New to BJJ...How hard should I roll ?? (old thread, 2010)

[jack36767]

I've trained with two former NFL players. Talk about athletic.

The guys typically do BJJ very casually though and don't want to compete. I never asked about it really, but I can imagine that after you've been paid millions of dollars to play in the NFL before 50K screaming fans, paying $80 to do your local NAGA at white belt might not really be that attractive.

Oh I'm well aware of the incentives and culture involved, it was very very informing being around a high school football program in the south with multiple DI and DI aa athletes who came from rough backgrounds as well as being around the football players in college

My point was more about "showing" people what actual high level athletes who are gifted enough to get paid either in college (DI college sports are a job, don't let anyone tell you different, the pay incentives are just different) or pro and what the food chain is really like. If those type of athletes for whatever reason started training bjj and were allowed to train.. it literally would be impossible to keep some of the narratives "martial arts" sell

 

[jack36767]

Is it possible you don't know how hard you are rolling?

Lately I've been thinking that's true for me. I always try to stay very relaxed, and I roll with a lot less intensity than I used to because I am old. But I used to go balls to the wall, so I think I might be under-estimating my current intensity.

I have a pretty good idea of how hard I'm rolling and I know how to "spar" or flow rolling for wrestling properly. Like I've said, I've been in rolls where I was going too hard for hobbyists. This wasn't like that, being told that I'm scrambling and exploding when I'm hitting pure bjj slow guard passes is annoying

 

[mike sherry]

are the guys there able to handle you? if yes, you are probably spazzing or muscling . if not, you're probably at a mcdojo

+1 to Baltos post

 

[jack36767]

are the guys there able to handle you? if yes, you are probably spazzing or muscling . if not, you're probably at a mcdojo

+1 to Baltos post

Like I said, rolling with a a bigger blue belt, using jui-jitsu when rolling and doing my best to ride out and cook him because he was spazzing and bucking so hard. In fact at the end he reversed me and caught me in an armbar and I tapped because its training. ive been shown by higherbbelts how to roll when i started bjj

 

[Dirty Holt]

Did he specifically say you are rolling too hard, or did he say you need to flow more? There is a gigantic difference. Just sitting there, holding position, and shutting down a roll against someone who is desperately trying to get moving takes both a huge amount of wrestling and athleticism.

Let me ask you this: In these rolls you felt you were unjustly called out, how many times did you get to mount? How many times did you get to back? How many times did you get to a strangle or choke? If you are 100% honest, my guess is very few.

 

[jack36767]

Did he specifically say you are rolling too hard, or did he say you need to flow more? There is a gigantic difference. Just sitting there, holding position, and shutting down a roll against someone who is desperately trying to get moving takes both a huge amount of wrestling and athleticism.

Let me ask you this: In these rolls you felt you were unjustly called out, how many times did you get to mount? How many times did you get to back? How many times did you get to a strangle or choke? If you are 100% honest, my guess is very few.

The ones in the past very few, and higher belts educated or rolled with me if I did get too intense to show me what was up till I learned, the roll that made me post was not like that, passed to mount 2-3 times took the back twice, threatened an armbar, and a couple times reset to pass again rather than riding side control. Like I said it was weird. I'm aware I wasn't perfect in the early rolls but the ones that were annoying were by lower belts. Like I said, the vibe was weird but I'm trying it out a couple more times before deciding

 

[SummerStriker]

On a side note note, I wish more former college football and basketball players would get into bjj and mma. That way the stupid fucks can see some real athletes and stop whining about the "athlete" wrestlers . Though the martial arts jargon and excuse making would be funny

We had a 17 year old highschool football player training with us. He weighed in about 200 pounds. He'd probably fight at like, 170 or something if he wanted to.

He was going with a guy who wasn't really showing him much respect on account of the 10 year age gap and 15 years of martial arts, mma, grappling, the whole thing. I told him he didn't have to hold back so much when going for a takedown. He looked at me like I was crazy, because he knew that the guy he was with wasn't shit by comparison. He hit this dude with a double leg so hard that he beat his complete sprawl, from almost belly down to side control. He had to hold back with expert martial artists.

I can deadlift about 300 pounds and I'm routinely the strongest person in gyms I visit. I have, on occasion, been manhandled by some competitors like a child. A lot of people don't really understand how vast the difference in capability is between athletes and regular people.

 

[SummerStriker]

Is it possible you don't know how hard you are rolling?

Lately I've been thinking that's true for me. I always try to stay very relaxed, and I roll with a lot less intensity than I used to because I am old. But I used to go balls to the wall, so I think I might be under-estimating my current intensity.

If someone does a move right but you can just make them fail by flexing, you are suppose to let them do the move.

 

[fanboysareevil]

You guys are making things weird and harder than they need to be.

When you roll with people who are at a physical disadvantage, don't use more force than they are capable of and don't set a pace they can't maintain. Generally match intensity. Otherwise you won't get as much out of it. That's....kinda it. It doesn't need to be a lot more complicated.

 

[Calibur]

You guys are making things weird and harder than they need to be.

When you roll with people who are at a physical disadvantage, don't use more force than they are capable of and don't set a pace they can't maintain. Generally match intensity. Otherwise you won't get as much out of it. That's....kinda it. It doesn't need to be a lot more complicated.

If I just sat there and went as low paced as the other person wanted nothing would get done.

BJJ only works because you can train with intensity without hurting other people. If you take away that aspect you have Aikido. A thing where everything works on paper but only when your opponent moves the way you want them to move.

 

[yetanother]

If those type of athletes for whatever reason started training bjj and were allowed to train.. it literally would be impossible to keep some of the narratives "martial arts" sell

If you are training with self defense bjj types they would just claim that athleticism might work on the mat but is useless on the street.
The serious sport guys are accepting of using strength.

http://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/great-britain-basketball-team-captain-competes-in-bjj/ - the Great Britain basketball captain claim he gained 10-12lbs of muscle from bjj so it doesn't seem he was rolling particularly light.

 

[rmongler]

they would just claim that athleticism might work on the mat but is useless on the street.

That's an interesting thing to claim considering its pretty much exactly backwards in reality.

 

[jack36767]

If you are training with self defense bjj types they would just claim that athleticism might work on the mat but is useless on the street.
The serious sport guys are accepting of using strength.

http://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/great-britain-basketball-team-captain-competes-in-bjj/ - the Great Britain basketball captain claim he gained 10-12lbs of muscle from bjj so it doesn't seem he was rolling particularly light.

Yeah I see your point and honestly I think that's what it is,it's a self defense gym FIRST rather than part of a sport curriculum. My first instructor taught basic self defense principles but also trained sport hard and had a competitive group of guys, "sports" bjj ironically in some ways has become closer to real fighting. Or rather the mentality and physical assets needed to be successful at fighting than self defense.


On a side note, after working security at concerts, venues, and festivals for several years among other things. The willingness to do physical harm and not care if you do is the most important factor, because if you're in a situation that can't be deescalated, run away from or just hold the person down till help arrives, sudden brutal violence is the only thing that might save you. That's why I'd rather train sport bjj or wrestling smartly but hard than do self defense kata

 

[CFGroup]

Sometimes coaches see more in u than the people u r training with.

Sometimes u have more in u than the people u train with!

Coming from Collage level sports my teachers expected much more from me and the top athletic guys in our school.

So someone might be "spazing" out in your roll, but your coach might be seeing your ability to relax and use superior technique to neutralize it.

Think of it as a complement and something to work to achieving if you really trust your coach and know they can see your potential.

 

[Shaboomba]

LOL at the guy said he's routinely the strongest guy at the gym with a 300 lb deadlift...

 

[Daniel Fox]

Obviously, none of us were there so we do not know what exactly happened, but I do not understand why people automatically assume that Jack36767 was spazzing out, or just grabbing a position and just holding it. I have experienced what he is describing, it happend to me and a good friend of mine as well. We both come from wrestling backgrounds, I have Judo experience and he has Sambo experience, so we did pretty well against guys who were higher ranked than us (and frankly we should have done well because, although we weren't BJJ guys, we have been grappling longer than most of the people in the room). Although no one said much to us you could clearly see that they did not want us there. If anything, since I was in a new Gym, I was rolling extra cautiously than when I wrestle and nobody was getting hurt. Both myself and my friend ended up leaving a short while after because it was clear that we were not welcome. I truly believe it had nothing to do with our actions, rather it had more to do with the fact that we were wearing white belts and were still doing well against more advanced belts. In my case I think it was the gigantic egos of the people at the school. There are exceptions to the rule, and I am sure there are many open minded BJJ schools and instructors, however I have found many BJJ schools and Instructors are very anti wrestling. Furthermore I find it funny that many of those same people will constantly talk about "leaving your ego at the door", while realistically if their ego were an inanimate object they wouldn't be able to fit it in the door of their gym.

Jack36767's story sounds believable to me.

 

[yetanother]

LOL at the guy said he's routinely the strongest guy at the gym with a 300 lb deadlift...

Wouldn't that make her the strongest girl in the women's class?

 

[Dogstarman]

That's the weird thing, it was a midday class with mostly self defense and technique with one roll at the end with the lower belt and the head guy who watching like he was worried the whole time, like I said, if I was rolling hard or hitting crazy scrambles or muscling through stuff or beating up on smaller/same sized noob I wouldn't say anything. But the entire time there was a weird vibe like don't hurt anyone wrassler,

That self defense thing gives me a weird vibe. I would look for a different gym bro. I don't know anything about your school maybe it's legit but there are some red flags there.

 

[JagRoss]

@jack36767

When I roll now, I do a lot of half guard. I get the darce killer sweep on people at every gym I visit. I get it on purple belts. I get it on people bigger than myself. I get it all the time. I get it because people think you are suppose to wizzer all underhooks no matter what, and that I'm able to roll them over because of the advantage my fatness gives me. Most people are not capable of understanding the darce killer sweep unless it is explained with the authority of a black belt. They will just feed it over and over and over like broken robots, because someone with authority told them to always put the wizzer on all underhooks. They'd rather tell me to "use technique" than size. Then they'll feed the same stupid sweep again.

What's the darce killer sweep?

Is it the backroll sweep from dogfight, trapping the overhook?

 

[SummerStriker]

What's the darce killer sweep?

Is it the backroll sweep from dogfight, trapping the overhook?

Yeah, but you don't have to be in dogfight. If you have good posture from conventional halfguard and they overhook your arm as if going for a darce, you can do the same roll. It's lower impact but works pretty well.