No Limit Hold 'Em Poker Discussion

[punkmother]

i just watched a youtube video with mike matusow playing the role of walmart shopper using a scooter to move about a casino. he ended up sharting during play and had to take a break and head back to the room. i'd expect that to be the norm for most poker 'pros,' just upjumped walmart shoppers.

 

[LEWIS540]

Well done. That's a tidy sum!

Aye. The more you play the more you realise the difference between a winning session and a losing session is running well. Won a tidy sum on Saturday by cracking AA twice pre. Previous week lost 800 by running like ass.

I remember 20 years ago people would say in the long run poker was 80% skill and 20% luck..............outside of the very top level I think it's closer to 50/50 these days.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Playing tonight. Busted AA twice per for 100 bb.



AK suited and QQ.

When in tourneys and I look down and see AA, my heart shrinks a little. If I play them right and win its likely to not be a very big pot. When I get cracked I lose a very big pot, most times.

I would rather play suited connected where i rarely lose a big pot but when I hit big, and they are disguised I reck people.

Aye. The more you play the more you realise the difference between a winning session and a losing session is running well. Won a tidy sum on Saturday by cracking AA twice pre. Previous week lost 800 by running like ass.

I remember 20 years ago people would say in the long run poker was 80% skill and 20% luck..............outside of the very top level I think it's closer to 50/50 these days.

60 skill and 40 luck imo. 20% is too low. .

Cards do play a big part and when you run good you will win big, when you run bad you will lose.

the difference imo between a good and bad player is how they manage their stacks in between those runs. Do you run good and give it all back on shit play before you actually start actually running bad? Or can you preserve chips with good play until the next good run?

 

[LEWIS540]

When in tourneys and I look down and see AA, my heart shrinks a little. If I play them right and win its likely to not be a very big pot. When I get cracked I lose a very big pot, most times.

I would rather play suited connected where i rarely lose a big pot but when I hit big, and they are disguised I reck people.



60 skill and 40 luck imo. 20% is too low. .

Cards do play a big part and when you run good you will win big, when you run bad you will lose.

the difference imo between a good and bad player is how they manage their stacks in between those runs. Do you run good and give it all back on shit play before you actually start actually running bad? Or can you preserve chips with good play until the next good run?

Honestly, when in comes to holdem, I think 75% of people who play regularly are all pretty similar in skill level basically. I think most people think they are better than they are.

The margins are really fine.

The single biggest skill is knowing when to get away from big but second best hands, imo. Think most people, myself included, tend to pay off big bets in these cases and shrug their shoulders and convince themselves it was a cold deck.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Honestly, when in comes to holdem, I think 75% of people who play regularly are all pretty similar in skill level basically. I think most people think they are better than they are.

The margins are really fine.

The single biggest skill is knowing when to get away from big but second best hands, imo. Think most people, myself included, tend to pay off big bets in these cases and shrug their shoulders and convince themselves it was a cold deck.

depends where you play.

During the heyday of poker after the MoneyMaker effect the amount of true fish in the game was huge. Guys who had no concept of game theory, pot odds, or anything strategic in their play. You could go to XYZ Casino in butt f*ck no where and get a game that you could milk if you were a decent player.

Nowadays outside Vegas or other big tourist destination casinos the game is mostly left to guys with a decent level of knowledge and trying to grind out a living. Tough games to get an edge even if you are better.

But Vegas being Vegas you can still find games with tons of fish. Guys who only play poker once or twice a year when in venues like Vegas and who have zero skill in the game.

While I agree that getting away from hands is an important skill and edge and if you can avoid those massive losing hands you gain an edge, many times you just have to pay people off if the hand is a true cooler. You will lose more, long term seeing monsters and folding great hands than you will calling with them when fearing a monster and finding out he was bluffing or you had him beat.

For me the biggest skill or edge is stack management generally. your 'big hands' is a part, but the bigger part, imo is just the basic hand to hand normal play. You see guys win a big pot and stack up with chips and then splash chips into way too many pots chasing another big win. They call preflop and flop way to loose chasing, thinking it's not a lot of chips and it's not, but it wears down your stacks over long sessions.

To me the key is to get your big hand win and stack up and then preserve, preserve, preserve and use proper pots odds until you get the chance to stack up again. you see so many guys roller coaster their stacks. Up and down and up and down because they cannot preserve in the interim.

 

[LEWIS540]

depends where you play.

During the heyday of poker after the MoneyMaker effect the amount of true fish in the game was huge. Guys who had no concept of game theory, pot odds, or anything strategic in their play. You could go to XYZ Casino in butt f*ck no where and get a game that you could milk if you were a decent player.

Nowadays outside Vegas or other big tourist destination casinos the game is mostly left to guys with a decent level of knowledge and trying to grind out a living. Tough games to get an edge even if you are better.

But Vegas being Vegas you can still find games with tons of fish. Guys who only play poker once or twice a year when in venues like Vegas and who have zero skill in the game.

While I agree that getting away from hands is an important skill and edge and if you can avoid those massive losing hands you gain an edge, many times you just have to pay people off if the hand is a true cooler. You will lose more, long term seeing monsters and folding great hands than you will calling with them when fearing a monster and finding out he was bluffing or you had him beat.

For me the biggest skill or edge is stack management generally. your 'big hands' is a part, but the bigger part, imo is just the basic hand to hand normal play. You see guys win a big pot and stack up with chips and then splash chimps into way too many pots chasing another big win. They call preflop and flop way to loose chasing, thinking it's not a lot of chips and it's not, but it wears down your stacks over long sessions.

To me the key is to get your big hand win and stack up and then preserve, preserve, preserve and use proper pots odds until you get the chance to stack up again. you see so many guys roller coaster their stacks. Up and down and up and down because they cannot preserve in the interim.

Yeah, basically the same idea.

Game is about small margins and maximizing them.

 

[Fugazy]

depends where you play.

During the heyday of poker after the MoneyMaker effect the amount of true fish in the game was huge. Guys who had no concept of game theory, pot odds, or anything strategic in their play. You could go to XYZ Casino in butt f*ck no where and get a game that you could milk if you were a decent player.

Nowadays outside Vegas or other big tourist destination casinos the game is mostly left to guys with a decent level of knowledge and trying to grind out a living. Tough games to get an edge even if you are better.

But Vegas being Vegas you can still find games with tons of fish. Guys who only play poker once or twice a year when in venues like Vegas and who have zero skill in the game.

While I agree that getting away from hands is an important skill and edge and if you can avoid those massive losing hands you gain an edge, many times you just have to pay people off if the hand is a true cooler. You will lose more, long term seeing monsters and folding great hands than you will calling with them when fearing a monster and finding out he was bluffing or you had him beat.

For me the biggest skill or edge is stack management generally. your 'big hands' is a part, but the bigger part, imo is just the basic hand to hand normal play. You see guys win a big pot and stack up with chips and then splash chips into way too many pots chasing another big win. They call preflop and flop way to loose chasing, thinking it's not a lot of chips and it's not, but it wears down your stacks over long sessions.

To me the key is to get your big hand win and stack up and then preserve, preserve, preserve and use proper pots odds until you get the chance to stack up again. you see so many guys roller coaster their stacks. Up and down and up and down because they cannot preserve in the interim.

Yesterday I was watching the WSOP ME and one of the announcers quipped "No on actually plays GTO poker, they just think they do" or something very near that. Made me smile. I remeber when GTO came into play, and I could tell who was trying to use it. Where I play they tend to be earmarked by being overly aggressive and hyperactive preflop. They tend to be the ones on the rollercoaster. Going up and down, busting out 4 times in 4 hours and chipping halfway up the amount they lost in buy ins. Puffing out their chest when they are actually down.

It really is interesting how the game affects the behavior of it's participants. People who are otherwise strong and confident become nervous, others become douchebags who are never wrong and can't take criticisms or advice and so on.

I agree that most people aren't as good as they think they are. I'm just now fully comfortable at a table and I've been playing on and off for 12 years, a little more seriously for 2-3 years. I'm still learning, and I'm just now a profitable player. I still have a ways to go, I'm still reading and taking notes and watching as much as I can. In my experience, the biggest change was just being settled. To me, my cash play is one long game. It never ends. I remember to take breaks, stay hydrated stay focused and pick my spots where I see advantages. I used to try to force wayy too many hands to go my way, now I try to create opportunities for better spots and winnable pots. I try to shape the game to my liking and I'd much rather fold and play again than make the hero call. I've legit folded every hand for an hour and been fine with it.

I'm not at all a great player, I'm just content with my development to this point. I want to play for another 6months to a year and then start trying my hand and the small local tournaments.

Also I can't play house games for shit. I never play with friends which is funny because 10-12 years ago I'd play 1-2 games a week at someone's place or a bar. Now I hate it though. When my family invites me to play I usually offer to be the dealer.

 

[MikeMcMann]

@Fugazy, nice post.

Some poker player hate this statement by me but the last table I want to play poker at is one that contains all Fish who have no clue of game play. Many think that is a dream table but for the optimal table mix is a table of 8 players with about 2-3 being total fish, 3-4 being decent but low skill players and only 1 or 2 guys besides myself who really know the game.

Why not all Fish? You cannot manipulate a table with all fish. You cannot predict what they have pre flop, post flop or to the river. You cannot bluff them off anything. You are basically forced to wait for very premium hands and hope they hold up to showdown at the River. You are playing Best-card- river-poker and I don't like that. Against a player who knows the game but is not great, you can read their openings, flop play etc. You can bluff them or trap them.

 

[Fugazy]

@Fugazy, nice post.

Some poker player hate this statement by me but the last table I want to play poker at is one that contains all Fish who have no clue of game play. Many think that is a dream table but for the optimal table mix is a table of 8 players with about 2-3 being total fish, 3-4 being decent but low skill players and only 1 or 2 guys besides myself who really know the game.

Why not all Fish? You cannot manipulate a table with all fish. You cannot predict what they have pre flop, post flop or to the river. You cannot bluff them off anything. You are basically forced to wait for very premium hands and hope they hold up to showdown at the River. You are playing Best-card- river-poker and I don't like that. Against a player who knows the game but is not great, you can read their openings, flop play etc. You can bluff them or trap them.

I agree 100%. When I see a player that I know is good or even particularly sticky I will avoid them until I feel really good about the read I have, or some other clear advantage. Sometimes I won't defend my blinds if I'm not ready to mix it up.

I love playing with guys who I know are okay players but they chase flushes and straights.

As for the fishes, that's why I can't play with family. When they are all drunk and messing around I can't turn off my drive to play "correctly" and try to win.

 

[Foppa21]

Yesterday I was watching the WSOP ME and one of the announcers quipped "No on actually plays GTO poker, they just think they do" or something very near that. Made me smile. I remeber when GTO came into play, and I could tell who was trying to use it. Where I play they tend to be earmarked by being overly aggressive and hyperactive preflop. They tend to be the ones on the rollercoaster. Going up and down, busting out 4 times in 4 hours and chipping halfway up the amount they lost in buy ins. Puffing out their chest when they are actually down.

It really is interesting how the game affects the behavior of it's participants. People who are otherwise strong and confident become nervous, others become douchebags who are never wrong and can't take criticisms or advice and so on.

I agree that most people aren't as good as they think they are. I'm just now fully comfortable at a table and I've been playing on and off for 12 years, a little more seriously for 2-3 years. I'm still learning, and I'm just now a profitable player. I still have a ways to go, I'm still reading and taking notes and watching as much as I can. In my experience, the biggest change was just being settled. To me, my cash play is one long game. It never ends. I remember to take breaks, stay hydrated stay focused and pick my spots where I see advantages. I used to try to force wayy too many hands to go my way, now I try to create opportunities for better spots and winnable pots. I try to shape the game to my liking and I'd much rather fold and play again than make the hero call. I've legit folded every hand for an hour and been fine with it.

I'm not at all a great player, I'm just content with my development to this point. I want to play for another 6months to a year and then start trying my hand and the small local tournaments.

Also I can't play house games for shit. I never play with friends which is funny because 10-12 years ago I'd play 1-2 games a week at someone's place or a bar. Now I hate it though. When my family invites me to play I usually offer to be the dealer.

Daft question/brain fade... What's GTO?

 

[Fugazy]

Daft question/brain fade... What's GTO?

Game Theory Optimum

It's intended to be an un-exploitable system of playing. It's based on percentages of hands given position, other stuff. Most people just become aggressive and repetitive when using it. If you were a computer it would work, but of course none of us are.

That isn't to say there aren't some good tidbits to come from it. I've learned a bit about when to be a little more aggressive, attacking blinds more often.

I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject, I'll just say I'm not too impressed. Once GTO dropped, 30 variations of it dropped and now counter-theories are popping up. To me it's a just a different perspective on the game. I don't think you can devise a "formula" to "beat" a game where random chance is a factor as well as the human element of 8 or 9 other players at a table.

All that said, hop on youtube or go to a local library and check out a book on the subject, it may be useful to you.

 

[Foppa21]

Game Theory Optimum

It's intended to be an un-exploitable system of playing. It's based on percentages of hands given position, other stuff. Most people just become aggressive and repetitive when using it. If you were a computer it would work, but of course none of us are.

That isn't to say there aren't some good tidbits to come from it. I've learned a bit about when to be a little more aggressive, attacking blinds more often.

I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject, I'll just say I'm not too impressed. Once GTO dropped, 30 variations of it dropped and now counter-theories are popping up. To me it's a just a different perspective on the game. I don't think you can devise a "formula" to "beat" a game where random chance is a factor as well as the human element of 8 or 9 other players at a table.

All that said, hop on youtube or go to a local library and check out a book on the subject, it may be useful to you.

Righto. IMO that's more driven towards cash games where the levels etc don't change. IE slightly less variables. Cash games, unless there's a tell or a absolute donk, IMO, you play the numbers (pot odds etc, effectively GTO) you'll come out ahead in the long run.

If it's repeatitive, it's exploitable (imo, without going specifics). I'll have to read up more though.

Agreed that it's a different perspective on the game

 

[Fugazy]

Anyone here have a favorite seat, not considering moving about other players of course?

I love seat 1. Just next to the dealer.

 

[Foppa21]

@Fugazy, nice post.

Some poker player hate this statement by me but the last table I want to play poker at is one that contains all Fish who have no clue of game play. Many think that is a dream table but for the optimal table mix is a table of 8 players with about 2-3 being total fish, 3-4 being decent but low skill players and only 1 or 2 guys besides myself who really know the game.

Why not all Fish? You cannot manipulate a table with all fish. You cannot predict what they have pre flop, post flop or to the river. You cannot bluff them off anything. You are basically forced to wait for very premium hands and hope they hold up to showdown at the River. You are playing Best-card- river-poker and I don't like that. Against a player who knows the game but is not great, you can read their openings, flop play etc. You can bluff them or trap them.

You can't bluff a calling station.

 

[LEWIS540]

Odd session yesterday.

2/2. Bought in for 250. Lost 2 bullets in the first 8 hands. kk<a5 on a q55 board. kk<ak all in pre. 3rd bullet went 250>700>150>750>300>850>0.

Was one guy on the table who you sometimes get. Basically blind raises to 50 every hand, and is calling all ins with anything (literally, amongst others, 72 and 69). He was literally doubling everyone up and then reloading every 10 minutes.......except every time I was in a pot with him, I lost. The two worst were qq<54 on a j52 board (I called his huge all in flop bet) and close to a 2000 pot my ak<84 on k862 board. He called my all in check raise on turn!!!!!!!

Ended up moving tables and going on a huge rush* and actually ended up +300 for the day, but what could have been. Should have been looking at a +3000 night.




*2nd hand of the table I get k10 on the button get called 2 ways. k78 10 7. I bet flop, turn and river all in (was a bit tilted) and get called by both guys all 3 times. Obviously felt chances of winning were slim at that point, but they both mucked. Both claimed AK, but I felt that seemed very unlikely. Nice 800 pot, all the same.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Odd session yesterday.

2/2. Bought in for 250. Lost 2 bullets in the first 8 hands. kk<a5 on a q55 board. kk<ak all in pre. 3rd bullet went 250>700>150>750>300>850>0.

Was one guy on the table who you sometimes get. Basically blind raises to 50 every hand, and is calling all ins with anything (literally, amongst others, 72 and 69). He was literally doubling everyone up and then reloading every 10 minutes.......except every time I was in a pot with him, I lost. The two worst were qq<54 on a j52 board (I called his huge all in flop bet) and close to a 2000 pot my ak<84 on k862 board. He called my all in check raise on turn!!!!!!!

Ended up moving tables and going on a huge rush* and actually ended up +300 for the day, but what could have been. Should have been looking at a +3000 night.




*2nd hand of the table I get k10 on the button get called 2 ways. k78 10 7. I bet flop, turn and river all in (was a bit tilted) and get called by both guys all 3 times. Obviously felt chances of winning were slim at that point, but they both mucked. Both claimed AK, but I felt that seemed very unlikely. Nice 800 pot, all the same.

People think I am strange when I say it but I am not a happy camper when I look down and see a big pair in my hand. Particularly early in tournaments.

Typically I know if I play it right I will either win a small pot or lose a really big one.

You raise it up properly and announce to the table, I have a big hand and some guy calls you thinking I either hit the flop big and rape him or fold. I am often that guy who does that, not based on the pot odds, I know I do not have but based on the implied odds, and stack depth and knowing this player is not the type to ever fold a big pair and will make the hero call when I shove on him.

Flops like that Q55 are the perfect type of 'rape the big pair hand'. I would call, based on the above with any suited connectors including 5/6 suited if I am deep and they are deep knowing it can be a massive payday if i hit.

In cash games you can argue the number of hands you call pre flop and then fold when you miss the flop with things like 5/6 suited makes it unprofitable over the long run. And there is truth to that. But I take a different view.

In tournaments particularly but also in cash, your ability to win the tourney (or dominate the table in cash), can be very heavily impacted by winning a single really big pot. It makes all your play aand hands stronger after, so that is value you have to consider as well. Folding 'chasing cards' to a bad flop may cost you some chips but as long as they don't change the way you have to play IN THAT SPECIFIC GAME, I am not as fussed by it.

 

[LEWIS540]

People think I am strange when I say it but I am not a happy camper when I look down and see a big pair in my hand. Particularly early in tournaments.

Typically I know if I play it right I will either win a small pot or lose a really big one.

You raise it up properly and announce to the table, I have a big hand and some guy calls you thinking I either hit the flop big and rape him or fold. I am often that guy who does that, not based on the pot odds, I know I do not have but based on the implied odds, and stack depth and knowing this player is not the type to ever fold a big pair and will make the hero call when I shove on him.

Flops like that Q55 are the perfect type of 'rape the big pair hand'. I would call, based on the above with any suited connectors including 5/6 suited if I am deep and they are deep knowing it can be a massive payday if i hit.

In cash games you can argue the number of hands you call pre flop and then fold when you miss the flop with things like 5/6 suited makes it unprofitable over the long run. And there is truth to that. But I take a different view.

In tournaments particularly but also in cash, your ability to win the tourney (or dominate the table in cash), can be very heavily impacted by winning a single really big pot. It makes all your play aand hands stronger after, so that is value you have to consider as well. Folding 'chasing cards' to a bad flop may cost you some chips but as long as they don't change the way you have to play IN THAT SPECIFIC GAME, I am not as fussed by it.

There is a certain truth to this, but at the same time you always want the big pairs, obviously. You want the AA v 99 on the 774 boards, or the KK v AQ on the Q73 board. They are a lot easier to play when short stacked or deep stacked. Somewhere round the 100 bb range can make it somewhat awkward.

My KK<A5 was I 4 bet pre in a straddled pot, 1/2/4>14>35. Straddler called. Everyone else folded. Flop he check raised my 40 bet to 90. So with around 175 back I only really have 2 options. I tank called, but contemplated the fold. It was literally my very fist hand.

I got KK four times yesterday and lost with them every time, so maybe you are right!

Ironically my 3 big pots were k10 and k3 (rivered quads) and my 99>kk on a j92 flop.

 

[MikeMcMann]

There is a certain truth to this, but at the same time you always want the big pairs, obviously. You want the AA v 99 on the 774 boards, or the KK v AQ on the Q73 board. They are a lot easier to play when short stacked or deep stacked. Somewhere round the 100 bb range can make it somewhat awkward.

My KK<A5 was I 4 bet pre in a straddled pot, 1/2/4>14>35. Straddler called. Everyone else folded. Flop he check raised my 40 bet to 90. So with around 175 back I only really have 2 options. I tank called, but contemplated the fold. It was literally my very fist hand.

I got KK four times yesterday and lost with them every time, so maybe you are right!

Ironically my 3 big pots were k10 and k3 (rivered quads) and my 99>kk on a j92 flop.

Small stacked 100%. Big hands all day, shove and pray they hold up.

Big stacks no way. AA or any big hand will get paid a little by 99 who calls pre flop but unless they are bad players, even on a 774 board they are not paying you huge. They test to see if you had AK and missed but otherwise fold. A good player will only pay you a medium amount unless you have been playing loose and showing a lot of bluffs.

When I have a big stack I love playing Phil Hellmuth, Daniel N, style small ball. Lots of smaller pots where I get to battle a guy many hands for smaller pots. LImit the one big 'lucky' or not hand that can make or cripple you. I believe over a number of hands, luck gets reduced and the more skilled player emerges.

As much as it pains me, I do play big pairs "correctly". Depending on the preflop action I will raise enough hoping to isolate one caller only. Then I am betting the flop no matter how it hits. I am calling any 3 bet, just in case the guy is testing if I had a hand like AK and missed and will fold. And I am doing a sizeable bet on the turn to again send the signal I did not miss, so you better you fold.

If the guy calls or re-raises me on the Turn and or River then depending on my knowledge of him (how tight or no, bluffer or not) I may fold or hero call down but not be happy about it.

And if they get me to fold on the Turn or River that was a very expensive hand. And if I hero call down on the River and its that 9/55 with the guy hitting the 5 I am getting wrecked.

 

[LEWIS540]

Small stacked 100%. Big hands all day, shove and pray they hold up.

Big stacks no way. AA or any big hand will get paid a little by 99 who calls pre flop but unless they are bad players, even on a 774 board they are not paying you huge. They test to see if you had AK and missed but otherwise fold. A good player will only pay you a medium amount unless you have been playing loose and showing a lot of bluffs.

When I have a big stack I love playing Phil Hellmuth, Daniel N, style small ball. Lots of smaller pots where I get to battle a guy many hands for smaller pots. LImit the one big 'lucky' or not hand that can make or cripple you. I believe over a number of hands, luck gets reduced and the more skilled player emerges.

As much as it pains me, I do play big pairs "correctly". Depending on the preflop action I will raise enough hoping to isolate one caller only. Then I am betting the flop no matter how it hits. I am calling any 3 bet, just in case the guy is testing if I had a hand like AK and missed and will fold. And I am doing a sizeable bet on the turn to again send the signal I did not miss, so you better you fold.

If the guy calls or re-raises me on the Turn and or River then depending on my knowledge of him (how tight or no, bluffer or not) I may fold or hero call down but not be happy about it.

And if they get me to fold on the Turn or River that was a very expensive hand. And if I hero call down on the River and its that 9/55 with the guy hitting the 5 I am getting wrecked.

If you don't like getting AA and KK playing deep stacked NLH you are probably playing the wrong game, tbh. Yes you will sometimes get cold decked, but you will also be on the right side of big pots more frequently. "With Aces you either win a small pot or lose a big one" is a nice soundbite but it's not really true.

Hellmuth and Negreanu's cash games are not well regarded at all, and haven't been for 15 years.

 

[MikeMcMann]

If you don't like getting AA and KK playing deep stacked NLH you are probably playing the wrong game, tbh. Yes you will sometimes get cold decked, but you will also be on the right side of big pots more frequently. "With Aces you either win a small pot or lose a big one" is a nice soundbite but it's not really true.

Hellmuth and Negreanu's cash games are not well regarded at all, and haven't been for 15 years.

ya i was referring to their tournament games and small ball.

I win a lot at tournies and cash playing my style and sticking to it. I recognize I am not going to win any debates on it though as most love those big pairs. I just don't agree, that many skilled people pay off big pairs big. They typically know the range of hands they are calling pre flop if the big pairs play it 'text book'. They call to suck out and are prepared to fold if they do not.

Few good players will call a preflop 'Big hand' bet that is the range of aa, KK, QQ or AK and go bust calling down or shoving in if they cannot beat one pair, but you will often see those hands feel they have to hero call and go in, just having one pair and losing monster pots.

Anyway, as I said, I know the common wisdom is to want them non stop. I am happy in tournies where I never see them unless I am short stacked. I know playing lots of small ball hands I am very tough to beat.