No Limit Hold 'Em Poker Discussion

[LEWIS540]

Seat 4 raises with 99.
Seat 7 re raises with AK.
BB 4 bets with KK.

Litterally millions of examples.

 

[LEWIS540]

AA seat 4 raise.
AK seat 6 re raise.
10 10 BB reraise.



lol at 10 10 ever raising there. Clear fold. Same for AK.

<45>

 

[MikeMcMann]

AA V 99 on a 822 board. 99 insta fold.
AA V AQ on a Q77 board. AQ insta fold.
AA V AK 4 bet all in pre. AK insta fold.
AA 4 bet pre. Every marginal hand insta fold.

Yes, easy fold pre with anything less than QQ.

I am confused by this. I said AA rarely wins a BIG pot, they tend to win SMALL pots or LOSE big pots.

In all your examples you are saying AA wins a small pot. Okay. However if the person who calls AA in any of your situations called with a pair that hit a set, they rape AA.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Seat 4 raises with 99.
Seat 7 re raises with AK.
BB 4 bets with KK.

Litterally millions of examples.

AA seat 4 raise.
AK seat 6 re raise.
10 10 BB reraise.



lol at 10 10 ever raising there. Clear fold. Same for AK.

<45>

If your point is AA can get the preflop money and make everyone fold post flop if they don't hit big, which is what I think you are saying, that is my point too. We are not in disagreement at all.

AA wins a small pot in all those instances but can be stacked if they run into someone who flopped a set or straight against them and lose a massive pot.

 

[Ken Fresno]

lol

The idea that AA only ever wins a small pot.......lol.

lol

*barely better odds than an under pair.

Well give your own example of how you win a big pot with AA?

Create a hand from scratch and give me my two cards and walk me through how you extract a big hand from me with AA.

I am genuinely curious and not meaning it any other way. I do want to see it.

I can’t remember who it was but I once heard a wizard like Galfond or Haxton say that a professional poker player’s entire yearly earnings can be defined by the results of hands where they got AA all-in preflop.

Like if u can play through the millions of other situations and break even, your net for the year will be the amount u win when all-in preflop with aces.

I can’t remember exactly how they said it cuz it was during commentary of a cash game, but it was something to that effect.

The only reason u would only win small pots with aces is if u play with little to no imagination. And everyone knows u have aces when u have them. Otherwise, like @LEWIS540 said, countless ways to collect.

 

[Ken Fresno]

No you have it wrong for the Jason/Doyle game.

I agree that the pre-flop action is correct.

Flop hits with 12K in the pot.
Jason (KK - big blind acts first) - bets $15K
Doyle - re-raises to $30K total
Jason calls the extra 15K.

The tell here is the size of Jason's bet (overbets the pot). It was too much. I understand the bet though because Jason is protecting his Kings from a flush draw. It's the old adage "you must pay to see the next card". Anyone who calls or re-raises has a monster (or an insane bluffer or is reading you on a bluff). Unfortunately for Jason he ran into a set. Doyle min re-raises and Jason knows he is in trouble. This is the pivotal moment where he could have let go of the hand but he's calling 15K for a 57K pot. If you are willing to let go of pocket Kings with those odds you can either see through cards and you may as well never play poker again. That's a tough lay down there and I can't see myself ever doing that unless I am in a tourney.

Turn hits with a $72K pot.
Jason goes all in with $66K.
Doyle calls and it's game over...

I can't blame Jason for his all-in move really. It's a typical move by a lot of players who refuse to give up on top pocket pairs. He's hoping his opponent is on the draw and goes all-in to prevent a miracle card. We've all been there and seen it. You have top pair or even a set with a dangerous board and bet out to prevent any people from drawing cheaply.

The only other outcome is that instead of going all-in Jason checks and let's Doyle bet. It really doesn't matter what Doyle does because I don't see Jason (or myself and many others) fold unless Doyle goes all in. If Doyle bets 1/3 of the pot ($20K) any of us will call then bet or call on the river with the remaining $46K. if he bets half of the pot ($30K) then maaaybe someone is daring enough to fold... I can see myself folding at this point depending on who the player is. But what you have left is basically a little less than pot size so I don't see anyone really folding here (at least I am not).

This is a hand tailored made to lose lots of money. The critical moment is calling the extra 15K on the flop. Calling that more less seals the deal given the remaining stack that Jason has. As I stated in another post if Jason had 100K+ instead of just 66K then I can see him folding on the turn or river cause he won't go all-in and checks to Doyle.

Ya I may have reversed the action. I think in my head I just wanted the 2 hands to be different so we weren’t talking about 2 identical unavoidable coolers.

But in general I don’t bet the flop with overpairs on those flops. If I do, that’s me mixing it up, not the standard play. Jut not a fan of getting in 250 BB w one pair against serious players. Can’t possibly win in the long run.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I can’t remember who it was but I once heard a wizard like Galfond or Haxton say that a professional poker player’s entire yearly earnings can be defined by the results of hands where they got AA all-in preflop.

Like if u can play through the millions of other situations and break even, your net for the year will be the amount u win when all-in preflop with aces.

I can’t remember exactly how they said it cuz it was during commentary of a cash game, but it was something to that effect.

The only reason u would only win small pots with aces is if u play with little to no imagination. And everyone knows u have aces when u have them. Otherwise, like @LEWIS540 said, countless ways to collect.

I would love to see example hands of how you can regularly play and win big All in pots with AA against other good players. It should not be hard to lay out at all.

I can lay out many reasonable hands how AA costs you your entire stack.

But I don't disagree with that sentiment. IF you can AA all in preflop that is gold. But all in preflop with AA and getting called is rare.

 

[Ken Fresno]

I would love to see example hands of how you can regularly play and win big All in pots with AA against other good players. It should not be hard to lay out at all.

I can lay out many reasonable hands how AA costs you your entire stack.

But I don't disagree with that sentiment. IF you can AA all in preflop that is gold. But all in preflop with AA and getting called is rare.

It refers to the times that u have AA and the opponent has KK, QQ, AK, or goes crazy.

If ur raising often enough preflop people should be getting it in for around 100 BBs or less when they have those hands fairly often.

Last time I played(at the wsop) I was playing 2-5 at the Aria. Coincidentally Brad Garrett was to my left. But me and the player to his left got in 800 each pre when I had Aces and the guy had Kings.

I flatted the button against the action player’s raise in mid position. Figured I’d trap him or the young aggressive guy if he tries to squeeze from the big. Already did it with QQ earlier and blew them both out with a big 4 bet after the action player called his squeeze.

This time the kid actually had KK. So he KNEW he had me. He didn’t.

 

[vanillaisis]

I remember one time I had like $250 on Bovada and I put my roll on the line knowing the risks. Few hands in at 1/2 and I get AK. The pot gets 3 bet and a smooth call from Villain. Flop comes AK4. Pretty good right?! Villain bets I call. Turn card comes a K. Villain bets again I shove all-in and he insta-calls. AA vs AK on a AKK board. My whole roll, gone.

I made another 200 deposit on Bovada and ran it up to 3k but I'm still reeling from that AK hand.

 

[vanillaisis]

I would love to see example hands of how you can regularly play and win big All in pots with AA against other good players. It should not be hard to lay out at all.

I can lay out many reasonable hands how AA costs you your entire stack.

But I don't disagree with that sentiment. IF you can AA all in preflop that is gold. But all in preflop with AA and getting called is rare.

3-bet to 7-8 BB's (or more depending if you'll get called) and jam all flops. Easiest way to let AA do it's thing on it's own. It'll be rare for V to out-flop you. You're basically getting it in good 90% of time by jamming flops and most V's will call because you committed them pre and now they feel outraged. If they fold you still get a few BB's off of them. Your aces will get you a return on your investment most of the time.
As long as the flop doesn't come JQK you'll be good.

 

[LEWIS540]

I am confused by this. I said AA rarely wins a BIG pot, they tend to win SMALL pots or LOSE big pots.

In all your examples you are saying AA wins a small pot. Okay. However if the person who calls AA in any of your situations called with a pair that hit a set, they rape AA.

I was being sarcastic, obviously.

AA will win big pots in all those examples and millions of others.

If you play games where people fold everything but the top 1% hands on the flop, good for you, but it is not normal.

You seem to think everyone folds in every single case against AA unless they have them beat, in which case they always double up. Poker for dummies.

If your point is AA can get the preflop money and make everyone fold post flop if they don't hit big, which is what I think you are saying, that is my point too. We are not in disagreement at all.

AA wins a small pot in all those instances but can be stacked if they run into someone who flopped a set or straight against them and lose a massive pot.

Case in point. Both 10 10 and AK can easily call or (more likely) raise in this spot.

 

[MikeMcMann]

It refers to the times that u have AA and the opponent has KK, QQ, AK, or goes crazy.

If ur raising often enough preflop people should be getting it in for around 100 BBs or less when they have those hands fairly often.

Last time I played(at the wsop) I was playing 2-5 at the Aria. Coincidentally Brad Garrett was to my left. But me and the player to his left got in 800 each pre when I had Aces and the guy had Kings.

I flatted the button against the action player’s raise in mid position. Figured I’d trap him or the young aggressive guy if he tries to squeeze from the big. Already did it with QQ earlier and blew them both out with a big 4 bet after the action player called his squeeze.

This time the kid actually had KK. So he KNEW he had me. He didn’t.

OK 'Coolers'.

Ya I agree. If you get caught in a 'cooler' situation, no matter what two cards you hold, you are gong to lose a lot of money.

Not what I am talking about as that is not a function of the 'any two big starting cards' but rather that it's a cooler.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I was being sarcastic, obviously.

AA will win big pots in all those examples and millions of others.

If you play games where people fold everything but the top 1% hands on the flop, good for you, but it is not normal.

You seem to think everyone folds in every single case against AA unless they have them beat, in which case they always double up. Poker for dummies.



Case in point. Both 10 10 and AK can easily call or (more likely) raise in this spot.

What I am saying is that if you bet, 3 bet big pairs properly the opponent, if good, is almost always going to put you on a range of AA, KK, QQ or maybe AK suited. Unless the player mixes in raising just as big often with other holdings he shows to the board purposely to let them know he plays other cards that way.

Big pairs bet preflop are the most typically KNOWN hands by the guy chasing.

The guys calling them heads up with hands like 7/8 suited KNOW that and that is why they are calling.

And I guess this is just where we agree to disagree on most of what you think after that. I am not saying 'every single hands folds in every case' so lets try and stick to what each other are actually arguing and not do the typical sherdog thing of making up points for the other guy and then arguing those strawman. I do believe 'most times' against a good player it will be obvious.

So that is why I am asking you to give us a hand to analyze (just make something up, it only takes a minute) which for some reason you are resisting. So here is what I will ask you.

Do you think Mike Matusow played the AA correct here in this video I posted upthread?



And if yes, would you NOT put MIke M on the range of holding cards like AA, KK, QQ? The commentators on the video all say the opponent would know. I would put him on that range. So the only question is would you?

I would say Mike played that very well pre flop and in doing so his range became quite obvious and if you polled all the good players at the table they would all say the same range. Every one of them.

It is an easy question that should not take you long to answer so hopefully you do.

And then same for this hand



Same exact questions.


-----------


I'll put those two questions to everyone commenting in this thread. How many of you would NOT put the AA or KK hands in those videos on that 'BIG HAND RANGE' when you call him preflop? How many of you would be basically blind to his holdings?

 

[MikeMcMann]

3-bet to 7-8 BB's (or more depending if you'll get called) and jam all flops. Easiest way to let AA do it's thing on it's own. It'll be rare for V to out-flop you. You're basically getting it in good 90% of time by jamming flops and most V's will call because you committed them pre and now they feel outraged. If they fold you still get a few BB's off of them. Your aces will get you a return on your investment most of the time.
As long as the flop doesn't come JQK you'll be good.

There is no GOOD player who will call that range of hands pre flop (AA, KK, QQ) such that they commit themselves to calling on the flop to any jam because they are already pot committed.

The entire point of calling that range pre flop when you DO NOT actually have the correct pot odds to call with your holdings is based on what is called IMPLIED ODDS. That means that you have already calculated that the pre flop raiser with the big cards is deep enough and you are too, that you can get paid in a way that after the fact justifies the odds and call.

That means you would NEVER see the AA simply shove and feel you HAVE to call by putting in many times more chips then you did preflop.


BUt I do agree that if you are playing a guy who is not very good and you have that big range Hand and you see a guy call your big bet preflop and you notice he is basically pot committed himself then your only move post flop should be to shove no matter how good or bad the flop looks. He does not have enough chips to make you fold, and he should never fold to your shove. So ya you get paid if your cards hold up.


But back that up. IF this guy CALLING is pot committing himself to any shove on the flop, he has made another clear error. He should have just re-raised all in preflop and hoped to get the fold. They are both auto-allin on the flop anyway so might as well try to get the preflop fold if you are going to call like that.


----------


So with this we have 'Coolers' get called and paid. ...Yes they do.

Bad players will call and pay. ...Yes they will.


What i am asking for is an example where GOOD players will call and lose a massive pot. One where they are calling big bets pre flop with the proper implied odds because both players have big stacks behind them to give great implied odds???

 

[LEWIS540]

What I am saying is that if you bet, 3 bet big pairs properly the opponent, if good, is almost always going to put you on a range of AA, KK, QQ or maybe AK suited. Unless the player mixes in raising just as big often with other holdings he shows to the board purposely to let them know he plays other cards that way.

Big pairs bet preflop are the most typically KNOWN hands by the guy chasing.

The guys calling them heads up with hands like 7/8 suited KNOW that and that is why they are calling.

And I guess this is just where we agree to disagree on most of what you think after that. I am not saying 'every single hands folds in every case' so lets try and stick to what each other are actually arguing and not do the typical sherdog thing of making up points for the other guy and then arguing those strawman. I do believe 'most times' against a good player it will be obvious.

So that is why I am asking you to give us a hand to analyze (just make something up, it only takes a minute) which for some reason you are resisting. So here is what I will ask you.

Do you think Mike Matusow played the AA correct here in this video I posted upthread?



And if yes, would you NOT put MIke M on the range of holding cards like AA, KK, QQ? The commentators on the video all say the opponent would know. I would put him on that range. So the only question is would you?

I would say Mike played that very well pre flop and in doing so his range became quite obvious and if you polled all the good players at the table they would all say the same range. Every one of them.

It is an easy question that should not take you long to answer so hopefully you do.

And then same for this hand



Same exact questions.


-----------


I'll put those two questions to everyone commenting in this thread. How many of you would NOT put the AA or KK hands in those videos on that 'BIG HAND RANGE' when you call him preflop? How many of you would be basically blind to his holdings?

Wow you posted a few videos of big pairs getting cracked in big pots. Yes it happens. Matusow played it poorly, but at the same time sometimes you're going to go broke regardless.

Equally, AA wins medium-big pots far more often.

Your whole poker mind set seems to be of the tightest nit who has ever played the game.

"If he 4 bets pre he must have minimum QQ."
"If it comes Q72 it's a snap fold with AQ to a flop raise or check raise."
"If you don't flop a set with 99 insta fold to any flop bet."
"No one ever 4 bets pre with AQ or AJ suited or 88 or KQ suited......literally never happens"



The conversation has gone on too long. We can end it now. Sorry, you're just wrong. If you don't like getting AA and KK, just fold them in future.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Wow you posted a few videos of big pairs getting cracked in big pots. Yes it happens. Matusow played it poorly, but at the same time sometimes you're going to go broke regardless.

Equally, AA wins medium-big pots far more often.

Your whole poker mind set seems to be of the tightest nit who has ever played the game.

"If he 4 bets pre he must have minimum QQ."
"If it comes Q72 it's a snap fold with AQ to a flop raise or check raise."
"If you don't flop a set with 99 insta fold to any flop bet."
"No one ever 4 bets pre with AQ or AJ suited or 88 or KQ suited......literally never happens"



The conversation has gone on too long. We can end it now. Sorry, you're just wrong. If you don't like getting AA and KK, just fold them in future.

You are entirely missing the point and still avoiding doing my singular request for some strange reason.


The point of posting those two videos again is that is any normal scenario with AA or KK pre flop.

Those guys do not DO NOT do anything out of the ordinary and play those pairs well and in so doing the other players KNOW easily the range of their hands.

Forget the outcomes after. Forget that they get cracked. FOCUS ON THIS and ANSWER THIS QUESTION:

In either of those two hands where you have those holdings what WOULD you do DIFFERENTLY that would not tell the good players the range you held?

Will you answer that?

 

[LEWIS540]

One hand from yesterday:

1/2. Everyone at least 300 deep.
Seat 3 straddles.
Seat 4 limps.
I'm in seat 5 and raise to 13 with 99.
Get a couple of callers.
Seat 4 re-pops to 70.
I tank fold.
Button calls.

Flop A39. All the money goes in. Seat 4 has AK. Button AQ.



Another one: I have 22 on a 238 (2 diamonds) board. Turn 3. River 3. With me betting and being called on flop and turn. I tank called an all in at the river (even had a clock called on me). Guy shows A4 diamonds. Stands up and berates me for slow rolling him.

 

[LEWIS540]

You are entirely missing the point and still avoiding doing my singular request for some strange reason.


The point of posting those two videos again is that is any normal scenario with AA or KK pre flop.

Those guys do not DO NOT do anything out of the ordinary and play those pairs well and in so doing the other players KNOW easily the range of their hands.

Forget the outcomes after. Forget that they get cracked. FOCUS ON THIS and ANSWER THIS QUESTION:

In either of those two hands where you have those holdings what WOULD you do DIFFERENTLY that would not tell the good players the range you held?

Will you answer that?

Normal scenario with AA. lol. Yes it is normal that your opponent flops perfect.

I would not have played it like Matusow for sure! Might have still gone bust, but most people will know that is not a great flop for AA.

No one is saying AA doesn't lose big pots sometimes. You can post a 1000 instances of AA losing. I can post 1000 instances of AA winning. Means jack shit.

You take a million random samples of AA v a preflop call..........AA will be making a shit ton of money over the sample.




Again, you are wrong.......but if you believe what you are saying fold AA and KK in future because they literally never win big pots.

Don't respond with the same nonsense again please. It's boring and I feel stupider for reading it.

 

[SamSchmidt]

Went and canned it up at the casino last weekend.

My strategy of only playing the flop fucked me over this time. Bled out. Two good rivers could have netted me a chunk. Ohwell next time.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Normal scenario with AA. lol. Yes it is normal that your opponent flops perfect.

I would not have played it like Matusow for sure! Might have still gone bust, but most people will know that is not a great flop for AA.

No one is saying AA doesn't lose big pots sometimes. You can post a 1000 instances of AA losing. I can post 1000 instances of AA winning. Means jack shit.

You take a million random samples of AA v a preflop call..........AA will be making a shit ton of money over the sample.




Again, you are wrong.......but if you believe what you are saying fold AA and KK in future because they literally never win big pots.

Don't respond with the same nonsense again please. It's boring and I feel stupider for reading it.

Well its obvious you won't answer anything.

I used to a post on an excellent poker chat site and the rule was "Analysis" not "Statements" and you be kicked out of any thread if you refused to give stuff to analyze and instead just kept repeating 'you're wrong' or 'i'm right' without posting anything to compare or discuss. You just devolve into shitfest statements.

Again I am not talking about what a person HITS on the flop or after. You can pretend both those hands held up and the guys calling both missed and it changes NOTHING.

The point you refuse to address even when I ask it 10 times is ' WOULD YOU PLAY THOSE HANDS DIFFERENT PREFLOP IN A WAY THAT WOULD NOT TELL A GOOD PLAYER YOU HAD THAT BIG HAND RANGE, AND IF SO TELL US WHAT YOU WOULD DO DIFFERENT?'

But i give up as I can tell you will never try to answer that as you do not like the answer you would have to give.

Two guys above did provide analysis and the first i was able to counter and show he was giving an example of COOLERS and why that does not count. The other offered an example of someone playing bad and pot committing himself pre flop by calling the big hand preflop with the wrong pot odds.

So no one yet has offered up an example for analysis that holds up despite the fact it is so easy to walk thru a hand in a few minutes. Telling.

Anyway I will move on to others who don't just want to make statements and are into poker analysis and debate.