Nog vs Sergei 18 years ago

[Jewish Lightning]

This dude is a previously banned poster who'll no doubt get himself banned again soon, I wouldn't waste the energy and wear and tear on your keyboard.

You have me mistaken good sir.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

Dude could barely outgrapple Volkov, a mediocre fighter at best. Balydes is a mediocre JNCO wrestler.

Did Coleman, Waterman, Erickson, Kerr, etc etc lot of other big guys with better wrestling credentials not exist or something before?

He has a UFC fan boy narrative to uphold.

 

[pankrat]

Dude could barely outgrapple Volkov, a mediocre fighter at best. Balydes is a mediocre JNCO wrestler.

Did Coleman, Waterman, Erickson, Kerr, etc etc lot of other big guys with better wrestling credentials not exist or something before?

We are in 2022, friend. You should know by now that credentials in a particular discipline, under very restricted rule sets, dont necesarilly trasnlate to MMA, or even barely translate at all.

Mirko Cro Cop at the peak of his ability as a kickboxer looked extremely pedestrian standing with Wand in their first fight. There are countless examples of this, from BJJ standouts who get brutaized in the ground in MMA, wrestling, judo, boxing, or standouts in any other particular discipline who fails to translate into MMA.

Blaydes hit 14 TDs on Volkov, who is certainly better than "mediocre at best" (ridiculous statement btw)

Im also pretty sure that 200lbs Bustamante, as good as he was, would not go to a draw after 40 minuts underneath Blaydes, as he went with Tom Eriksson. Nor WW Pat Miletich, as he went with another more accomplished wrestler in Severn.
They would get brutalized. Or you think otherwise?

 

[pankrat]

You have me mistaken good sir.

Nah, I trust him.
Dont get mad though

 

[Hellowhosthat]

You have me mistaken good sir.

I don't believe I do.

 

[TR1]

We are in 2022, friend. You should know by now that credentials in a particular discipline, under very restricted rule sets, dont necesarilly trasnlate to MMA, or even barely translate at all.

Mirko Cro Cop at the peak of his ability as a kickboxer looked extremely pedestrian standing with Wand in their first fight. There are countless examples of this, from BJJ standouts who get brutaized in the ground in MMA, wrestling, judo, boxing, or standouts in any other particular discipline who fails to translate into MMA.

Blaydes hit 14 TDs on Volkov, who is certainly better than "mediocre at best" (ridiculous statement btw)

Im also pretty sure that 200lbs Bustamante, as good as he was, would not go to a draw after 40 minuts underneath Blaydes, as he went with Tom Eriksson. Nor WW Pat Miletich, as he went with another more accomplished wrestler in Severn.
They would get brutalized. Or you think otherwise?

IF we are goign to pick arbitrary data points like you did above....Blaydes looked medicore vs Mark Hunt in....2018 lol. Think about that for a second.

It's easy to brutalize people when you fight mostly fossils or total nobodies, which is a summation of Blayde's career.
Had he been fighting in a time when the division actually produced good talent in their late 20s, he would do performing very poorly indeed. Or at the very least, poorer than he has today.

Justin Willis went to a decision with Blaydes. What, does his extra 40 pounds of fat make up for his absolutely white belt grappling skills?

Big fighters existed before. This isn't anything new. The difference is the age and ability of the division to replace established talent with sufficient depth, something it has clearly and consistently struggled with for the last decade and a half.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I give you examples of plenty of separate years in Mirko's carrer where he lost or showed flaws. Most recently, I did to a fight just some months after the Wand rematch you referenced and you dismised it as well.

That sentence you quoted is something I never said. Regarding Gane, what I said is that his standup game (footwork, range control and striking diversity) makes much harder to initiate advantageous grappling exchanges than what is common today or back then, which coupled with his physicality I do think he would be a hard guy to beat in any era.

You have a sick obsession with Derrick Lewis. I'd say the fact the you need to reference him as the best representative of the modern era exposes your bias

Of course you hardly gonna see Lewis or any other 260lbs behemot - aside form Gané, actually - floating around light on their fight, but this take us back to my point that you diddnt addres, which is that physicality makes a big difference mate, and its btw a tendency that we are watching in any other major sport, including combat sports as boxing, not just MMA.

If you want to see more agile and fluid fighters in modern day as you see in Nog and Sergei, try to take a look at the top guys at LHW, who step into the cage about as heavy as Sergei and Nog in their fight. Yet they remain at LHW for a reason.

Mirko wasnt flawless but in terms of takedown defence he was I think pretty well prooven, the only man ever to avoid being taken down by Coleman until Randy fighting a broken down version on the verge of retirement years latter. I think you know that bringing up fights like Wanderlei and Sakuraba from 2002 really isnt being honest about the abilties he showed, modern fighters we have loses excused as there being green 3-4 years into their careers yet this was less than 1 year into Mirko's whilst fighting part time.

To be honest I wouldnt make any bold claims that a peak Nog would definately get Gane or Francis down easily or anything, its moreso I take issue with your dismissing claims that he wouldnt have any hope of doing so which really I don't see much hard evidence for. Again I think you fall into the trap of assuming that a modern hyped MMA fighter MUST be a well rounded fighter.

I mean at LHW as well before Jan/Glover the idea that Jan would show really poor anti grappling ability just would have been totally dismissed by a lot of Sherdog, Jan is a UFC champ and a modern UFC champ MUST be evolved and very well rounded because thats what the hype tells us. I don't trust hype I trust what I see with my eyes and at LHW./HW in the UFC I see divisions there there is a big durth of strong grappling ability, at LHW espeically I think deliberately so with there canning guys like Bader and Davis.

I mention Lewis because really he's a massively sucessful fighter and whilst he can be fun to watch sometimes skill wise I don't think his sucess speaks to the quality of the HW division. He';d have been a credable fighter 15 years ago but he wouldnt be a consistent top 5 guy. The idea that Lewis represents an evolution over that older era really is expressed pretty often on Sherdogt as well.

 

[pankrat]

Mirko wasnt flawless but in terms of takedown defence he was I think pretty well prooven, the only man ever to avoid being taken down by Coleman until Randy fighting a broken down version on the verge of retirement years latter. I think you know that bringing up fights like Wanderlei and Sakuraba from 2002 really isnt being honest about the abilties he showed, modern fighters we have loses excused as there being green 3-4 years into their careers yet this was less than 1 year into Mirko's whilst fighting part time.

To be honest I wouldnt make any bold claims that a peak Nog would definately get Gane or Francis down easily or anything, its moreso I take issue with your dismissing claims that he wouldnt have any hope of doing so which really I don't see much hard evidence for. Again I think you fall into the trap of assuming that a modern hyped MMA fighter MUST be a well rounded fighter.

I mean at LHW as well before Jan/Glover the idea that Jan would show really poor anti grappling ability just would have been totally dismissed by a lot of Sherdog, Jan is a UFC champ and a modern UFC champ MUST be evolved and very well rounded because thats what the hype tells us. I don't trust hype I trust what I see with my eyes and at LHW./HW in the UFC I see divisions there there is a big durth of strong grappling ability, at LHW espeically I think deliberately so with there canning guys like Bader and Davis.

I mention Lewis because really he's a massively sucessful fighter and whilst he can be fun to watch sometimes skill wise I don't think his sucess speaks to the quality of the HW division. He';d have been a credable fighter 15 years ago but he wouldnt be a consistent top 5 guy. The idea that Lewis represents an evolution over that older era really is expressed pretty often on Sherdogt as well.

Yeah, when I get into this kind of debates I dont talk about UFC alone, Im talking about the top talent present in MMA scene as a whole, regardless of the bussiness decisions of a particular organization that let go top talent as Mousasi, Davis or Bader, or doesnt make a decent offer to many others.

Im not writing off Nogueira vs current top HWs. Im adressing the evidence that we see superior physical specimens today, or more well-rounded at that than those from back in the day, and that it makes a big difference in fighting, and particularly at HW, and actually Ngannou is a prime example of it.

Now, despite the so called evolution in MMA, Im not confident on any fighter today beating prime Nog or Sergei at 225lbs. I do think some of them would make it competitive, but they could lose. I do think though that the physicality of a Ngannou or Gane adds a major difficullty to handle

I dont think anybody sells the idea that precisely Lewis represents an evolution over the past generations. I think most agree that he is a guy with very limited skill set but freak power and extraordinary athleticism (which often gets underrated due to his bodytype)
Lewis is a guy who was being outskilled by Volkov, Shamil, to some extent by Blagoi and even a LHW in Lafiti, apart from Hunt, JDS or Cormier. He can land and the fight is over as he can be outworked by fringe top10 guys.

 

[fatmanthenextbatman]

i remember this fight. at the time, serg and nog were both undefeated in Pride if i'm correct. Nog's bjj, boxing, durability and movement was pretty damn good back then. Sergei was brutal having good boxing, sambo and gnp. definitely one of my fav fights from the old days.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Yeah, when I get into this kind of debates I dont talk about UFC alone, Im talking about the top talent present in MMA scene as a whole, regardless of the bussiness decisions of a particular organization that let go top talent as Mousasi, Davis or Bader, or doesnt make a decent offer to many others.

Im not writing off Nogueira vs current top HWs. Im adressing the evidence that we see superior physical specimens today, or more well-rounded at that than those from back in the day, and that it makes a big difference in fighting, and particularly at HW, and actually Ngannou is a prime example of it.

Now, despite the so called evolution in MMA, Im not confident on any fighter today beating prime Nog or Sergei at 225lbs. I do think some of them would make it competitive, but they could lose. I do think though that the physicality of a Ngannou or Gane adds a major difficullty to handle

I dont think anybody sells the idea that precisely Lewis represents an evolution over the past generations. I think most agree that he is a guy with very limited skill set but freak power and extraordinary athleticism (which often gets underrated due to his bodytype)
Lewis is a guy who was being outskilled by Volkov, Shamil, to some extent by Blagoi and even a LHW in Lafiti, apart from Hunt, JDS or Cormier. He can land and the fight is over as he can be outworked by fringe top10 guys.

Really I think a big issue is that today a lot of fighters in those higher weightclasses you never or very rarely see them tested in all areas in the way you did in the past, back 15 years ago it would be rare you didnt see a top HW tested against elite striking, wrestling and sub fighting but today a lot of the division does seem to be just big guys with some power swining until someone falls over. Its much easier to imagine weaknesses don't exist if you don't see them and I think the UFC have played on that hype wise.

The equivalent of someone who got by strongly on physical gifts for me back in the day would be Fujita, he was a pretty good wrestler technically I spose but it was the chin/power that made him legit. I feel generally back then though you couldnt go as far purely by physical gifts, many fighters had them but also more tecnique to go with them than we see from much of the top 10 today.

I feel like as well this is allowing more questionable training enviroments to carry on for longer as well, Gane for example really should have been better than we saw grappling wise vs Francis after that amount of time. I feel like he lost that fight rather than Francis won it.

 

[Final Say]

Big Nog
Fedor
Crocop
Sergei
Alex
Josh
Werdum
Herring
Fujita
Hunto/Schilts or Coleman/Randleman

MMA evolution 18 years later, UFC is the best eva! New Breeds!

Ngannou
Stipe
Gane
DERRICK LEWIS
Blaydes
Volkov
Rozenstruik
Daukaus
Shamill
Tybura

I mean… blaydes would beat the majority of the top list. But it’s all good, I know not many want to admit that kinda thing

 

[Jewish Lightning]

I mean… blaydes would beat the majority of the top list. But it’s all good, I know not many want to admit that kinda thing

The same Blades who was nearly KOd by 50 year old Mark Hunt? The same Blades who just got knocked dead by the one dimensional Derrick Lewis? The same Blades who could hardly out grapple Volkov and was sucking wind so hard after 15 minutes of grappling him that he nearly died and couldn't even do a post fight interview? He'd get mopped by the majority of the top of that list just like Lewis would, especially in 10 minute first round setting. Say you're a UFC fan boy who wasnt watching the sport then so you have a recency bias without saying you're a UFC fan boy who wasnt watching the sport then so you have recency bias lol

 

[Shaddows]

Hard to believe this was almost 20 years ago. Seeing this makes me sad about the HW division of today. Here you have two HWs in their 20s with incredible speed, power, technique and endurance backed by world class skill in multiple disciplines.

Sergei was a paratrooper and master of sport in Sambo and qualified for the Olympics in boxing. Nogueira was a world champion in BJJ at the brown belt level, a black belt in Judo and black belt in BJJ under De La Riva and trained extensively with the Cuban Olymlic Boxing team. They met in the middle and went head to head and skill for skill in a grueling tournament fight with a brutal, 10 minute first round that required endurance you don't see from most HWs today.

Both guys have a great understanding of distance. Both guys have a great jab, strong right hand, and solid body shot and shuffle through each with cleverly selected combos. Sergei's body shots sound like gunshots. Big Nog is light on his feet, slick with his punches and really sneaky and fast with his takedown entries. The way he moved before all of the damage and hip surgery was something to behold.

The intensity of the final minute of this fight and seemlessness and smoothness in the final scramble on the ground was on a higher level than anything you will see from most (if not all) HW fights in the UFC today. How is that the sport has evolved so much yet most of if not almost all of the top 10 HWs of today don't come close to demonstrating this kind technique, awareness and overall intensity of fighting? How has the HW division regressed so much?

The simple answer? Money.

in the old days, it was NOT about it.
It was pride, it was warriors testing themselves.

Now, it is all about (and only) about money.
So most big guys think about how much they can make in the UFC, and how much they can make in Boxing, Footbal, etc.
The choice is obvious.

Only a very few guys still have the drive and will to test themselves in MMA. Gane & Ngannou are two of those guys. But unfortunately, the rest rather get paid without having to fight publicly with their promotion.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

The simple answer? Money.

in the old days, it was NOT about it.
It was pride, it was warriors testing themselves.

Now, it is all about (and only) about money.
So most big guys think about how much they can make in the UFC, and how much they can make in Boxing, Footbal, etc.
The choice is obvious.

Only a very few guys still have the drive and will to test themselves in MMA. Gane & Ngannou are two of those guys. But unfortunately, the rest rather get paid without having to fight publicly with their promotion.

It doesn't help that the UFC is willing to let top guys go just to avoid paying them. Cejudo wants to fight Yan but left because they won't pay him. Jones wanted to fight Ngannou but left because they won't pay him. Ngannou wants more money but they wont pay him so now hes leaving. There are countless other examples.

In the mean time the LHW division has a 60 year old Glover as champion who took the belt from 40 year old journeyman Jan. Why? Because they fight for cheap. In the HW division we will get Lewis vs Tuivasa for the interim HW belt. Why? Because they fight for cheap.

UFC built their brand so well they know that the brand sells the fights more than the fighters do. It's not about having the best fighters its about having the fighters who they can slap the brand on for cheaper and thus the result is less talent.

Pride guys were paid. Wand talked about getting 300k cash bonuses. Yoshida would get millions to wear a tiny logo on his gi. Fedor was making 300k a fight in 2003 and this doesn't include sponsors. Mirko was getting the same and insane sponsor money and hence Pride had an incredible depth in talent.

 

[MartinGibson86]

Big Nog
Fedor
Crocop
Sergei
Alex
Josh
Werdum
Herring
Fujita
Hunto/Schilts or Coleman/Randleman

MMA evolution 18 years later, UFC is the best eva! New Breeds!

Ngannou
Stipe
Gane
DERRICK LEWIS
Blaydes
Volkov
Rozenstruik
Daukaus
Shamill
Tybura

The new breed smashes the Pride list lol.

Hunto should be higher on the Pride list.

Werdum is more "new breed" than "Pride fiighter"---he was 4-2 in Pride and 4 years into a 20 year career when he left.


Coleman, Randleman, and Fujita combine for zero wins against any current ufc hw's...Fujita almost lost to Shamrock ffs

 

[Jewish Lightning]

The new breed smashes the Pride list lol.

Hunto should be higher on the Pride list.

Werdum is more "new breed" than "Pride fiighter"---he was 4-2 in Pride and 4 years into a 20 year career when he left.


Coleman, Randleman, and Fujita combine for zero wins against any current ufc hw's...Fujita almost lost to Shamrock ffs

All the guys you claim would lose to the UFC guys of today would beat the brakes of Derrick Lewis with ease and he's a top 3 title contender in the UFC today. Keep exposing your recency bias, UFC fanboy.

 

[MartinGibson86]

All the guys you claim would lose to the UFC guys of today would beat the brakes of Derrick Lewis with ease and he's a top 3 title contender in the UFC today. Keep exposing your recency bias, UFC fanboy.

Nonsense.


Maybe actually warch mma. He used textbook bjj escapes to beat sub wiz Oleynic, he has an armbar win ffs.

Fedor has a shot and possibly Nog and Barnett. Hunto is trouble for anyone standing.


He ko's the rest including the green Werdum who fought in Pride.

 

[Iron Nick]

Man there's alot of bitching about the HW division lately.

Right?
It's a bit of joke what people expect from heavyweight, considering all things.
Pride paid better (afaik) and allowed PEDs... thus enabling (naturally) much smaller men to compete at heavyweight, increasing the talentpool to a vast extent.
The UFC doesn't pay well and there's USADA... hardly surprising that there aren't many guys like Gane and Ngannou.
But also, nostalgia clouds the judgement of some people a bit. Guys like Big Nog and Wanderlei had bangers of fights, but if you look at some aspects of their game from a technical standpoint, they were quite rudimentary too. (Which is only natural; MMA was young af back then...)

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

It's a good fight, but TBH the stand up looks pretty slow, not a whole lot of switching stances or faints or leg kicks like you see today.

What division are you talking about? It doesn't sound like HW.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

Guys like Big Nog and Wanderlei had bangers of fights, but if you look at some aspects of their game from a technical standpoint, they were quite rudimentary too. (Which is only natural; MMA was young af back then...)

Prime Big Nog was more skilled, more technical and more well rounded than 90% of the HWs in the UFC today. Watching Big Nog in those days and observing he was on a higher level than guys like Lewis, Tuivasa, Volkov, Tybura, Sakai and Arlovski of today has nothing to do with nostalgia, it's pure observation. It's like watching a BMW M5 driving next to a Ford F 150.

Same can be said about Wand who in those days was far superior than guys like Anthony Smith, Jan Blachowizcse, and 60 year old Glover. It's not nostalgia it's just observation.

For whatever reasons UFC talent is extremely poor at HW and LHW which is why you have highly ranked journeymen and one dimensional brawlers like Derrick Lewis as top 3 title contenders.

Also you speak of USADA as if UFC fighters today aren't using steroids. Jones was caught by USADA twice. Adesanya has man boob which he claims he got from smoking weed but we all know that's cap. Paulo Costa looks as juicy as a prime Mark Coleman and so fourth. Accusing pride guys of juicing while pretending the UFC guys are clean seems biased to me.