidential candidate's campaign. Of course this should be a concern.

@Fox by the Sea doesn't have an issue with that part, though.

 

[Mack Yancy]

Agreed, if at all possible lol

THAT DIDN'T LAST LONG!

 

[Deleted member 577981]

You may want to really think about what you are saying here. You say you do not like the people that are currently in power of the Democratic party and see people you consider to be good, switching to the Republican party.

Do you think those people are switching parties because they are no longer good people? Or maybe those good people switch because they feel the views of the people in that other party better align with their own at the moment which would make them good people as well.

Why would you stick with a party that has changed into something you don't agree with instead of sticking with the people that you do agree with that haven't changed?

Your reading into these people you've never met and adding information that isn't accurate. Let me explain it for you...

These people were chased out of the Democratic party because they held slightly different opinions in the area of trans or crime or immigration. They were chased out by conceited arrogant people on the left who think they know everything and are condescending and profoundly arrogant.

But of the people that I know that were chased to the right... they are now going against the important principles that they stand for because all of them support unions.. all of them give to charity and all of them want a more bernie like government structure.... They see the left as as much of an impediment to a bernie-like government as the right, whereas the right agrees with them on certain issues that the left doesn't and mocks them for.

But to be shamed and mocked and ridiculed for having some social ideas that are outside of the cult of the left, combined with their need to have a tribe and inability to stand alone has chased them into the hands of their right.

A person like me has no problem not having a home or a tribe to call home. I'm used to it and it doesn't bother me at all but many personality types just by their nature have a really hard time even conceiving of not being a part of a tribe and a part of a larger social group and so they might find themselves on the right after they reject the left because they need a home.

In one person's case resentment and hurt feelings for being mocked by people on the left who they considered friends has got them resentful and angry which has given them a home with the Trump supporters because as we know Trump seems to primarily focus on uniting people behind hatred of the other.

In that person's case, it is further complicated by their Christian leanings which I share which you find more of a home for on the right, although it's usually not authentic Christianity, but a bastardized terribly nationalistic form of Christianity, which is hate-filled doesn't practice much self-examination and uses the scriptures to point others sin out instead of their own.

The person I'm speaking about now specifically will return to the left as an independent though if and when they work through the resentments and anger.

 

[ChosenOne]

You have strongly anti-labor positions - you're pro outsourcing and anti-union - so I called you anti-labor. I also said tax the wealthy "in every conceivable way" and you made it out l8ke I was against your tax ideas. I asked you if Jack lied multiple times and you won't answer and I said that hurts your credibility and no wonder you're boys, and this was after getting dog piled and told I was cynical, nihilistic, and my sanity was questioned. About half a dozen people of all political stripes who've posted here agree with me about Jack, not to mention his lies are right here to see.

You referred to people as "inputs"

You referred to workers displaced by outsourcing/corporate greed as, wtf did you say, "labor interruptions" - tgat wasnt it but something like that and ypu think the social safety net paying out due to outsourcing isn't somehow subsidizing corporate greed. Those are strongly anti-labor, anti-American positions, it just is what it is. The problem is you wanna be self righteous while holding these views. There's nothing to talk about no matter how much obfuscation and flowery language you use.

It's fine that you're anti-labor, we don't gotta talked about it, it's just that when you try to say "no actually" that I have a problem. Pretty sure you said a bunch of other disparaging things about me in the other thread, I only skimmed tho cuz I rolled my eyes pretty quickly

As someone who considers himself quite left 'Word' policing is one of the worst things to be accepted as a tactic by many on the far left.

This attempt to gotcha by trying to hold people to literal meanings of words even if they explain it with different context. This relentless 'but you said xxxx' so now i can throw that back at you as if it wins the argument and i can keep you make defending it, seems to come right out of leftists academia and it really is a scourge to leftist causes.

I have no comment on your over all debate as i think you both make good points, but i see over and over again, you trying to 'gotcha him' based on quoted words.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

We would find ways to create more jobs as we have historically done.

then that would not be more efficient. the only way it's more efficient is if you pay less people for more labor. if you just have to create another job for that person and hire them, why lay them off for a robot in the first place?

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Yes which means less efficiency. Imagine if your bank refused to use automation because it would "save" jobs and so there was no online banking. Would be good the workers at the bank whose jobs were saved but not for the rest of us.

well, a few problems with this. first, those people who work at the banks use banks too lol online banking also does not affect the brick and mortar bank in any negative way, and an online banking system adds further cost with IT, customer service, software licensing, specialty hardware, and server space/domain maintenance. the costs don't go down, they just make up for the cost in advertising revenue. go to any capital one, citi, BOA page right now and show me a page without some sort of collaborative brand deal or advertisement. every page on the internet has been made more "efficient" now and they all look like the UFC octagon.

American ports are some of the worst performing in the developed world.

do you think those other ports in the developed world aren't unionized? lol

 

[filthybliss]

then that would not be more efficient. the only way it's more efficient is if you pay less people for more labor. if you just have to create another job for that person and hire them, why lay them off for a robot in the first place?

I’m talking in a very abstract sense. The market generally finds a way to compose new jobs. We would also need to counterbalance the buffer period between jobs or retirement by expanding the welfare state.

Aren’t you a Leninist? It’s easy to criticize capitalism but can you make an argument for an alternative economic model?

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

I’m talking in a very abstract sense. The market generally finds a way to compose new jobs.

in what way? is there an example or two you could give me?

We would also need to counterbalance the buffer period between jobs or retirement by expanding the welfare state.

on whose dime? the tax dollars of the massive corporations who just tried to "save" a bunch of money with layoffs for automation, or the tax dollars of the now-jobless?

Aren’t you a Leninist? It’s easy to criticize capitalism but can you make an argument for an alternative economic model?

not so much a leninist, more of a titoist. and yes, i absolutely can, but nothing you haven't already heard explained by marx or at least other marxists.