Okami = stronger than Silva? fibertypes, ESD, power training ratios

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Gotti McCarran, Mar 12, 2008.

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  1. Gotti McCarran

    Gotti McCarran Banned Banned

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    Came across this Fred on here today and nobody reads it any more. It made me write some stuff I feel is more useful in this forum. Here is why Anderson Silva is the better fighter.

    We all know that FT guys can carry lots of fat and still move quickly like Hunt or again Fedor.
    FT dominant guys also won't need to be as thick to be strong as hell. Take Anderson Silva as a "smaller" FT guy here for example. He is super fast, moves quick as hell, thus he is very powerful. There is always a chance he might gas against Okami in a title fight, although I doubt it. FT fibers use more energy and Okami seems to be the ST type.

    Anderson Silva could be even stronger than Okami. Okami has a 450 pound deadlift according to that poster. 450 pounds seems sort of lousy for a full time athlete.

    Before someone asks, I take myself as evidence that 450 at 185 pounds is not that great at all. I weigh like 205, but I got lots of fat. I could probably fight at 170. (no I couldn't lol, but I could weigh 170 and put on gloves, rotofl) I deadlifted like 500 before after 1,5 years of solid powerlifting training. I am strong, but not super strong.

    Sure MMA hasn't got the highest level of performance athletes, because being all around good with great technique is so much more important. I think it's true Okami is already a very strong fighter, but that's far from something that would make me think he can beat Anderson Silva.

    For the elite, well-rounded fighters duking it out against each other imo not strength, but power is the main thing that needs to be there. I'll get to that. Anderson proved more powerful and technical than Franklin and Franklin did well against Okami. I think Anderson might be stronger than Okami, but either way, he sure is more powerful.

    Even if Okami is stronger, is maximum strength really the most important thing in determining strength on the mat? I don't think it is at all and I'll tell you why, too.

    Let's talk about ratios here for a little bit. I know that doubling strength does more when you can only move your bodyweight to like double your bodyweight than it does for an already mediocre athlete. It'll make you a mediocre athlete if you aren't one yet. Does this continue on forever meaning the stronger the faster the better?

    Beyond 2 times your bodyweight is where performance training really starts to get going. Doubling your strength to 4 times your body weight doesn't do the same thing any more. this is why frequently strong folks tell you increasing the strength more didn't do all that much for them. From a shot putting friend I heard that elite putters get instantly better up until 220kg incline bench presses. From there on out the correlation seems to end. It's obvious why. It takes you too long to apply this strength. Packs of hypertrophied ST fibers become useless in such a quick movement. They might even bring down the power/weight ratio. Thus you might become worse. Another example of this. It takes some powerlifters 3 seconds to get maximum strength output. You never have that in an athletic movement. that's why things change when you are at mediocre strength levels.

    You'll need to train power beyond say 2,8 times your bodyweight (in the squat) almost exclusively. You are waaaaay strong at that point, getting more strength would be a waste of time.

    Up to 2,5 times you bodyweight it makes sense to train for strength increases. Okami seems to be at this point. 3,2 seems to be the ratio to shoot for with the pulls though. 2,5 is more what basketball players should shoot for in the squat before trying all these fancy programs that minimize the ESD. We'll get to that shit later though.

    Okami seems to be strong enough for almost all opponents. (Filho?) Is he powerful enough to deal with Silva though? That is the real question here.

    Let me tell you more about how things work if you train someone for performance. After having reached 2,5 times your bodyweight in the squat for example you need to train to use this strength if you want to be a high level athlete. A guy that can lift 2 times his bodyweight, but is able to get up to full power in less than a half a second is gonna be more explosive than a guy that can lift 3 times his bodyweight, but needs more than a second to work up to twice his bodyweight. This is where the misconception comes from that lifting strength doesn't mean anything. IT MEANS A WHOLE LOT. IT'S THE BASE OF YOUR ATHLETIC ABILITY.
    This is also why Anderson doesn't even need to exactly as strong as Okami (I believe he is though) He can use his FT makeup here. Short contraction times help him a lot. Okami strikes me as an ST guy. I dunno way, but I can somehow tell you from looking at someone. Must be years and years of athletic training in all kinds of disciplines, but I just got an eye for this.

    About the explosive strength deficit, you can compare some numbers and find out if you have an ESD and if so how big it is.For this do a depth jump from rock bottom position. This will give you more than a second to reach your power output. Than do the same thing out of a skipping movement as if you were rope skipping. Go 1-2-3-4-jump. This will give you less than a half second. Now measure both distances. Due to the tendons storing energy etc. you should get further with the second one and by 20% almost. If this is not the case you have an explosive power deficit. If you get further from rock bottom position you are waay string and lack lots of power. You are also likely an ST fiber guy. Now that's just a little indication and you need many tests to know wassup with an athlete, but it works remarkably well for lots of folks. If you do have one concentrate on power training for a while like weightlifting, explosive movements. Load the bar to half of your max weight you can lift and lift as quickly as you can. (pls don't do this if your technique is bad). this is not dangerous. You shouldn't overdo it though, because it is hell for tendons etc. Slowly work up to 65% over some weeks always trying to keep the speed high. (this one variation) This is what makes westside barbell so good. Go to their website and read Louis simmons and Dave Tate's material if you want to know about speed strength methods and what they do.

    Once again, this explosive strength deficit is always there. High level athletes train to minimize this ESD and optimize their technique. Low level athletes should work on gaining strength to work with first. they need not concentrate on this. Power training will only get these guys hurt. Mid level athletes need to start incorporating power training, but should still focus on strength. Technique as with anything is always paramount.

    Let's get into ST guys for a second again. I bet you Hughes can lift 550+ and due to ST make up can use this power in all kinds of directions grappling. That also goes to show that you can become super strong as a ST guy as well. You will need more muscle mass for it, but you can do it. That just goes to show that the above points are not exactly what makes or breaks one at all. Correct training for performance or not makes a hell of a lot bigger difference then insertion points or length of your arms.

    So to conclude the MMA folks saying lifting strength does not translate are right, but wrong. Total weight lifted is not that important in athletic endeavors. That is right. On the other hand it obviously is way important for most MMA guys that neglect this a lot, but not with mediocre to high level athletes. The better the athlete the less maximum strength or 1rm lifts will matter.

    Sry if I ump back and forth a bit. What do you think? Who is more powerful Anderson or Yushin? You think I am right or you think I'm an idiot that got it all twisted? Let's have some fun pls.
     
  2. WinterIsComing

    WinterIsComing Blue Belt

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    I think that is way too long for me to read.
     
  3. ChaseT.

    ChaseT. Banned Banned

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    I'm pretty sure there is not a basketball player on this planet who can squat 2.5xBW.
     
  4. takeahnase

    takeahnase watching the swarm

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    Most of what you said is reasonable I suppose, but it was horrifically difficult to follow. I also don't see how you come to the conclusion that Silva is the better fighter. All you did was state the hypothesis that power is more important than maximal strength and conjecture that Silva has more fast twitch fibers than Okami.
     
  5. thethirddiaz

    thethirddiaz vas a morir

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  6. Gotti McCarran

    Gotti McCarran Banned Banned

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    I'm sorry. very unorganised thought process indeed.

    Well he is the better fighter skillwise in just about all areas. grappling may be even. Being stronger has helped Okami a lot of times, so naturally it's his only hope to drag th fight out as long as possible and catch Silva then. People say he can get in the late rounds, because he is great defensively and very strong. I doubt he can for the reasons given. If you see that differently tell me why pls.
     
  7. bacon

    bacon Silver Belt

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    My eyes hurt.
     
  8. Donut62

    Donut62 Black Belt

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    I have no idea what the fuck point you are trying to talk about. Congratulations on reading some regurgitated Supertraining passages.
     
  9. Gotti McCarran

    Gotti McCarran Banned Banned

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    I played ball in highschool with some skinny kids that could squat double their bodyweight easily. I'm sure everyone with as much power as an NBA guard can squat 2,5 times his bodyweight. I should have said the smaller guard type. Of course Nowitzki can't squat 700 pounds. :icon_chee
     
  10. Chaseg1520

    Chaseg1520 Green Belt

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    Thank you for summarizing this monster in a short paragraph... no way in hell I was about to read that book of a first post...
     
  11. takeahnase

    takeahnase watching the swarm

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    I also don't think that 2.5bw is a big deal. I know a couple of 150lbs. road cyclists that can squat 300lbs.
     
  12. Gotti McCarran

    Gotti McCarran Banned Banned

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    Read that a long time ago, lol. The original, the Zatsiorsky, hundreds of studies on performance training, everything by Westside Barbell guys, half of the t-nnation forum, etc.

    I feel you can't discuss power often enough.

    My points are:

    1) Anderson Silva will make Okami look weak.
    2) Lifting strength does matter.
    3) Maximum strength is not an indicator for MMA performance.
    4) Power is an indicator for MMA performance.
     
  13. Donut62

    Donut62 Black Belt

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    You highly overestimate the importance of maximal strength in regards to being a good basketball player.
     
  14. Gotti McCarran

    Gotti McCarran Banned Banned

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    Yes cycling is a more advanced sport so to say in that the science has found it's way over there a long time ago.

    For MMA the myths about strength sadly live on.

    If I just said what everyone already knows, that's great, too. :icon_chee
     
  15. Gotti McCarran

    Gotti McCarran Banned Banned

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    Maybe you haven't heard, weightlifters consistently record higher verticals than both volleyball players and basketball players.

    NBA guys can all play brilliant basketball. Only the best athletes get the job. Whatever let's you jump higher is important. A correct routine will make you go much further then jump soles and they still get sold to this date, because they help with the ESD, strengthen tendons and do improve your vertical.

    Let me put it this way, can you name a baller that wouldn't like to jump another 5 inches or would hate quicker first two steps?
     
  16. bacon

    bacon Silver Belt

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    Regardless of strength or power, Silva will kick Okami's ass because he's a better fighter. Not to mention, he's still pissed about their last match. Or so the main page says.
     
  17. takeahnase

    takeahnase watching the swarm

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    Anybody with a 30" + vert can easily squat double bodyweight with some training. Most quick guards can jump pretty high.
     
  18. Gotti McCarran

    Gotti McCarran Banned Banned

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    Get up, go to the bathroom, put some water in your eyes, shake your head a little. Better yet?
    Look left and right, now faster, up down, faster, now change it up. Go as fast as you can for a minute. This helps. Feel fresh now? Use cold water on some napkins. Put that in your neck. Now breath deeply 4 times. Try sitting down and if god helps you maybe you can stay concentrated for those long 3 minutes you need to read it now. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Gotti McCarran

    Gotti McCarran Banned Banned

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    Well that won't help Okami either.
     
  20. ChaseT.

    ChaseT. Banned Banned

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    Are they going to allow heel kicks from the ground this time?
     
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