International Oligarchy is not just a Russian phenomenon. It exists right here in the USA.

[Islam Imamate]

India is already the middle man when it comes to supplying us with Russian oil. It’s comical that Israel has maintained to avoid sanctioning Russia and aiding Ukraine. It partly explains why Macron and Starmer have been more hesitant with supplying Israel than Biden.

Even if you want to look through it in a realist standpoint, the loyalty towards Israel to this extent doesn’t make sense unless you consider the influence of lobbying.

Personally I'm not in agreement with BDS that we have to sanction and divest from Israel until all the Jews leave and hand the country over to the Arabs, I just think we should look at Israel like we do Turkey. Its a key strategic ally that nonetheless has its own independent foreign policy that does not always align with our own interests. Your pointing to their stance on the Ukraine invasion is a good example of that.

Yet people talk about this country like its Canada or the UK in terms of their values and interests align with ours. And meanwhile one of our real great allies, Japan, wants to save US Steel with a merger and suddenly its a matter of national pride that we block them from doing so. These decisions only make sense when you consider domestic politics. Israel is perceived as the good guy regardless of what they do so most Americans want her supported at the same time that Americans view foreign companies, possibly Asian ones in particular, as a negative influence on our economy therefore the POTUS will block mutually beneficial mergers with such companies.

 

[Jack V Savage]

We don't have leverage on Russia either and yet we sanctioned them.

Yeah, but Russia wasn't attacked. They can end the war whenever they want to.

Sanctions aren't just a polite suggestion to do the right thing, they're economic pain that reorients the political incentives in the country. If sanctioned the occupation would have an economic cost and Israel's leaders will have to justify that cost to their people. They might be able to in the short term but any government that governs under sanctions is vulnerable to other crises unseating them.

Somehow arms embargoes on Turkey are accepted even though they're a critical NATO ally but we can't question arms to Israel? I don't accept that. The reason we uncritically support Israel is largely because of domestic politics. Zionists are a powerful force in American politics for a variety of reasons and so there's tons of inertia that has to be overcome to do the right thing here. If someone wants to argue political capital can better be spent elsewhere that I can buy but the idea that we have no options to discourage what Israel does is what I don't buy.

Sure, I said that up top. A lot of Americans support Israel. It's all part of the mix. Hence "realistic" sanctions. We've had some influence. The question is about the limits of what is possible and the types of results different approaches would generate. Secondarily, I don’t think people appreciate the complexity of this or most issues, which is why I think they're drawn to the "lobbyists and donors are causing people not to do the obvious right thing" theory.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

does the money do more good for society being “grown” by a billionaire or spent by someone in the working class?

That's not the point of making money. The point of making money is to provide for yourself and your family.

 

[Jack V Savage]

India is already the middle man when it comes to supplying us with Russian oil. It’s comical that Israel has avoided sanctioning Russia and aiding Ukraine. It partly explains why Macron and Starmer have been more hesitant with supplying Israel than Biden.

Even if you want to look through it in a realist standpoint, the loyalty towards Israel to this extent doesn’t make sense unless you consider the influence of lobbying.

Personally I'm not in agreement with BDS that we have to sanction and divest from Israel until all the Jews leave and hand the country over to the Arabs, I just think we should look at Israel like we do Turkey. Its a key strategic ally that nonetheless has its own independent foreign policy that does not always align with our own interests. Your pointing to their stance on the Ukraine invasion is a good example of that.

Yet people talk about this country like its Canada or the UK in terms of their values and interests align with ours. And meanwhile one of our real great allies, Japan, wants to save US Steel with a merger and suddenly its a matter of national pride that we block them from doing so. These decisions only make sense when you consider domestic politics. Israel is perceived as the good guy regardless of what they do so most Americans want her supported at the same time that Americans view foreign companies, possibly Asian ones in particular, as a negative influence on our economy therefore the POTUS will block mutually beneficial mergers with such companies.

Responding to both of you here. "Domestic politics" I will grant. Lobbying, maybe, but only if we're careful about what we're talking about, which isn't a money corrupting issue as much as "a lot of voters support Israel" issue.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Yeah, but Russia wasn't attacked. They can end the war whenever they want to.

The occupation predates the Oct 7th attack and is the primary area of concern. In fact even before Oct 7th, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinians since the 2nd Intifada.

Sure, I said that up top. A lot of Americans support Israel. It's all part of the mix. Hence "realistic" sanctions. We've had some influence. The question is about the limits of what is possible and the types of results different approaches would generate. Secondarily, I don’t think people appreciate the complexity of this or most issues, which is why I think they're drawn to the "lobbyists and donors are causing people not to do the obvious right thing" theory.

The question should also be about how committed the US really wants to be to a rules based order and if it decides that it is part of that should be holding Israel to account according to that rules based order in regards to its indefinite occupation and illegal settlement activity. Of course under Trump the US won't be committed to that rules based order so its very on brand for him to wholly support Israel's illiberal government and policies but that Biden largely did so despite claiming to care about the liberal order was a disappointment.

Responding to both of you here. "Domestic politics" I will grant. Lobbying, maybe, but only if we're careful about what we're talking about, which isn't a money corrupting issue as much as "a lot of voters support Israel" issue.

Yes to be clear I acknowledge that many Americans sincerely support Israel and that's a major part of why Israel has support. It does go deeper than that as we've seen with AIPAC helping to primary politicians it doesn't see as favorable to their cause but there are limits to that kind of influence and it only exists because some number of Americans agree with that agenda.

 

[filthybliss]

Personally I'm not in agreement with BDS that we have to sanction and divest from Israel until all the Jews leave and hand the country over to the Arabs, I just think we should look at Israel like we do Turkey.

No one argues this. Not even Hasan Piker lol. I am not even opposed to a one state solution where Israel just annexes everything but they need to give everyone agency with voting rights and what not. Though, the only issue is that it doesn't suffice the ethnostate checkbox of a jewish state so Netanyahu sticks to this occupation thing where he wants the land without respecting the basic rights of people living on that land.

I just think we should look at Israel like we do Turkey. Its a key strategic ally that nonetheless has its own independent foreign policy that does not always align with our own interests. Your pointing to their stance on the Ukraine invasion is a good example of that.

Yet people talk about this country like its Canada or the UK in terms of their values and interests align with ours. And meanwhile one of our real great allies, Japan, wants to save US Steel with a merger and suddenly its a matter of national pride that we block them from doing so. These decisions only make sense when you consider domestic politics. Israel is perceived as the good guy regardless of what they do so most Americans want her supported at the same time that Americans view foreign companies, possibly Asian ones in particular, as a negative influence on our economy therefore the POTUS will block mutually beneficial mergers with such companies.

I agree with all of that.

Responding to both of you here. "Domestic politics" I will grant. Lobbying, maybe, but only if we're careful about what we're talking about, which isn't a money corrupting issue as much as "a lot of voters support Israel" issue.

Domestic policies, sure. But for foreign policy, we have multiple lobbying groups. It isn't specific to Israel thats why I said we should rip the band-aid with all of them. I endorse increasing politician's salaries for that mere reason alone. Additionally, I think you are overblowing American support for Israel the within country too and you are conflating it to supporting Israel's handling of the war which is pretty low.

 

[DoctorTaco]

That's not the point of making money. The point of making money is to provide for yourself and your family.

Agree. Elon has enough money to provide for his 12 kids, his self and his partner for the next 755,868 years (if we consider the average price per day to provide for yourself in America).

Seems a big excessive to me

 

[Islam Imamate]

No one argues this. Not even Hasan Piker lol. I am not even opposed to a one state solution where Israel just annexes everything but they need to give everyone agency with voting rights and what not. Though, the only issue is that it doesn't suffice the ethnostate checkbox of a jewish state so Netanyahu sticks to this occupation thing where he wants the land without respecting the basic rights of people living on that land.

Some people do agree with that even if not publicly, trust me I've definitely heard that take. Not saying its representative of all critics of Zionism like the Zionists would have you believe but its definitely out there.

Domestic policies, sure. But for foreign policy, we have multiple lobbying groups. It isn't specific to Israel thats why I said we should rip the band-aid of with all of them. I endorse increasing politician's salaries for that mere reason alone.

We do have foreign lobby groups but the sincere support for Israel that many Americans have is what makes the difference in how successful Israel is. Qatar can throw as much money at lobbying as they want at the US and its unlikely they will ever achieve the status that Israel has in the mind of the average low info American voter.

 

[filthybliss]

@cottagecheesefan I know that you regularly listen to Bannon. I’m curious about how you feel about this.

Now, of the four and half trillion dollars in revenue we get, how much is from corporate taxes? Only $500 billion. Since 2008, $200 billion has gone into stock repurchases. If that had gone into plants and equipment, think what that would have done for the country. I’m for a dramatic increase in corporate taxes. We have to increase taxes on the wealthy. For getting our guys’ taxes cut, we’ve got to cut spending, which they’re gonna resist. Where does the tax revenue come from? Corporations and the wealthy. And when they start squealing, we have a conversation. We’re all partners in this, everybody’s going to take a little pain, but the working people are going to take less pain than you guys.

‘We have to increase taxes on the wealthy’: Steve Bannon | Semafor

Steve Bannon talks about populism, the Trump agenda, and which Republicans need to lose.

www.semafor.com

 

[moreorless87]

I didn't compare it to Russia but yes we are an oligarchy. As far as the past few pages I just said the price of a lotta stuff went up and Jack said I was wrong about everything, that's kind of an enormous detail everyone keeps sidestepping. I also don't care what they think of my assessment, I've no reason to be optimistic about the direction this country is headed. This didn't start with Trump. It's been decades in the making.

Good for him, he did a 180 from when he argued with me that money in politics isn't an issue then.

No, I don't know it, I stand by my opinions and statements that aren't opinions. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. ARE YOU BEING CYNICAL BRO?? Lol. Trump's incompetence is the only thing that kept him in check. I find that the more insulated people are the more likely they are to think everything is just dandy.

Has nothing to do with accelerationism nor sadism. The purity politics thing is trite nonsense. Wanting healthcare isn't "purity politics". Turns out Kamala had losers for advisors too which is why she got away from her good messaging at the beginning, also had a Biden person advising her who didn't like her.

He's not just old, he's battling cancer. Terrible pick. Fuck a public option, more half measure bullshit like the ACA. Biden ran on a public option (after saying he'd shoot down M4A, which, atop other things, assured he'd never have my vote) and did nothing after he was elected. This is why there's no trust in these people and no amount of brow beating the public is going to change that. In fact it'll only make it worse as it's done. The Dems lose when they don't capture enough of the left and swing voters. Wrong people to talk down to if they want to win elections, which I'm not convinced they give a shit about at this point judging by their actions. It's a damn geriatrictocracy.

A liberal voting for Bernie over the GOP means nothing. They'd have to turn in that D card if that didn't. That's an incredibly low standard. I don't say this stuff to be mean, I'm just being blunt.

The Democrats capitulating to Repbulicans and not stepping on their donor's toes is fucking us all. I will never relent on my irritation with liberals, particularly liberal politicians, not every individual liberal, I'm of course generalizing as I do with conservatives. I can't do anything about the Republicans. The liberals are obstructionists.

Adios bro, take care. DEUCES

Again really I think its pretty obvious why the Dems(or rather certain dems) are supported by various big money donners because they want to make sure the party doesnt become genuiely progressive which could threaten there interests. I mean we very clearly saw the Israelis throwing money around to remove those critical of them in the house.

This whole "sensible centralist" viewpoint is just a carefully constructed media fantasy, basically a load of corporate media sources telling you centralists are the only pragmatic choice for even a small amount of progressive politics. The idea these people are "doing what good they can" is I think clearly nonsense at this stage, it seems so much more obvious that there just throwing out a bit of window dressing for PR whilst actually being directly opposed to most progressive politics. To me clining to this viewpoint when you've seen the reality just comes across as arrogant and cowardly, arrogant because you don't want to admit you were hoodwinked(and I was as well growing up) and cowardly because you don't want to face criticism from the establishment like dishonest cliams of anti-Semitism because you don't like genocide. Maybe worse in some cases when people cling to it in order to benefit their careers.

This talk of "purity" is nonsense as well, I would argue actually Biden is much more "pure" than Sanders, much more purely committed to the interests of the wealthy, much more purely committed to Israeli genocide and of course he faces far less criticism in the liberal mainstream media. Sanders is FAR from an ideolog and there's a great deal about him I would be critical of, the difference is though he is a genuine "compromise" candidate, someone who does seem credible when he claims to want to push progressive ideals within the current political system.

The truth is though that "sensible centralism" is not about that, it may try to sell itself as being so but the reality is its the idealogy of non compromise, its making sure that you have politicanss who are fully sold out to the oligarchy in power with a thin mask of liberalism. The sensible centralist is the key force holding back any kind of genuine progressive politics and making sure that anti establishment anger goes to the right instead.

 

[italiamusica]

Unless you're born into one of the mega rich families of the world, you're fucked. The average person is going to live a life of misery and struggle just so the rich nepo babies of the world can have more money and greed and power.

It literally feels like the only option is Fight Club, blow up major institutions and kill the shitty people in charge. None of these people are willingly going to give up their power and the fucked up things they do. How can someone have hundreds of millions of dollars, and that's still not enough? They still need more? That's a fucked human being who shouldn't exist.

 

[Kassitus]

Putin has a quid pro quo relationship with his oligarchs, but guys who only stick around for a few years can't make much demands. When we removed the monarchies we thought we also removed the aristocracy, but actually we just transfered the power of the aristocracy from those who's ancestors were medieval warriors to those whose ancestors made it big in finance.

 

[UberHere]

Unless you're born into one of the mega rich families of the world, you're fucked. The average person is going to live a life of misery and struggle just so the rich nepo babies of the world can have more money and greed and power.

It literally feels like the only option is Fight Club, blow up major institutions and kill the shitty people in charge. None of these people are willingly going to give up their power and the fucked up things they do. How can someone have hundreds of millions of dollars, and that's still not enough? They still need more? That's a fucked human being who shouldn't exist.

Sounds like you could use some help.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Unless you're born into one of the mega rich families of the world, you're fucked. The average person is going to live a life of misery and struggle just so the rich nepo babies of the world can have more money and greed and power.

Huh? That's not true at all.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

It literally feels like the only option is Fight Club, blow up major institutions and kill the shitty people in charge.

@Madmick

Just to be clear, what are the forum rules at this point regarding wishing death on people?

I thought they were pretty unambiguous but lately it seems like a lot of this kind of shit is getting posted and allowed to stay up.

I don't care if the rules have changed, but can we get an official update on what the new rules are so we know what we can and can't say?

 

[filthybliss]

@Madmick

Just to be clear, what are the forum rules at this point regarding wishing death on people?

I thought they were pretty unambiguous but lately it seems like a lot of this kind of shit is getting posted and allowed to stay up.

I don't care if the rules have changed, but can we get an official update on what the new rules are so we know what we can and can't say?

You are such a tattle tale lol

You are definitely the type of sleaze to remind the teacher’s about a pop quiz.

 

[filthybliss]

Again really I think its pretty obvious why the Dems(or rather certain dems) are supported by various big money donners because they want to make sure the party doesnt become genuiely progressive which could threaten there interests. I mean we very clearly saw the Israelis throwing money around to remove those critical of them in the house.

This whole "sensible centralist" viewpoint is just a carefully constructed media fantasy, basically a load of corporate media sources telling you centralists are the only pragmatic choice for even a small amount of progressive politics. The idea these people are "doing what good they can" is I think clearly nonsense at this stage, it seems so much more obvious that there just throwing out a bit of window dressing for PR whilst actually being directly opposed to most progressive politics. To me clining to this viewpoint when you've seen the reality just comes across as arrogant and cowardly, arrogant because you don't want to admit you were hoodwinked(and I was as well growing up) and cowardly because you don't want to face criticism from the establishment like dishonest cliams of anti-Semitism because you don't like genocide. Maybe worse in some cases when people cling to it in order to benefit their careers.

This talk of "purity" is nonsense as well, I would argue actually Biden is much more "pure" than Sanders, much more purely committed to the interests of the wealthy, much more purely committed to Israeli genocide and of course he faces far less criticism in the liberal mainstream media. Sanders is FAR from an ideolog and there's a great deal about him I would be critical of, the difference is though he is a genuine "compromise" candidate, someone who does seem credible when he claims to want to push progressive ideals within the current political system.

The truth is though that "sensible centralism" is not about that, it may try to sell itself as being so but the reality is its the idealogy of non compromise, its making sure that you have politicanss who are fully sold out to the oligarchy in power with a thin mask of liberalism. The sensible centralist is the key force holding back any kind of genuine progressive politics and making sure that anti establishment anger goes to the right instead.

Horseshoe theory back at it again. I’m anti-lobbying but even when you rip that band aid off. In a democratic society, there will always be a “middle ground” that political parties have to reach so “leftist” output isn’t insured because frankly ideas like abolish the police or rupture every institution in existence aren’t popular ideas to boot.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Horseshoe theory back at it again. I’m anti-lobbying but even when you rip that band aid off. In a democratic society, there will always be a “middle ground” that political parties have to reach so “leftist” output isn’t insured because frankly ideas like abolish the police or rupture every institution in existence aren’t popular ideas to boot.

That was a bizarre post. That guy's view of American politics is as full of factual inaccuracies and cartoonish views of the motives of anyone who disagrees with him as any QAnoner.

 

[deviake]

Horseshoe theory back at it again. I’m anti-lobbying but even when you rip that band aid off. In a democratic society, there will always be a “middle ground” that political parties have to reach so “leftist” output isn’t insured because frankly ideas like abolish the police or rupture every institution in existence aren’t popular ideas to boot.

Outside of 5 people on twatter I know of no one calling for the abortion of police. I also have no idea what "rupture every institution" means but the last time I checked no lefties were going after social security or Medicare and by euro standards even our liberal party is pretty rightwing

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

You are such a tattle tale lol

You are definitely the type of sleaze to remind the teacher’s about a pop quiz.

I'm just trying to get a clear picture of where we're at. If the rules have loosened up, I'd like to know that.