No Limit Hold 'Em Poker Discussion

[LEWIS540]

4 card Omaha 2/2 extremely deep stacked (everyone involved had 3000+)

I have 7d 7c Kd Ac in middle position

With straddles a preflop action was like 300 in the pot pre, 3 ways.

Flop came 6d 7h 8c. First guy checked. I bet 160. Call. Call.

Turn was 6h. First guy checked. I bet 280. Call. Call.

River was 8c. First guy checked. I bet 750. Third guy called. First guy went all-in for about 2800 effective.

What'd you do? Literally about the weirdest spot I've ever found myself in.

 

[Aurelian]

4 card Omaha 2/2 extremely deep stacked (everyone involved had 3000+)

I have 7d 7c Kd Ac in middle position

With straddles a preflop action was like 300 in the pot pre, 3 ways.

Flop came 6d 7h 8c. First guy checked. I bet 160. Call. Call.

Turn was 6h. First guy checked. I bet 280. Call. Call.

River was 8c. First guy checked. I bet 750. Third guy called. First guy went all-in for about 2800 effective.

What'd you do? Literally about the weirdest spot I've ever found myself in.

Fold pre. 77KA is a trash hand that has horrible reverse implied odds. As much as you hate it, there's a decent chance you're beat. 66, 88, 87, 86 all beat you. If you're gonna bet flop and turn pot it.

If you're gonna play pocket pairs in Omaha, try to play the ones that are TT+. Set over set is super common. People playing hands like 5678, 5689, 4567, 4578, etc etc are also common in Omaha as those are great hands to hit straights with. 77AK is not connected and has very little value in Omaha. I see the K7d is suited but also King high flushes aren't great to play for stacks with.

In my experience, river check-raise jams are almost never bluffs.

 

[LEWIS540]

Fold pre. 77KA is a trash hand that has horrible reverse implied odds. As much as you hate it, there's a decent chance you're beat. 66, 88, 87, 86 all beat you. If you're gonna bet flop and turn pot it.

If you're gonna play pocket pairs in Omaha, try to play the ones that are TT+. Set over set is super common. People playing hands like 5678, 5689, 4567, 4578, etc etc are also common in Omaha as those are great hands to hit straights with. 77AK is not connected and has very little value in Omaha. I see the K7d is suited but also King high flushes aren't great to play for stacks with.

In my experience, river check-raise jams are almost never bluffs.

LOL at fold pre. Great imput.

AK77 double suited ain’t a trash hand in a loose game 2000bb+ deep.

Question isn’t what you would do preflop rather in the situation as presented.

I tank folded, as did button……guy showed the ludicrous AAJ10 bluff.

 

[Aurelian]

LOL at fold pre. Great imput.

AK77 double suited ain’t a trash hand in a loose game 2000bb+ deep.

Question isn’t what you would do preflop rather in the situation as presented.

I tank folded, as did button……guy showed the ludicrous AAJ10 bluff.

Yes fold pre. The reverse implied odds are that bad. In Omaha you should be looking for hands that have connectivity. I didn't see the A7c was suited so it isn't as terrible. AK77 is not a good hand though. Small sets are generally -EV.

Think of it this way, every Omaha hand is equal to 6 different NL hands.

As played I would have c/c flop, pot turn, pot river.

 

[kahiljabroni]

Just wanna add there's an abundance of good poker on TV lately. No gamble, no future is entertaining as hell

 

[Aurelian]

Just wanna add there's an abundance of good poker on TV lately. No gamble, no future is entertaining as hell

NL gets harder and harder every year. People not only have books and calculators at their fingertips but they have solvers to look at as well. If you have the bankroll for it Omaha is much better. People make a lot more frequent mistakes and Omaha is just harder to solve than NL is. Plus Omaha attracts degenerate gamblers.

 

[Michaelangelo]

Prob would snap fold that on the river against a check raise tbh, if he’s bluffing I guess you’ll pick him off later when you have the actual nuts

Also don’t think that hand is a fold 3 ways, should be +EV at roughly 40% equity, although that is against 2 random hands.

 

[LEWIS540]

Yes fold pre. The reverse implied odds are that bad. In Omaha you should be looking for hands that have connectivity. I didn't see the A7c was suited so it isn't as terrible. AK77 is not a good hand though. Small sets are generally -EV.

Think of it this way, every Omaha hand is equal to 6 different NL hands.

As played I would have c/c flop, pot turn, pot river.

Obviously it's not a premium hand, but it's a hand you're happy to see a flop with. But again, that wasn't the question being asked.

When you're playing uber deep stacked in a loose game like we were, playing only the premiums will get you nowhere.....you need to play a fair share of speculative hands.

You sit in a game like that and only play your AAKQ double suited and KQJ10 double suited hands, you're still going to need to be lucky to win and no one's giving you action.

 

[LEWIS540]

Prob would snap fold that on the river against a check raise tbh, if he’s bluffing I guess you’ll pick him off later when you have the actual nuts

Also don’t think that hand is a fold 3 ways, should be +EV at roughly 40% equity, although that is against 2 random hands.

Actually got stacked by the same guy for like 2500 quite soon afterwards when my JJK10 lost all in on a flop of J 7 6.

Yes, it was a pretty wild 2/2 game.

 

[LEWIS540]

NL gets harder and harder every year. People not only have books and calculators at their fingertips but they have solvers to look at as well. If you have the bankroll for it Omaha is much better. People make a lot more frequent mistakes and Omaha is just harder to solve than NL is. Plus Omaha attracts degenerate gamblers.

Whilst probably true, the swings can be massive and the game plays so much bigger than hold em. Obviously long term it should even out, but you can easily find yourself several thousand big blinds down, without doing much wrong. Equities running so close can make it a very painful game even for the very best, as I'm sure you are aware.

Actually find if you play hold em relatively solidly, it's not difficult to grind a profit, though it can become a chore. Still find you tend to get 2-3 fish/drunk/fun players every table. (Playing live not online, obviously).

 

[LEWIS540]

Prob would snap fold that on the river against a check raise tbh, if he’s bluffing I guess you’ll pick him off later when you have the actual nuts

Also don’t think that hand is a fold 3 ways, should be +EV at roughly 40% equity, although that is against 2 random hands.

It's the age old poker dilema.......no way he should be bluffing but equally no way he should be playing his monsters like that, either. The 3rd player calling really changes the dynamic, too.

The double check call, then check raise, 3 ways, is pretty unusual!!!

Didn't mention it but villain definitely has previous as being excessively loose too.

Not being results orientated, but all things considered, I think I should have called.

 

[Aurelian]

Obviously it's not a premium hand, but it's a hand you're happy to see a flop with. But again, that wasn't the question being asked.

When you're playing uber deep stacked in a loose game like we were, playing only the premiums will get you nowhere.....you need to play a fair share of speculative hands.

You sit in a game like that and only play your AAKQ double suited and KQJ10 double suited hands, you're still going to need to be lucky to win and no one's giving you action.

Just curious, how many players were in the game total? Because that does factor into strategy and how you should play. Position also factors in highly how you should play those speculative hands.

I'll admit I missed the A7c being suited, so again, the hand isn't as bad as I originally saw it. K7 suited isn't that terrible either but if someone's trying to play for stacks on a flush board and you're holding a King high flush you don't really feel great about it. I just try to avoid small sets.

 

[Aurelian]

Prob would snap fold that on the river against a check raise tbh, if he’s bluffing I guess you’ll pick him off later when you have the actual nuts

Also don’t think that hand is a fold 3 ways, should be +EV at roughly 40% equity, although that is against 2 random hands.

Yeah I have to imagine anyone who sits down with $3000 and is committing roughly 50 bigs pre they don't have some random bullshit hand. Let's say 4568 all spades and 9TJQ ds are both equity favorites over AK77ds. The 4568 not by much but the 9TJQ ds is 44%. I wasn't there though so I don't know how the game particularly plays.

 

[LEWIS540]

Just curious, how many players were in the game total? Because that does factor into strategy and how you should play. Position also factors in highly how you should play those speculative hands.

I'll admit I missed the A7c being suited, so again, the hand isn't as bad as I originally saw it. K7 suited isn't that terrible either but if someone's trying to play for stacks on a flush board and you're holding a King high flush you don't really feel great about it. I just try to avoid small sets.

I'll say I love playing PLO deep, and I hate playing NL deep, but damn how loose was that game 3 people are getting 50 bigs in pre?

It was a very loose game. Ranging from 6-9 handed over the 6 hours I was in. Can't remember exactly how many in this hand, but I think 7. Was actually dealers choice (holdem, 4c Omaha, 5 card Omaha), but no one was calling holdem.

Nominally was 2/2, but in effect it was 2/2/5 at least, the majority of the time (think only 2 were not straddling, me included). High variance bomb pots every 10 hands, etc.

Obviously a very splashy game. Going 3 or 4 way to the flop with 4/5 bet pre was not unusual. Can't say every pot got crazy, but there were several which did.

Disciplined folds with, say, 8 8 J 10 double suited weren't really a thing!!

Think you alluded to it before, PLO, especially live, tends to attract the gamblers in my experience, whereas holdem you get the more serious types.

 

[Aurelian]

Whilst probably true, the swings can be massive and the game plays so much bigger than hold em. Obviously long term it should even out, but you can easily find yourself several thousand big blinds down, without doing much wrong. Equities running so close can make it a very painful game even for the very best, as I'm sure you are aware.

Actually find if you play hold em relatively solidly, it's not difficult to grind a profit, though it can become a chore. Still find you tend to get 2-3 fish/drunk/fun players every table. (Playing live not online, obviously).

If deep, you can kind of mitigate the downswings in Omaha by not getting super aggressive UTG or UTG+1 and using the pot limit aspect of the game to your advantage. I'm sure you're very well aware of the benefits of using position. I'm much more happier to try to shovel money in on the turn rather than the flop because hand dynamics can change drastically with just 1 card.

I've been using a shortstack strategy lately and having some pretty good results. I've found out that when you buy in for 50 bigs and everyone around you has 100+ you can get your money in good equity situations and fully realize your equity while bigger stacks push each other out. If they try to adjust to you, they fuck themselves with the other stacks so they can't.

 

[LEWIS540]

Yeah I have to imagine anyone who sits down with $3000 and is committing roughly 50 bigs pre they don't have some random bullshit hand. Let's say 4568 all spades and 9TJQ ds are both equity favorites over AK77ds. The 4568 not by much but the 9TJQ ds is 44%. I wasn't there though so I don't know how the game particularly plays.

Actually no one was buying in huge.......think most were buying in for 400-500, but after rebuys etc., was literally close to 20k on the table by the end, I'd guess.

I bought in 300 at the start (first couple of hours was a fairly standard game), ran it up to about 900, then lost that. Bought in for another 500, ran it up to over 4k, then lost that too......remember thinking just before this hand I really should call it a night, but you know how that goes!

 

[LEWIS540]

If deep, you can kind of mitigate the downswings in Omaha by not getting super aggressive UTG or UTG+1 and using the pot limit aspect of the game to your advantage. I'm sure you're very well aware of the benefits of using position. I'm much more happier to try to shovel money in on the turn rather than the flop because hand dynamics can change drastically with just 1 card.

I've been using a shortstack strategy lately and having some pretty good results. I've found out that when you buy in for 50 bigs and everyone around you has 100+ you can get your money in good equity situations and fully realize your equity while bigger stacks push each other out. If they try to adjust to you, they fuck themselves with the other stacks so they can't.

Absolutely.....just sometimes you find yourself in a game that gets out of hand and your strategies go out the window!!!

 

[LEWIS540]

Yeah I have to imagine anyone who sits down with $3000 and is committing roughly 50 bigs pre they don't have some random bullshit hand. Let's say 4568 all spades and 9TJQ ds are both equity favorites over AK77ds. The 4568 not by much but the 9TJQ ds is 44%. I wasn't there though so I don't know how the game particularly plays.

What these descriptions don't tell you is the type of players involved. Villain is very loose (and truth be told, not particularly good).

Not at all the type who slow plays, but not so crazy to just punt a huge stack, neither....I think he just played it pretty poorly, and found me with the sole value hand I could lay down (6 7 too, guess).

3rd guy in the hand, who snap folded, was the spot at the table......fuck knows what he had. You'd think an 8 9 10 type hand which slow played the flop, but truthfully think he'd have called with that.

 

[Aurelian]

What these descriptions don't tell you is the type of players involved. Villain is very loose (and truth be told, not particularly good).

Not at all the type who slow plays, but not so crazy to just punt a huge stack, neither....I think he just played it pretty poorly, and found me with the sole value hand I could lay down (6 7 too, guess).

3rd guy in the hand, who snap folded, was the spot at the table......fuck knows what he had. You'd think an 8 9 10 type hand which slow played the flop, but truthfully think he'd have called with that.

Yeah I think the correct decision there is to just pot river and live with the consequences in the event villain has you beat. You left too big a window open for villain to check raise jam on you. That's more a NL move than an Omaha one though and as I mentioned, check raise river jams are almost never bluffs. Do you think the player just isn't very good at Omaha and is more likely a NL player, or just a degenerate gambler?

Just as a side note, if you pay close enough attention you can kind of tell the people who are more NL players and kind of newish to Omaha and the people who play Omaha all the time. The NL players you can feast on because they'll make more mistakes.

 

[LEWIS540]

Yeah I think the correct decision there is to just pot river and live with the consequences in the event villain has you beat. You left too big a window open for villain to check raise jam on you. That's more a NL move than an Omaha one though and as I mentioned, check raise river jams are almost never bluffs. Do you think the player just isn't very good at Omaha and is more likely a NL player, or just a degenerate gambler?

Just as a side note, if you pay close enough attention you can kind of tell the people who are more NL players and kind of newish to Omaha and the people who play Omaha all the time. The NL players you can feast on because they'll make more mistakes.

Guy is definitely more the gambling type than your studious GTO rock, that's for sure.

I wouldn't say he's a terrible player but not particularly great either. Actually the kind I find it easier to play against, usually. Far too loose and not one to make tough lay downs, which makes the way he played this hand more confusing.