Elections Official Sherdawg Presidential debate round 1 PbP

[maximus__]

I would submit that if you really don't think that anyone can disagree with your preferred political messaging without being "fully biased," you should do a bit more self-reflection, and you probably aren't going to be able to profit from discussion until you do.

And little clips of him looking bored are not really evidence of anything. It's kind of remarkable to me that you think they are.

My preferred political messaging? I have no skin in the game. My comment was purely based on both candidates being crap, but one being in the early stages of a serious cognitive decline and incapable of doing the role policy positions aside. The other is just an old man who spends too much talking like he is still on Twitter. Neither should run the country.

You are biased, but everybody is. Your post was about how Biden is still more capable because you don't like how Trump would run the country, my position was Biden can't run the country. He is at the point where he needs to sign his power of attorney over to his wife to make any more serious decisions.

You are defending Biden, when you should be mad at this party for running him as a candidate against someone that should lose to anyone the Dems put up.
My personal opinion is they have written this election off, expect to possibly lose, will sacrifice Biden at the election and then bring in their preferred candidate after letting Trump run wild for 4 years.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I'm talking about mainstream media like NYT so I don't think its the result of some echo chamber if that's what you're implying.

People who aren't American can get a really distorted idea of the media landscape here. Many see the NYT and Fox ad equivalently biased on opposite sides, for example. And many don't know about the asymmetry with actual left-wing media (the most hardcore rightist media is extremely pro-Republican, while leftist media is very anti-Democratic Party). Rightists obviously call the center left extremists, but the far left hates the mainstream left more than they hate the right, and rightists are mostly OK with the far left.

 

[maximus__]

People who claim that Biden staring into space with his mouth hanging open does NOT resemble

I'll say this right now:

Those here saying that Joe staring off into space with his mouth hanging open doesn't resemble those with dementia they've interacted with either:

1. Haven't actually interacted with people who have dementia or

2. Are lying about not seeing that it's a red flag and looks just like what dementia patients sometimes look like.

That's not to say he absolutely, 100% has dementia and I can diagnose from here. People develop weird tics, etc and this could just be a coincidence that his mimics one of the telltale signs of dementia. But saying you've been around those with dementia but he doesn't seem like he has the signs is first rate BULLSHIT.

I never said staring off into space, that is what people do in movies. My specific comment was on him constantly looking to people for support and cues.
He isn't staring off into space, he is staring at Jill (his wife) and she is the one keeping him together. It's what usually happens when a couple that have been together for years have one of them cognitively going. The other steps up and covers for the other until eventually they can't manage anymore and someone ends up in a home or both do.

Of course I can't diagnose him over the internet, but people defending this just saying he is bored etc are just lying. We have a campaign 4 years ago to compare this to. Look at the differences in how he presents and I am not even talking about the debates.

 

[mkess101]

Well if you think I'm delusional or whatever then let's just leave it at that if we can't have good faith disagreements without descending into that kind of discourse.

Don't be melodramatic dude. I didn't say you "were delusional". I said you're absolutely deluding yourself, and (let's be honest, there's no way I should even have to lay this all out because you're smart enough and then some to know it already) there are levels to which people delude themselves. Do you think myself or anyone hasn't deluded themselves to a degree about stuff at different points in our lives? Doesn't make us bad people and doesn't mean we're incapable of good faith discussion. It's just a byproduct of biases we all hold.

Levels. If you were here saying "Biden is on his A game right now, looks sharper than he did at 45. Arguably the best debate performance I've ever seen"--I'd say "Okay dude is actually full on delusional and not worth talking to at all on this". As it stands, you're just deluding yourself a little imo. Just enough to squeak by and justify thinking he can handle 4+ more years in office. You acknowledge there's decline, you just can't quite bring yourself to get all the way to the reality of it imo. Not an egregious thing, but that's how I see it. You can make arguments as to why that's not true but don't act all aggrieved like I said you should be institutionalized or something LOL.

 

[mkess101]

I never said staring off into space, that is what people do in movies. My specific comment was on him constantly looking to people for support and cues.
He isn't staring off into space, he is staring at Jill (his wife) and she is the one keeping him together. It's what usually happens when a couple that have been together for years have one of them cognitively going. The other steps up and covers for the other until eventually they can't manage anymore and someone ends up in a home or both do.

Of course I can't diagnose him over the internet, but people defending this just saying he is bored etc are just lying. We have a campaign 4 years ago to compare this to. Look at the differences in how he presents and I am not even talking about the debates.

No, it's ME saying he's staring off into space. And sometimes he WAS. (Not even looking in the direction of Jill or anyone else). Sometimes it was in Jill's direction yeah.

I'm not sure you necessarily understood the gist of my post though. Or I'm not grasping yours fully maybe.

 

[Jack V Savage]

My preferred political messaging? I have no skin in the game. My comment was purely based on both candidates being crap, but one being in the early stages of a serious cognitive decline and incapable of doing the role policy positions aside. The other is just an old man who spends too much talking like he is still on Twitter. Neither should run the country.

I have no skin in the game either. I just don't happen to think that GOP messaging is accurate. It's fine if you do, but you don't make that case just by accusing anyone who disagrees with you of bias.

You are biased, but everybody is.

Except you, apparently.

My view is that we all have biases, and we all have tools to try to overcome them. Just saying "both guys are bad" doesn't make all your biases go away (and, in fact, bothsidesism is a bias).

Your post was about how Biden is still more capable because you don't like how Trump would run the country, my position was Biden can't run the country. He is at the point where he needs to sign his power of attorney over to his wife to make any more serious decisions.

Don't know what country you're in, but in America, the president doesn't run the country. He runs the Executive Branch of the federal gov't, and Biden has been running it extremely effectively. Previously, Trump ran it and was a disaster. The weight of the evidence is strongly on the side of Biden being more capable.

You are defending Biden, when you should be mad at this party for running him as a candidate against someone that should lose to anyone the Dems put up.
My personal opinion is they have written this election off, expect to possibly lose, will sacrifice Biden at the election and then bring in their preferred candidate after letting Trump run wild for 4 years.

I'm defending reality. And we have primary elections in America. Get mad at the voters if you don't like the choices.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Don't be melodramatic dude. I didn't say you "were delusional". I said you're absolutely deluding yourself, and (let's be honest, there's no way I should even have to lay this all out because you're smart enough and then some to know it already) there are levels to which people delude themselves. Do you think myself or anyone hasn't deluded themselves to a degree about stuff at different points in our lives? Doesn't make us bad people and doesn't mean we're incapable of good faith discussion. It's just a byproduct of biases we all hold.

Levels. If you were here saying "Biden is on his A game right now, looks sharper than he did at 45. Arguably the best debate performance I've ever seen"--I'd say "Okay dude is actually full on delusional and not worth talking to at all on this". As it stands, you're just deluding yourself a little imo. Just enough to squeak by and justify thinking he can handle 4+ more years in office. You acknowledge there's decline, you just can't quite bring yourself to get all the way to the reality of it imo. Not an egregious thing, but that's how I see it. You can make arguments as to why that's not true but don't act all aggrieved like I said you should be institutionalized or something LOL.

How am I deluding myself exactly? I already said he's old and sleepy but because I'm not going to diagnose him with dementia I'm delusional? Just comes off as you not being able to accept that I might arrive at that conclusion through good faith. Trump himself looks incredibly diminished from his younger years but this is almost never pointed out for some reason. Imagine a GOP candidate before 2016 talking about "black jobs", their campaign would've been over but Trump gets a pass for some reason.

 

[king hippo]

i mean, you're just repeating right wing bullshit. I think Biden looks and acts like a typical 80 year old. Then i look at trump and see a derranged lunatic that can't tell the truth if his life depended on it, steals from children with cancer, steals classified documents for god knows what, steals, defrauds, steals, defrauds... are you seeing a pattern? is he stealing from you or defrauding you? or are you still figuring that out?

good lord...the epic copery in this one...

"biden acts like the standard 80 year dementia patient but trump steals and defrauds! don't you see the pattern? severe dementia makes biden the BETTER guy to be in charge of the nuclear codes than a guy who steal from charities".

good god you guys are off the deep end. silly of me for thinking you people were normal.

 

[mkess101]

How am I deluding myself exactly? I already said he's old and sleepy but because I'm not going to diagnose him with dementia I'm delusional? Just comes off as you not being able to accept that I might arrive at that conclusion through good faith. Trump himself looks incredibly diminished from his younger years but this is almost never pointed out for some reason. Imagine a GOP candidate before 2016 talking about "black jobs", their campaign would've been over but Trump gets a pass for some reason.

I mean I guess I'd point out the members of his own party going into panic mode calling it "a disaster" etc. The blank stares with his mouth open, him not being able finish sentences numerous times. These are things being pointed out by people who want him to win! This isn't just "old and sleepy". You don't have to offer a diagnosis of dementia to accept that there's severe diminishment of mental acuity.
I don't necessarily disagree about the Trump point but again, even people who are fully on team Biden are pointing out how much sharper Trump was. (Not honest mind you--that's not something Trump seems too interested in or maybe even is capable of--but the contrast in how "with it" each of them were was "staggering" according to some major Dem donors).

It's a little weird you'd think someone deluding themselves a bit also couldn't be trying to come to conclusions in good faith. As humans, we subtlety justify a lot to ourselves in order to have our worldview validated. Confirmation bias, etc are all tools we use. I don't think you're intentions are dishonorable, I think you're seeing thing skewed a bit so they look just close enough to how you want them to look. Again, that's my opinion on your view. And of course I'm sure you can and will dismiss it and that's fine.

 

[terrapin]

You're talking to someone I ignore, but has it ever occurred to you to maybe try communicating in a respectful, decent way to people? There are some it doesn't make a difference with, but I find it generally leads to better results.

Jack, you have lost 100% of your credibility. You're an absolute hypocrite. And everything you say even when it's true is also a projection.

You walk around in a permanent state of offense about everything that doesn't agree with you exactly.

I would tend to your own self if I were you.

 

[maximus__]

I have no skin in the game either. I just don't happen to think that GOP messaging is accurate. It's fine if you do, but you don't make that case just by accusing anyone who disagrees with you of bias.

Except you, apparently.

My view is that we all have biases, and we all have tools to try to overcome them. Just saying "both guys are bad" doesn't make all your biases go away (and, in fact, bothsidesism is a bias).

Don't know what country you're in, but in America, the president doesn't run the country. He runs the Executive Branch of the federal gov't, and Biden has been running it extremely effectively. Previously, Trump ran it and was a disaster. The weight of the evidence is strongly on the side of Biden being more capable.

I'm defending reality. And we have primary elections in America. Get mad at the voters if you don't like the choices.

100% I am bias, but I am limited in that in this situation because I can't vote. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. I am not commenting on either of their political policies, just how they are presenting to the public eye. Trump needs a handler in terms of social media, Biden needs one to get through his day to day life. Neither should be in the position they are in regardless of their parties policies.

Blame the voters? Nope, they can vote for whichever idiot they want. Both parties should remove their support for these two as candidates for them. Instead they will support whoever they think will get them the Presidency.

 

[scoopj]

People that say vote for RFK probably never even listened to him speak.

Definitely sounds like he's going through some issues lately.

Not just lately. He’s been a conspiracy theorist for years. He believes certain vaccines cause autism.

 

[maximus__]

No, it's ME saying he's staring off into space. And sometimes he WAS. (Not even looking in the direction of Jill or anyone else). Sometimes it was in Jill's direction yeah.

I'm not sure you necessarily understood the gist of my post though. Or I'm not grasping yours fully maybe.

Political parties aside it's genuinely sad. I think rereading your post we actually agree and I initially misread it.
I am basically saying he is looking for cues because he isn't cognitively there in his public appearances. He isn't just staring off into space lost, he is actively looking for assistance via cues and things that make him feel safe in uncomfortable situations for himself. You can see him dropping in and out from being with it and then not with it.

He remembers having done this political stuff for years and can pull it together occasionally, but when he isn't actively speaking or doing something he mentally wanders off and it shows.
Sometimes he can switch it back on, but other times he stays lost. That's when we get the speaking foibles that we got with the debate. He knows he has to speak, but can't remember what it's about, so we get those "senior moments" and he defaults to talking shit about Trump only.

 

[idrankyourbeer's maid]

 

[mkess101]

Political parties aside it's genuinely sad. I think rereading your post we actually agree and I initially misread it.
I am basically saying he is looking for cues because he isn't cognitively there in his public appearances. He isn't just staring off into space lost, he is actively looking for assistance via cues and things that make him feel safe in uncomfortable situations for himself. You can see him dropping in and out from being with it and then not with it.

He remembers having done this political stuff for years and can pull it together occasionally, but when he isn't actively speaking or doing something he mentally wanders off and it shows.
Sometimes he can switch it back on, but other times he stays lost. That's when we get the speaking foibles that we got with the debate. He knows he has to speak, but can't remember what it's about, so we get those "senior moments" and he defaults to talking shit about Trump only.

Yeah I got ya, and yeah I think you lay it out pretty well. I do think there were times where his mind just sort of blanks and he's not actively looking for anything but is just trying to find his way back to what he's currently supposed to be doing in his own mind. But you're also likely right that he's sometimes looking for visual cues to bring him back between the guardrails.

I watched my mom go through a very rapidly progressing type of early onset dementia (she passed away a few years ago). Some of his actions do resemble her, very early on in her diagnosis. It's absolutely brutal seeing someone go through it, I hope he doesn't actually have dementia but there are at least early warning signs he might.

 

[Rob Battisti]

72% and 41% still being ignored

 

[maximus__]

Yeah I got ya, and yeah I think you lay it out pretty well. I do think there were times where his mind just sort of blanks and he's not actively looking for anything but is just trying to find his way back to what he's currently supposed to be doing in his own mind. But you're also likely right that he's sometimes looking for visual cues to bring him back between the guardrails.

I watched my mom go through a very rapidly progressing type of early onset dementia (she passed away a few years ago). Some of his actions do resemble her, very early on in her diagnosis. It's absolutely brutal seeing someone go through it, I hope he doesn't actually have dementia but there are at least early warning signs he might.

It looks to me like what I have seen with couples married for years and one person hiding it from the rest of the family for as long as possible.
Difference being is he is doing it on the public stage, but he has been a politician his whole life and can cope well when he is the one presenting. You notice it more when it's not him speaking in some ways because he doesn't have anything to focus on and do.

Same thing when dementia patients are moved from their homes into a care facility far away. They manage to somehow get public transport back to the area they are familiar with and you find them seemingly ok in a local cafe or park appearing to be physically fine. Then it progresses and they end up just walking in one direction endlessly because they can never find that familiar area.

 

[AWilder]

good lord...the epic copery in this one...

"biden acts like the standard 80 year dementia patient but trump steals and defrauds! don't you see the pattern? severe dementia makes biden the BETTER guy to be in charge of the nuclear codes than a guy who steal from charities".

good god you guys are off the deep end. silly of me for thinking you people were normal.

Coping like a non-american larping on a karate forum ? Am I coping like that?

 

[idrankyourbeer's maid]

 

[mkess101]

72% and 41% still being ignored

To be fair, @Islam Imamate addressed it. I think his reply was a bit...lacking in terms of context but he didn't duck it like Jack.