No Limit Hold 'Em Poker Discussion

[Foppa21]

If you are in a tournament and you have less than 10X the BB, you should be shoving on all unopened pots no matter position or your hand. Gus is an amazing player, but that dude swings too hard for my taste when he does have a solid stack. I know he went bust on his bankroll at least a few times.

I was playing in a shit casino in Compton. I think it was called Crystal? I only went once. Anyways, I went for their tournament and made the final table. I was short stacked with just over 10X as the blinds came towards me. UTG I acted like I looked at my cards, I really didn't, and I shoved. The action folds around to the BB and this guy has me covered by about 2X. He struggles for nearly 4 minutes and finally makes the call and flips over AJ off. WTF? That's an instacall? Anyways, I flip over my hand to reveal J4 Spades. Damn... I am crushed. Except, I flopped two spades and rivered the final spade. The guy I beat went crazy. He was so upset. He kept going on and on about what a donk I am. Then he gets knocked out a few hands later and then straight up insults me with what a "fucking idiot asshole" I am. Well, an old Black dude at the table finally can't take it. He was quiet throughout. I personally don't give a shit. But, the old man is all (paraphrase, but close), "look dumbass, that man just gave you a poker lesson and you're too stupid to figure it out. If you don't know why his play was smart, you were lucky to make it to this final table." Sadly, only a few people understood the move, which is shocking. For anyone that doesn't get it, bottom line, you don't wait for the blinds, because all you are doing is winning your own $ back. There's a bit more to it, but that's enough for any logical mind. You better get it all in before the blinds get to you, or you truly are the idiot.

From my limited understanding (it's been a very long time since I've played and I've been trying to get a group to play online over lockdowns), thee shorter your stack the more pot committed you are and the wider the range of hands you have. If you're going to go, go proper

 

[LEWIS540]

If you are in a tournament and you have less than 10X the BB, you should be shoving on all unopened pots no matter position or your hand.

Not played tournaments seriously for a while, but that can’t be right, surely?

15 years ago the ‘rule’ was 10 bb meant you should be looking to get it all in in a good spot pretty soon, but to say move all in in any position with any hand in any unopened pot seems ridiculous.

 

[Whippy McGee]

Not played tournaments seriously for a while, but that can’t be right, surely?

15 years ago the ‘rule’ was 10 bb meant you should be looking to get it all in in a good spot pretty soon, but to say move all in in any position with any hand in any unopened pot seems ridiculous.

All day, especially late in the tournament.

 

[LEWIS540]

All day, especially late in the tournament.

So mid position, you look down at 3 9 off, with 6 bb, with several big stacks to act, the rule is too shove?

I find that very hard to believe.

 

[Whippy McGee]

So mid position, you look down at 3 9 off, with 6 bb, with several big stacks to act, the rule is too shove?

I find that very hard to believe.

If it is an unopened pot, if you are down to 6 BB and you have 4 left to act... yep. You are already marginalized. The exceptions to the rule are if you want to wait another hand for a better holding, but you only have 4 hands left to do something or nearly blind out. The other exception is if there are others just like you and you are looking for a pay jump.

It's a standard rule in tournament play. You have to get your chips in while you still scare the opponents enough to fold. If you waited beyond that point, your toast unless crazy luck for multiple hands to double multiple times.

 

[LEWIS540]

If it is an unopened pot, if you are down to 6 BB and you have 4 left to act... yep. You are already marginalized. The exceptions to the rule are if you want to wait another hand for a better holding, but you only have 4 hands left to do something or nearly blind out. The other exception is if there is others just like you and you are looking for a pay jump.

It's a standard rule in tournament play. You have to get your chips in while you still scare the opponents enough to fold. If you waited beyond that point, your toast unless crazy luck for multiple hands to double multiple times.

That's the point you're not scaring anyone with 6bb, especially if they know you're doing it with any 2, and the ICM consideration is not insignificant.

Been checking this theory out today, and it is definitely not true.

 

[Whippy McGee]

That's the point you're not scaring anyone with 6bb, especially if they know you're doing it with any 2, and the ICM consideration is not insignificant.

Been checking this theory out today, and it is definitely not true.

If you are down to 6BB you already blew it, or just lost pot. This "theory" has been true since NL Holde Em tournaments have been around... at least for the skilled players.

 

[LEWIS540]

If you are down to 6BB you already blew it, or just lost pot. This "theory" has been true since NL Holde Em tournaments have been around... at least for the skilled players.

Show me some examples of skilled players pushing their last 6-10 bb stacks in with 4 J, 3 9, 2 10 etc etc, then. Rare to non-existent.

No logic to push in with utter trash when you have at least a few more chances to get a better spot.

 

[Whippy McGee]

Show me some examples of skilled players pushing their last 6-10 bb stacks in with 4 J, 3 9, 2 10 etc etc, then. Rare to non-existent.

No logic to push in with utter trash when you have at least a few more chances to get a better spot.

If you have 2-3 other hands to decide from, I would fold virtually no suited cards. If I got a J with any other card, I would likely jam. I can see passing on really really bad holding, but most of the time... it's a jam.

Watch some Jonathan Little videos if you want more context on this strategy. This really isn't a debate. No good player blinds out.

 

[LEWIS540]

If you have 2-3 other hands to decide from, I would fold virtually no suited cards. If I got a J with any other card, I would likely jam. I can see passing on really really bad holding, but most of the time... it's a jam.

Watch some Jonathan Little videos if you want more context on this strategy. This really isn't a debate. No good player blinds out.

It's absolutely not blinding out. You can't wait for very long, but you can certainly wait for a few hands to get a better hand/spot.

I'm saying your idea of pushing with every single hand from every single position when 10bb or less in all unopened pot, is clearly not right. This really isn't a debate.

 

[Fugazy]

If you have 2-3 other hands to decide from, I would fold virtually no suited cards. If I got a J with any other card, I would likely jam. I can see passing on really really bad holding, but most of the time... it's a jam.

Watch some Jonathan Little videos if you want more context on this strategy. This really isn't a debate. No good player blinds out.

I dig Jonathan Little. I have a couple of his books. I think the debate here is whether it’s *literally* every single hand.

I do a agree with you that blinding out isn’t acceptable.

 

[Foppa21]

It's absolutely not blinding out. You can't wait for very long, but you can certainly wait for a few hands to get a better hand/spot.

I'm saying your idea of pushing with every single hand from every single position when 10bb or less in all unopened pot, is clearly not right. This really isn't a debate.

I agree. You still have to pick your spots. Your range just opens up. If there's another hand, I'm not pushing with 7-2 off.

 

[LEWIS540]

I dig Jonathan Little. I have a couple of his books. I think the debate here is whether it’s *literally* every single hand.

I do a agree with you that blinding out isn’t acceptable.

I agree. You still have to pick your spots. Your range just opens up. If there's another hand, I'm not pushing with 7-2 off.

It's not even most hands, really. Obviously the closer you are to the button the wider you can push, but say middle position, you're still looking at pairs, big aces, suited aces, 2 picture cards etc.

Likes of K 9 and 7 6 seem like obvious folds still.

 

[LEWIS540]

Watch some Jonathan Little videos if you want more context on this strategy. This really isn't a debate. No good player blinds out.

I dig Jonathan Little. I have a couple of his books.

Always find his videos decent enough, but not particularly groundbreaking, not that I've watched them all......kinda like Negreanu's. Good for beginners and intermediates.

Think the real in depth ones are a bit over my head truth be told. Never really had the inclination to go really deep into the study/"technical" side of the game.

 

[Whippy McGee]

It's absolutely not blinding out. You can't wait for very long, but you can certainly wait for a few hands to get a better hand/spot.

I'm saying your idea of pushing with every single hand from every single position when 10bb or less in all unopened pot, is clearly not right. This really isn't a debate.

You have roughly 1-6 hands to choose your spot. You can punt off a hand or two if you are UTG. But, if you are in mid position and the pots not opened with you that short, you shove with almost anything that's not 72 or a Low Ball "Wheel" holding. Quite often the pots are opened if you are mid or later and you have to toss them in, unless you have a solid hand or an ace. You can't toss even marginally good hands in that spot with an unopened pot. Shove and pray for a folds or good run out.

 

[Whippy McGee]

Always find his videos decent enough, but not particularly groundbreaking, not that I've watched them all......kinda like Negreanu's. Good for beginners and intermediates.

Think the real in depth ones are a bit over my head truth be told. Never really had the inclination to go really deep into the study/"technical" side of the game.

He's O.K. - The best analysis I find is by Bart Hanson CrushLivePoker is the YouTube Channel. But, he's slow and you have to "geek out" to enjoy it. For entertainment value it's Rampage or Brad Owen.

 

[LEWIS540]

You have roughly 1-6 hands to choose your spot. You can punt off a hand or two if you are UTG. But, if you are in mid position and the pots not opened with you that short, you shove with almost anything that's not 72 or a Low Ball "Wheel" holding. Quite often the pots are opened if you are mid or later and you have to toss them in, unless you have a solid hand or an ace. You can't toss even marginally good hands in that spot with an unopened pot. Shove and pray for a folds or good run out.

Well now you're moving the goal posts.

I'd prefer to call off with, say KJ suited in late position, than push with likes of A3 or 44 (let alone your 8 9 etc type hands) in early/mid position, when chances of getting called are very high, not that I wouldn't.

 

[LEWIS540]

He's O.K. - The best analysis I find is by Bart Hanson CrushLivePoker is the YouTube Channel. But, he's slow and you have to "geek out" to enjoy it. For entertainment value it's Rampage or Brad Owen.

Yeah seen those guys.

I'm at the point where I can't be bothered getting into the nuisances of the game. Play relatively low stakes, 1-2 times a week, with mid level players over a few drinks, is what it's about for me.

 

[Foppa21]

Well now you're moving the goal posts.

I'd prefer to call off with, say KJ suited in late position, than push with likes of A3 or 44 (let alone your 8 9 etc type hands) in early/mid position, when chances of getting called are very high, not that I wouldn't.

I don't think you're in much of a position to get too fancy with a call. You're largely pot committed by that stage and better off to push, IMO

 

[LEWIS540]

I don't think you're in much of a position to get too fancy with a call. You're largely pot committed by that stage and better off to push, IMO

Depends.

You're not really looking to just win the blinds, rather than double up......and pushing, say A 6 under the gun is unlikely to achieve that.

.....but yeah, you're basically looking to get lucky, so have to go for it sometimes.