New Video on Explosive Power

[miaou]

There is also no such thing as lactic acid in the human body

Please embellish?

 

[EZA]

"My argument is there is a limit to your Force Rate that you can reach with a given limit strength. And, if you do endurance training, your Force Rate will be diminished. Then the athletes dilemma (which you will probably address in the next vid) is how to balance the two"

Not really, rate of force development is mostly an independent quality of maximum force as I've said. You see this most pronounced in very unweighted movements such as in boxing and striking skills.

The rate of the force developed is purely a function of the nervous system and the maximum shortening velocity of the fiber. The maximum force a fiber is capable of, on the other hand, is directly related to its cross sectional area, which has nothing to do with the shortening velocity.

When you look at maximum strength and rate of force development in the real world, the correlation that you do see is that both do require high levels of nervous system development because you have to be able to activate a lot of fibers at the same time in the right sequence to create a lot of force. This means there may be some carryover effect in that people with great nervous systems are likely capable of both, but they are still independent variables from one another.

As far as lactic acid A) Lactate and hydrogen ions dissociate at blood pH levels almost instantly, people still use the term lacic acid but really it's lactate and hydrogen ions they are talking about. B) lactate itself is an energy substrate and C) there is conflicting research these days about whether the drop in acidity within the muscle cells actually causes or prevents fatigue. It may turn out that the H+ ions actually play a role in preventing fatigue rather than causing it as people have always thought.

 

[Dogstarman]

Thanks for this information.

 

[EZA]

This depends of the speed / length of time of the movement being considered. If we were to compare RFD in someone throwing a javelin, compared to a shotput, we wouldn't see a strong correlation between the RFD of the person throwing the javelin and max strength, but we would see a strong correlation for the person throwing the shot put.

No, what you're missing here is that the increased correlation between someone throwing the shot and maximum strength is the amount of mass (M) being moved to generate the momentum that gets transferred into the object and the greater mass of the projectile itself. A greater level of force is being developed and thus there is a greater correlation to maximum strength. The greater the resistance, the more max strength is going to correlate to power because you'll have to achieve a higher level of force. In unweighted movements, however, the time period is too short and there is not enough resistance for maximum strength to really play any role.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

LOL, poor Joel. You guys are so rough on him every time he pops by.

Keep it up, Mr. Jamieson. You're doing great work.

 

[DrBdan]

LOL, poor Joel. You guys are so rough on him every time he pops by.

Keep it up, Mr. Jamieson. You're doing great work.

Gotta keep him on his toes I'm glad that Joel posts here and I'm glad that people challenge him, it makes for interesting threads.

 

[EZA]

I don't mind people challenging me, it makes it more interesting. If people disagree with anything I have to say they are more than welcome to share why. The second video I'll be putting up next week will have a lot more in depth information and I'm going to cover a lot more on how to actually improve explosive power.

Aside from that, if anyone here reads Muscle & Fitness (yeah yeah I know) there's a two page story on me in this month's issue.

 

[Tosa]

As far as lactic acid A) Lactate and hydrogen ions dissociate at blood pH levels almost instantly, people still use the term lacic acid but really it's lactate and hydrogen ions they are talking about. B) lactate itself is an energy substrate and C) there is conflicting research these days about whether the drop in acidity within the muscle cells actually causes or prevents fatigue. It may turn out that the H+ ions actually play a role in preventing fatigue rather than causing it as people have always thought.

It may not exist as lactic acid in the blood, but that's different then it not existing in the human body at all.

No, what you're missing here is that the increased correlation between someone throwing the shot and maximum strength is the amount of mass (M) being moved to generate the momentum that gets transferred into the object and the greater mass of the projectile itself. A greater level of force is being developed and thus there is a greater correlation to maximum strength. The greater the resistance, the more max strength is going to correlate to power because you'll have to achieve a higher level of force. In unweighted movements, however, the time period is too short and there is not enough resistance for maximum strength to really play any role.

Influence of maximal muscle strength and intrinsic... [Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006] - PubMed result

Ie. in quciker movements, like unweighted ones, there's little correlation between RFD and maximal strength. But in weighted ones, like a shot put, since the movement takes more time, there is a correlation.

 

[EZA]

If lactate and H+ dissociate at soon as it's produced at blood pH as soon as they form, then it's basically just an argument of semantics. You're always going to have blood flowing to a working muscle.

Your study repeated what I already said, the greater the resistance, the greater the level of force, the greater the involvement of maximum strength. The RFD in this scenario also plays a smaller role in the power output as a whole as the role of max strength increases.

As far as correlation to maximum strength and rate of force development, yes the correlation will increase as times goes on simply because you're talking about greater force levels, but they are still independently trainable variables. The RFD is also lower as time increases. There are plenty of studies showing a lower correlation than this one, even in longer time periods, I'll dig around later and cite some of them. You also have to be mindful when looking at studies that were performed under isometric conditions and extrapolating them out to dynamic actions. The power output = 0 in such cases.

 

[Tosa]

If lactate and H+ dissociate at soon as it's produced at blood pH as soon as they form, then it's basically just an argument of semantics. You're always going to have blood flowing to a working muscle.

But not inside the cells, where lactic acid is a component of significant processes. Which is very different than it not existing inside the human body at all.

As far as correlation to maximum strength and rate of force development, yes the correlation will increase as times goes on simply because you're talking about greater force levels, but they are still independently trainable variables.

Never said they weren't idependently trainable...just correlated in certain conditions.

 

[EZA]

But not inside the cells, where lactic acid is a component of significant processes. Which is very different than it not existing inside the human body at all.



Never said they weren't idependently trainable...just correlated in certain conditions.

So you're saying the pH within the muscle cell is going to be significantly higher than blood? Aside from that, what is it you think lactic acid does exactly?

 

[Cratos]

Forbidden Topics:

Any thread selling the starter's goods and/or Services - you need to pay to advertise on sherdog. So if you're a personal trainer or if you're offering internet correspondence training, or you have the secret enema formula that will triple your deadlift: if it aint free, you can't start a thread trying to sell it.

 

[Fedorable]

spam.

 

[EZA]

I would agree...if I were linking to a sales page that offers nothing but a sales pitch. When I'm putting up 2 or 3 videos on the exact subject of this discussion board that contain information that the vast majority of people here will consider valuable and relevent, it's hardly spam or a forbidden topic.

I'll also have some articles and/or videos up on the strength and conditioning part of this website under the MMA Training section shortly, would that also be spam because I'll have a link to my website where I sell my book?

 

[Tosa]

So you're saying the pH within the muscle cell is going to be significantly higher than blood? Aside from that, what is it you think lactic acid does exactly?

Lactic acid is a weak acid, and doesn't dissociate entirely. It exists as an equilibrium between lactate and lactic acid. The higher the pH, the greater the equilibruim tends towards lactate. And the pH in muscle cells is lower than in Blood, so there'll be more lactic acid, and less lactate. Furthermore, lactic acid cannot pass through cell membranes in the form of lactate.
LACTIC ACID - lactic acid & lactate

In the Cori cycle:
Under Anaerobic conditions pyruvic acid is converted to lactic acid in muscle cells, which allows for further glycolsis, travels through the blood as primarily as lactate, and is converted back into pyruvic acid in liver cells, which allows the liver to share the metabolic burden.

 

[Searcher]

What place would limit strength have in a fighters training then if any?

 

[EZA]

Greater than 95% of lactic acid dissociates as soon as it's produced in the muscle cell, I probably should have been more clear in that it does exist in the human body, but not in meaningful amounts and it's not responsible for fatigue. I'll post more references on this later. The exact mechanisms of lactate shuttling are not entirely agreed upon and the subject of debate in the research, just look at discussions on lactate shuttle.

Pyruvate + NADH + H+ <=> Lactate + NAD+

"This reaction is so rapid that pyruvate and lactate can be considered to be always in an equilibrium situation. Normally the ratio of lactate to pyruvate in the cell is 10 to 1. The ratio [NADH]/[NAD+] by the Law of Mass Action determines the balance between lactate and pyruvate. This ratio is also used to denote the redox state within the cytoplasm. Lactic acid has a pK value of about 4 so it is fully dissociated into lactate and H+ at body pH. In the extracellular fluid, the H+ titrates bicarbonate on a one for one basis."

8.1 Lactic Acidosis


Limit strength plays a role in improving nervous system function as a whole and takes on a greater importance for the higher resistance aspects of MMA such as those in wrestling and grappling skills.

 

[DragonofMetsu]

Wow, only Joel brings out the armchair Ph.d's en masse, I'm surprised Barut hasn't shown up yet, haha

 

[miaou]

If lactate and H+ dissociate at soon as it's produced at blood pH as soon as they form, then it's basically just an argument of semantics.

It is indeed an argument on semantics, but it's one you started (by stating "there is no such thing...").


So is the argument on the role of lactic acid, btw. Whether it is the cause or the result of fatigue, doesn't change the fact that it is strongly correlated with and a good indicator of fatigue. And that is really all you need to work with in practical terms.

 

[EZA]

Actually, now that I've reviewed some of the research I did when writing my book, I will go back to my original statement that lactic acid is not produced in the body at all. Period. I should have looked back through my notes before expanding upon why I said lactic acid is not produced in the body. It's been awhile since I dug through all the research.

The most current line of thinking in the research field, though I'll admit it's still being debated by a few academics, is that lactic acid is not produced in the body at all and the production of H+ ions come from further up the chain in the hydrolysis of ATP --- ADP + P. The LDH reaction does not result in a net release of protons, but instead actually consumes a proton and thus delays muscular acidosis rather than causing it. In other words, lactic acid is never formed in the muscle and the production of lactate delays fatigue rather than causing it.

This belief was formed from mistakes in the stoichiometry of past research. The biochemistry and evidence presented by Robergs, et al. was convincing when I looked thoroughly through all of it awhile back.

Feel free to review his evidence and point out where he's wrong: Biochemistry of Exercise-Induced Metabolic Acidosis

In other words, lactate production doesn't cause or result from fatigue, it's chemical reaction actually helps prevent it. I would also say that whlie yes it does correlate to fatigue because it accompanies in increased reliance on the lactic and alactic systems in relationship to the oxidative system, understanding the difference can influence how training is approached so it is important to understand.

There is a world of difference in believing that you should train to maximize tolerance to "lactic acid" as the best way to prevent fatigue because its production is responsible for it, as opposed to understanding that lactate production actually helps prevent it and the fatigue is the result of the non mitochondrial ATP turnover of anaerobic metabolism.

In the first case, you will likely believe that the best strategy is to increase tolerance to acidosis to prevent fatigue while in the second case you will understand that the best way to increase capacity for anaerobic energy production before fatigue is actually to improve oxidative metabolism. Since the acid released in the hydrolysis of ATP can be metabolized in the mitochondria, increased oxidative metabolism can improve anaerobic performance.

These are two very different strategies and require different approaches to training. This means that is important to say more than just lactate accumulation correlates with fatigue and leave it at that and more than just an argument over semantics.